Aren't we all ...Astrologer51/50 ?

Ben · Jan 16, 2012

ReincarnatedRainbow said:
Okay...But why? I get people not wanting to stand up for somebody, because it could get them in trouble too, but they don't have to alienate them.

The isolation technique works because modern humans fear being "alone"/isolated from society - it is human nature to "hunt with the hounds and run with the fox".

So - why? = to avoid becoming isolated themselves.

And are the moderators really so immature that they would pick fights with members just to isolate them?

"Immature" is not the right word to describe it, and I doubt that the isolation technique would ever be used by any current Moderator other than I AM A&M.
He uses the technique because he genuinely believes it is the right thing to do - so, instead of immature, I would use "controlling" (or perhaps "misguided") - BUT of course, he would also apply those words to me (because we each a "mirror" trying to shine a light on the other's shadow [on this particular issue].)

Nor does He "pick fights with members to isolate them" - It is rather that he isolates members whom he considers to be picking fights with him - (In that respect, He and I differ only in our interpretation of what "picking fights" involves.)

My view is that neither His nor my beliefs on this issue are "wholly" correct - but neither of us can yet see something in ourself that the other can see all too clearly.

Ben

Ben · Jan 17, 2012

sethi said:
She had her own problems, always trying to bully people, always trying to force her method on other people, and arguing constantly.

She argued with those who held astrological views or opinions that she disagreed with - And, with regard to that, the ONLY issue is that she was unable to "agree to disagree".

Look if someone has asked you not to comment on them, or to let the questioner decide on whats suits them better , then you should respect that.

Yes - On the other hand though, I recently posted a thread here requesting Members NOT to post on it and post #2 was made by a Member mocking the whole context of the thread - And he is deemed to be "one of the good guys, who are easy to get along with" at AW.

What constitutes RESPECT upon this forum seems to vary significantly according to the popularity/likeability of the Member giving (or not giving) it, and the popularity/likeability of the Member being given (or not given) it.

She would also indirectly attack people by saying (many times in many threads) that "
you have to take people comments / predictions with a grain of salt as not many are using correct method" . Her method.

Her method - and her OPINION.

She was always trying to act as a moderator / administrator, while she was neither.

She was not the only Member of AW doing that.

Having been on the receiving end many times, and thinking that this was not a fair world where forum trolls are allowed free reign just because they have some knowledge, I would think that her banning was totally justified, but very late in coming.

We must agree to disagree about the justification and timing of her banning.

She also used to throw her knowledge about some persons stars and configurations in his face too. She has done this to me and also to Rapt reverie as far as I know. Using someones natal placements and using it in arguments like "oh you are like this because your so and so is placed in square / opposition and thats why you are like this, while mine are in a very good position" thing. What do you think that is this a good behaviour?. I really don't think so.

That was HER way of explaining how the individual's "issues" are shown in their chart, so that they could use the information to monitor their behaviour during relevant progressions and transits in order to learn about and correct that behaviour.

Her intention WAS extremely good behaviour in a world where the majority of people are driven solely by self-interest - In practice, her intention was MISUNDERSTOOD because "using astrology for self-improvement" is very much a "modern astrology" concept - and (imo) the majority of Members at AW are interested primarily in the concept of "using astrology for prediction" (where Traditional Astrology techiques beat those of Modern Astrology "hands-down").

But you have got to give her credit, as I have seen on many threads that she would be fighting alone (mostly) will all the people in the specific thread, and being on the upper / winning end, so she's got guts

It wasn't just guts, Sethi - Fighting for survival was ingrained in her during childhood - (as the modern[psychological astrolgers here will have been aware - but, I do not know if traditional astrolgy techniques will have revealed that to the same extent).

It is precisely because that childhood background was clearly revealed by her on this site that I believe AW was wrong to permanently ban her - But, the rule is *there must be consequences at AW for the unacceptable behaviour of it's members - and the subsequent consequencies in the outside world for those "exiles" is of no concern to anyone here - (because our Moderators ALWAYS do the right thing

)*

Ben

piercethevale · Jan 17, 2012

....

Oh Suffern Suffragettes...Already...OY VEY!!!!!

sethi · Jan 17, 2012

Well I have never encountered any person trying to act like a moderator / administrator on any of my threads other than A50, so there I may not agree with you.

Sometimes I felt that she was always searching the forum for my posts so that she could specifically criticize them for one thing or the other.

Also at first she used to say that you cannot give timings in western astrology and used to criticize me, and then later on started giving timing herself too.

she was widely judged as a forum troll not just by me, but also by other members.

As far as I remember, one old member was leaving just because of her attacks on her. And she was tired and she could not understand why the moderators were allowing it.

I saved up all the relevant fights with a50 mostly. They are quite spicy I think . But I missed some because they got deleted before I had the time to copy them.

So what I am saying , I can prove too.

Ben pls note that I have just replied where A50 was concerned, and what happened to A50 was in fact late in coming. Why, well the moderators know best, maybe they allowed her because she had some knowledge (mostly copy and paste type), and while not actually giving her views on some points , but just giving relevant links. But most of the time people do not have time for the same.

I think that she also had some delusional ideas about herself as a moderator / administrator, and I remember that I had myself reminded her quite a number of times that she was not one, to no avail.

Ben · Jan 17, 2012

sethi said:
Well I have never encountered any person trying to act like a moderator / administrator on any of my threads other than A50, so there I may not agree with you.

Sometimes I felt that she was always searching the forum for my posts so that she could specifically criticize them for one thing or the other.

Also at first she used to say that you cannot give timings in western astrology and used to criticize me, and then later on started giving timing herself too.

she was widely judged as a forum troll not just by me, but also by other members.

As far as I remember, one old member was leaving just because of her attacks on her. And she was tired and she could not understand why the moderators were allowing it.

I saved up all the relevant fights with a50 mostly. They are quite spicy I think . But I missed some because they got deleted before I had the time to copy them.

So what I am saying , I can prove too.

Ben pls note that I have just replied where A50 was concerned, and what happened to A50 was in fact late in coming. Why, well the moderators know best, maybe they allowed her because she had some knowledge (mostly copy and paste type), and while not actually giving her views on some points , but just giving relevant links. But most of the time people do not have time for the same.

I think that she also had some delusional ideas about herself as a moderator / administrator, and I remember that I had myself reminded her quite a number of times that she was not one, to no avail.

I understand your view/opinion, Sethi - But this is one of those times when we really CAN only "agree to disagree".

Ben

beginner · Jan 17, 2012

I really miss A50, she was the one out of 2-3 members who post some useful comments.
She helped me a lot in learning and she always make correction in my reading.
Miss U A50. U r really a great teacher.

ReincarnatedRainbow · Jan 17, 2012

Ben said:
So - why? = to avoid becoming isolated themselves.

There is only one of him and a whole bunch of members who wouldn't have to worry about bein g isolated if they had the guts to not just follow everyone else. They say Internet makes people braver, but obviously not the majority.

Ben said:
"Immature" is not the right word to describe it, and I doubt that the isolation technique would ever be used by any current Moderator other than I AM A&M.

He uses the technique because he genuinely believes it is the right thing to do - so, instead of immature, I would use "controlling" (or perhaps "misguided") - BUT of course, he would also apply those words to me (because we each a "mirror" trying to shine a light on the other's shadow [on this particular issue].)

If you have control issues to the point where they carry onto the virtual world then that shows that you are not mature. Immature doesn't always have to mean childish. It can also mean lacking the ability to think like a mature, capable adult.

ReincarnatedRainbow · Jan 17, 2012

Based on everybody's mixed opinions of astrology50 it sounds like she was a very immature, mean person who was popular with people because of her mean spirit as well her good reputation for replying to threads that no one else paid any attention to.

I've never viewed having a bad life as an excuse to hurt others. I've viewed as a reason, but not an excuse. Everybody has their share of pain, but not everybody chooses to take out that pain on others. For example, I have a step mother who, like everyone else, has her flaws. But she is one of the most kind hearted people I've ever met. My step mother was severly abused by her mom, and was also terrorized by her mom's mnay boyfriends when she was growing up. Till this day she is STILL hurt again and again by her mom, but instead of becoming bitter, my step mom became the most understanding, caring woman I know. You shouldn't pity mean people who were abused, but scold them for letting themselves abuse others, too.

Again, I'm not trying to attack a50. I'm sure she had her virtues. But I think that it's stupid to act as if her behavior was acceptable simply because she had a hard life.

Ben · Jan 17, 2012

ReincarnatedRainbow said:
There is only one of him and a whole bunch of members who wouldn't have to worry about being isolated if they had the guts to not just follow everyone else. They say Internet makes people braver, but obviously not the majority.

It's not the kind of "fear" one overcomes through physically confronting a person or group - It's the fear of finding ourselves "standing alone", which we (perhaps subconsciously) avoid by "not seeing" the things which might require us to do that.

If you have control issues to the point where they carry onto the virtual world then that shows that you are not mature. Immature doesn't always have to mean childish. It can also mean lacking the ability to think like a mature, capable adult.

By that definition - immature IS the right word.

Ben

SniperBomber328 · Jan 17, 2012

Funny I always almost thought Immature meant someone who virtually cannot control their emotions to an upsubstantial rate, causing them to come off as childish or foolish in manner.

Much like an arrogant hothead who seems immature when angry, and in an argument -as a result - they say anything that comes to their mind, despite the fact that it may or may not make sense. By the way, what I just posted was a run on sentence.....sorry.

Loneliness in-of-itself is a fear everyone secretly....fears.

Ben · Jan 17, 2012

ReincarnatedRainbow said:
Based on everybody's mixed opinions of astrology50 it sounds like she was a very immature, mean person who was popular with people because of her mean spirit as well her good reputation for replying to threads that no one else paid any attention to.

She is NOT mean-spirited at all - and was liked by those who could see that through the harsh exterior she instinctively projected - But, not everyone sees it, because the fight-for-your-life environment in which she was raised from birth has left her deep-within the protective shield that she had to create to survive.

I was also raised in a UK Inner City - so, know from first-hand experience how difficult it is for her to allow anyone to get past that "shield of survival".

I've never viewed having a bad life as an excuse to hurt others.

She sees herself as helping others - rather than hurting them.
And she sees herself as defensive in the face of attacks from others - rather than attacking them.
So, it's a problem of self-perception rather than aggression.

I've viewed as a reason, but not an excuse. Everybody has their share of pain, but not everybody chooses to take out that pain on others.

She does not take her pain out on others - She keeps that way-down inside, where it never sees the light of day.

For example, I have a step mother who, like everyone else, has her flaws. But she is one of the most kind hearted people I've ever met.

So is astrologer 50.

My step mother was severly abused by her mom, and was also terrorized by her mom's many boyfriends when she was growing up. Till this day she is STILL hurt again and again by her mom, but instead of becoming bitter, my step mom became the most understanding, caring woman I know. You shouldn't pity mean people who were abused, but scold them for letting themselves abuse others, too.

It's not pity - It's compassion - Accepting the faults she cannot see, whilst doing everything possible to help her see and overcome them.

Again, I'm not trying to attack a50. I'm sure she had her virtues. But I think that it's stupid to act as if her behavior was acceptable simply because she had a hard life.

You are not the first person to accuse me of being "stupid" in that respect - However, I have never regarded her behaviour as acceptable - but have always accepted that she is not yet able to do anything about it.

Ben

ReincarnatedRainbow · Jan 17, 2012

Ben said:
She is NOT mean-spirited at all - and was liked by those who could see that through the harsh exterior she instinctively projected - But, not everyone sees it, because the fight-for-your-life environment in which she was raised from birth has left her deep-within the protective shield that she had to create to survive.

Because of her unwillingness to see her faults and to be more aware of others' feelings, she doesn't need to be a mean spirited in order to be mean, though.

Ben said:
I was also raised in a UK Inner City - so, know from first-hand experience how difficult it is for her to allow anyone to get past that "shield of survival".

What I get from this is that it's okay to be over defensive and attacxk others as long as your location implies rough life growing up.

Ben said:
She sees herself as helping others - rather than hurting them.
And she sees herself as defensive in the face of attacks from others - rather than attacking them.
So, it's a problem of self-perception rather than aggression.

I'm sure people have brought it to her attention many times both in the virtual and "real" world that she is aggressive and hurtful to others. If I were told that I'd try to change that. She hasn't made any efforts to step outside herself and realize that she is coming off as a *****, to speak plainly.

Ben said:
She does not take her pain out on others - She keeps that way-down inside, where it never sees the light of day.

So then she was just mean to people out of an instinct caused by living in the inner city of UK?

Ben said:
It's not pity - It's compassion - Accepting the faults she cannot see, whilst doing everything possible to help her see and overcome them.

Pity, compassion. It all stems from a feeling of protectiveness caused by sadness.

Ben said:
You are not the first person to accuse me of being "stupid" in that respect - However, I have never regarded her behaviour as acceptable - but have always accepted that she is not yet able to do anything about it.

She is plenty able. It's not a matter of ability, it's matter of consideration and humility.

ReincarnatedRainbow · Jan 17, 2012

Ben said:
It's not the kind of "fear" one overcomes through physically confronting a person or group - It's the fear of finding ourselves "standing alone", which we (perhaps subconsciously) avoid by "not seeing" the things which might require us to do that.

But if people realized that there is only ONE him and a bunch of themselves who are against isolating somebody as well, then there wouldn't be any worrying about being outcasted.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too sensitive on that topic, but I can't stand bullying.

Ben said:
By that definition - immature IS the right word.

lilithofeden · Jan 18, 2012

I have never felt threatened or insulted by her. Most of the time she was the only (or first) person who commented on my posts giving me info and bringing my dead post to life. I couldn't believe she was banned and I do miss her

Ben · Jan 18, 2012

ReincarnatedRainbow said:
Because of her unwillingness to see her faults and to be more aware of others' feelings, she doesn't need to be a mean spirited in order to be mean, though.

I believe it is the intent motivating a person's behaviour that determines whether or not it is mean-spirited - So, I do not consider astrologer 50 (or her behaviour) to be mean.

For example - I recently posted a thread here requesting Members NOT to post on it and post #2 was made by a Member mocking the whole context of the thread - And he is deemed to be "one of the good guys, who are easy to get along with" at AW - whereas I regard hims as "mean-spirited".

What I get from this is that it's okay to be over defensive and attack others as long as your location implies rough life growing up.

It's not ok - but frequently required on forums like this - to defend yourself against cliques and groups of "sniperbombers" who mean-spiritedly attack by pressing (or attempt to press) your emotional "buttons".

My view is that it is those cowardly and unseen sniperbombers that should be identified and banned from this forum, rather than those members who allow themselves to be openly seen defending themselves against them.

I'm sure people have brought it to her attention many times both in the virtual and "real" world that she is aggressive and hurtful to others. If I were told that I'd try to change that. She hasn't made any efforts to step outside herself and realize that she is coming off as a *****, to speak plainly.

She has made a considerable effort* - which is shown by the change in her behaviour prior to and after her temporary ban.

[*An important point to note in this, is that most of those demanding (and now supporting) her banning are members who appear to have been here BEFORE that temporary ban - and most of those not supporting her ban appear to have joined SINCE her temporary ban.]

So then she was just mean to people out of an instinct caused by living in the inner city of UK?

She was not mean to anyone - But many members here were mean to her.

Pity, compassion. It all stems from a feeling of protectiveness caused by sadness.

I feel no emotion about this (despite what others may think) - my compassion comes from the Soul, which always acts without emotion (but is often driven by anger).

She is plenty able. It's not a matter of ability, it's matter of consideration and humility.

On that, we must agree to disagree, ReincarnatedRainbow.

Ben

Ben · Jan 18, 2012

ReincarnatedRainbow said:
But if people realized that there is only ONE him and a bunch of themselves who are against isolating somebody as well, then there wouldn't be any worrying about being outcasted.

First, though - people have to realize/become aware of the fact that this kind of Member isolation/alienation is taking place at all - Since, I AM A&M is himself a sniperbomber who knows how to push an individual's "buttons" to make them behave openly on the forum in a way which ensures they "isolate themselves".

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too sensitive on that topic, but I can't stand bullying.

My sensitivity stems from not being able to tolerate bullying - But, my Inner-City upbringing in the UK has taught me that true bullies do their bullying away from public view - or openly make in-jokes at the expense of their victims.

Ben

Ben · Jan 18, 2012

SniperBomber328 said:
Funny I always almost thought Immature meant someone who virtually cannot control their emotions to an upsubstantial rate, causing them to come off as childish or foolish in manner.

Much as Christ did when angrily overturning the money tables outside the Temple - for which he was subsequently tried, condemned and crucified by the mature Elders of his society. Funny indeed, SniperBomber

Much like an arrogant hothead who seems immature when angry, and in an argument -as a result - they say anything that comes to their mind, despite the fact that it may or may not make sense.

Or someone who appears to be arrogant and immature - because others are unaware of the reason for his (seemingly) irrational behaviour.

By the way, what I just posted was a run on sentence.....sorry.

I sometimes do that myself - but it's because I understand how the English use the English language (which you may not).

Loneliness in-of-itself is a fear everyone secretly....fears.

Loneliness is a feeling, but not a fear. However, I cannot ever recall experiencing the feeling of loneliness - as I have always been comfortable with being "alone and in-my-own-skin", and uncomfortable when amongst those who need groups/cliques to obtain a sense of security/belonging.

Ben

SniperBomber328 · Jan 18, 2012

Ben said:
Much as Christ did when angrily overturning the money tables outside the Temple - for which he was subsequently tried, condemned and crucified by the mature Elders of his society. Funny indeed, SniperBomber

Or someone who appears to be arrogant and immature - because others are unaware of the reason for his (seemingly) irrational behaviour.

I sometimes do that myself - but it's because I understand how the English use the English language (which you may not).

Loneliness is a feeling, but not a fear. However, I cannot ever recall experiencing the feeling of loneliness - as I have always been comfortable with being "alone and in-my-own-skin", and uncomfortable when amongst those who need groups/cliques to obtain a sense of security/belonging.

Ben

To the above bolded areas; I don't know what you implied to the "Funny indeed", but it was sorta creepy in a way. I only mentioned funny to start of as a humour and then enter the sentence directly.

Second. Exactly, a difference between trying to hide an inner feeling that you don't want anyone to see, and so as a result, you put up a

upfront persona to mask your weaknesses. Then there's those who act arrogant, because they let others get to their heads.....one way or another. Either way, it is no excuse to act so immature in the first place, not everyone (if anyone) wants to deal with it.

Last to the fear part, I know it's a feeling; what I meant was that, because humans naturally fear loneliness, somtimes it act on its own subconciously and so becomes -a sorta- fear in-of-itself.

Ben · Jan 18, 2012

SniperBomber328 said:
To the above bolded areas; I don't know what you implied to the "Funny indeed", but it was sorta creepy in a way. I only mentioned funny to start of as a humour and then enter the sentence directly.

I was not implying anything, and embolded only your name in my post #57 - but, in a way, it's sorta creepy that you think I was. :wink:

Second. Exactly, a difference between trying to hide an inner feeling that you don't want anyone to see, and so as a result, you put up a upfront persona to mask your weaknesses. Then there's those who act arrogant, because they let others get to their heads.....one way or another. Either way, it is no excuse to act so immature in the first place, not everyone (if anyone) wants to deal with it.

I'm having some problems following what you are referring to here, SniperBomber.

Presumably, "second" refers to the second bolding BY YOU of my non-bolded post #57.

If so, you are saying "Exactly" to my comment - then introducing a strawman into your comment to make it appear that we are in agreement about YOUR opinion - Whereas, in fact, I think you misunderstand completely the meaning of the word arrogance (as used by the English).

Are you perhaps an American?

Second. Exactly, a difference between trying to hide an inner feeling that you don't want anyone to see, and so as a result, you put up a upfront persona to mask your weaknesses. Then there's those who act arrogant, because they let others get to their heads.....one way or another. Either way, it is no excuse to act so immature in the first place, not everyone (if anyone) wants to deal with it.

So - let's look at this strawman argument of yours a little closer.

If I understand it correctly (and to be honest I am finding that hard to do) -

Firstly, you are saying (in effect) that arrogance is a mask used by someone to hide their weaknesses - If so, you'll have to clarify that for me, as I simply do not "get" what you are saying.

Secondly, you are saying "then there are those who act arrogant, because they let others get to their heads.....one way or another." And here, I simply do not understand the construction of the sentence and/or "get" what you are saying. So, could you please clarify that for me too.

Thirdly, "it's no excuse to act so immature in the first place, not everyone (if anyone) wants to deal with it" - which only makes sense in the context of a specific incident in which someone acted immaturely - So can you please clarify for me what exactly you are referring to?

Last to the fear part, I know it's a feeling; what I meant was that, because humans naturally fear loneliness, sometimes it acts on its own subconciously and so becomes -a sorta- fear in-of-itself.

I cannot answer that - as I have never experienced loneliness or the fear of it.
However, maybe it's that fear of loneliness that makes people join cliques, gangs and other groups that provide them with a false sense of security and "belonging". [Again though, I cannot speak from experience as I have always been comfortable alone and "in-my-own-skin".]

I look forward to discussing this further with you, SniperBomber - when you have provided the clarification that I have requested.

Ben

MaeMae · Jan 18, 2012

In California, or at least here in LA area, "5150" is a police call-out for someone who is acting erratic and considered dangerous of harming self or others.
So, no, PtV, I don't consider myself or most here to be in that category when it comes to astrology.
However, I personally found the departed to be in that category. She harmed others, and as we have seen, she has now harmed herself by being banned.
I am most in agreement with Sethi's perspectives.
I often found the departed to coincidentally follow my posts with her own, quoting them and making veiled, or not so veiled, mitigating comments about my thoughts.
She quickly occupied my Ignore list when I realized her pathology.
Early on, I posted an announcement that I provided chart readings "you are suffering from neptunian delusion" sound like a harmless comment made? when I confronted her personally foundon posting the nasty remark, she further insulted me.
Anyway...
I think we'd all be better off to learn about ourselves through this event and move forward, maybe by contributing to posts that actually have astro content or to help new members in their development. Many of you here can't be bothered to post meat and potatoes responses, as I see it, when it comes to requests on boards for insight. Hell, some of you can't even be bothered to initiate a thread unless it's completely abstract.
In the meantime, the forums are im jeopardybeing over-run by banal, adolescent posts and detracting, and seldom clever chit chat.
Ben ~ I see you didn't leave. I know you are a highly knowledgeable astrologer. I have only seen you recently running your strangely diplomatic crusades on threads like these. I wish you would offer the rest of us half the time you do this in sharing your skills and insights.
By the way, where's Myk?
Okay, yes, I've said enough. My thoughts. My hopes.
Carry on.....

Aren't we all ...Astrologer51/50 ?

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