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Horary Questions on Relational Issues For horary questions about relationships.


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  #1  
Unread 08-18-2006, 08:46 AM
blumen blumen is offline
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Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

This is a chart I was studying last night.

Background: Rick's mother asks: will Rick and Susan divorce? Their relationship was quite strained.

The mother is signified by the first house
Rick is signified by the fifth house (her son)
Susan is signified by the eleventh house (the seventh house from the fifth)

What is interesting is not the chart itself, but rather the method the astrologer used to delineate it. There are two possible ways one can interpret this chart, and both of them seemed to work.

Blumen

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Unread 08-18-2006, 08:53 AM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Here's the chart
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File Type: gif divorzio2.gif (25.0 KB, 100 views)
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  #3  
Unread 08-18-2006, 10:19 AM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Rick = Mars
Susan = Venus

Venus is a few days before its retrograde station and will not catch up with Mars. The conjunction doesn't take place, the reunion of planets is frustrated.

Rick doesn't seem to feel anything about Susan nor he is interested in keeping in contact with her, as Mars doesn't receive Venus in any dignity and just goes ahead, leaving Venus behind to aspect Uranus, modern ruler of divorce.
Susan loves Rick but at the same time she is very upset on him (Venus receives Mars in her term, but also in her exile).

So Susan decides he doesn't deserve another chance, stops trying to make it work and puts an end to this marriage - Vens goes retrograde and meets Mercury, the ruler of the turned 4th.

There was someone who recently tried to reconcile them - the Moon just separates from a kind of translation of light from Venus to Mars. Could have been their child, as the Moon rules the 5th house from the 5th.
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Unread 08-18-2006, 06:23 PM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Ve, Susan is in own trip. and term and that means she loves herself, not Rick.
But Rick, Ma, is in trip, and term of Ve so he loves her.
I must admit I will not come to idea to checkout will any of planets will go rx, but Radu did! So I will remeber this for next times!
It is interesting that in this chart part of devorce exactly opose Ve! Does it mean, because there are no aspects between Ve and Ma and because Ve does not applaying to part of devorce (it separating) they will stay together?
Both Ve nad Ma exalts Me ruler of 4house, maybe thay will stay together because of property.
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Unread 08-19-2006, 12:01 AM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

The part of Divorce is calculated with the formula ASC + Venus - 7th house cusp so it will always be opposed to Venus.

I'm not sure about it, but there is something about Mercury. Both Venus and Mars are in Mercury's sign (and exaltation) and Venus aspects next Mercury. It's like Venus prefers Mercury to Mars - Venus receives back Mercury in her term. From Susan's point of view, Mercury rules the career (10th house) and spirituality (12th house) and is located in her 12th house.

Noticing that they are breaking up is easy, but I don't understand why... Mercury could be the key.
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Unread 08-19-2006, 05:17 AM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Quote:
The part of Divorce is calculated with the formula ASC + Venus - 7th house cusp so it will always be opposed to Venus.
I thought it was something important but now I see it is not. Thanks for your explanation.
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Unread 08-19-2006, 03:50 PM
blumen blumen is offline
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

I'll post the solution, and then my comments on this

Lehman 2002: 190-191.

"J's mother asked this question. J and S were having a lot of friction in their relationship, and the mother wanted to know if it would go as far as divorce.

J is given by Mars or the Sun, sign ruler or Almuten of the fifth. The Sun clearly has better dignity. Using the Sun further has the advantage of leaving Mars for the querent, who, we may assume, does have somewhat of a vested interest in the outcome of this question. S is therefore Saturn, Almuten of the 11th, which also has more dignity than sign ruler Venus.

The two significators, both dignified, are doubly separating from each other by opposition. This certainly shows their current impasse. but Saturn is aspecting the turned ascendant, an argument for reconcicliation in Lilly's list. Notice also that neither planet is with another planet. The Sun ultimately will apply to Jupiter, although it has to get through the square to Pluto first. But this is an argument that neither party is currently with another, although there is the possibility that j will end up with a lover eventually. But there are no planets in either the turned first or seventh and no planets apart from S's significator applying to the turned ascendant. So the problem is just between them, and there is an argument that their differences can be transcended, thought the offices of dignified Saturn.

They did resolve their differences, and they are still together"
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Unread 08-19-2006, 04:21 PM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

There are two things I do not understand about this delineation.

1. Questions about couples splitting up

Normally in an horary perfection shows that the desired outcome will be achieved. Anyhow, in horaries about couples, business partnerships etc. splitting up Lehman says that "the planets come together, the people may
split apart" (Lehman 2002: 190). The reasons she gives is that all depends on the wording you use to formulate the question. "Be careful how you word your question because you just might have to answer it the way you asked it!" (p. 189)

If I ask an horary about X and Y splitting up, it is why I already know there are frictions between them. Existence of these frictions should be reflected by the chart. How? By hard aspects between the significators. It ensues that if the significators are in soft aspect to each other, and if the aspect reaches perfection, the couple does not split.

On the other hand, if the significators are in square or opposition, the couple should split.

Soft aspects with perfection = reconciliation.
Hard aspects or no aspect = splitting up.

This seems, to me, a very logical principle. Think about electional astrology, too. Electional astrology shares most of the rules of horary. If you have to elect a chart for when you want to split up with your partner, would you choose Mars and Venus angular, dignified and moving towards a conjunction?

If you want to elect a moment for when to marry, would you choose to have Mars and Venus detrimented and in opposition?

If I ask about two people splitting up and I see the significators applying a trine, I say "No, they won't split up". What I look for are planets in detriment and not in aspect to each other.


2. Using the Almuten instead of the ruler.

I always had doubts about this technique. I do not use the Almuten of a sign if the ruler can be used. The principle that you should compare the dignity of sign ruler and almuten and choose the most dignified planet seems a bit contradictory to me.

If we try and delineate this chart using sign rulers, we obtain the same result: the couple does not split up.

Radu wrote:

"Venus is a few days before its retrograde station and will not catch up with Mars. The conjunction doesn't take place, the reunion of planets is frustrated"

When I looked at the chart I already knew the outcome, so my delineation does not count, anyhow I see it in the following way

here we have a conjunction applying by a very close orb. Regardless of frustration, it should mean a "Yes, they will be reconciliated". both significators are cadent (more than 5 degrees away) from the Midheaven, but they are nevertheless angular, and dignified by virtue of this position.

Goca wrote:

"Does it mean, because there are no aspects between Ve and Ma and because Ve does not applaying to part of devorce (it separating) they will stay together?"

I did not consider the part of divorce at all. I looked at the chart, saw the conjuntction between Ve and Ma on the Midheaven and thought: now I see why these two did not divorce. Anyway Venus is still applying a conjunction to Mars, because at the time of the question did not start the retrograde motion yet.

What really puzzles me is the following:

if we consider Mars and Venus as the significators, we see that there is frustration.

Normally we would say: there is frustration, and the two will divorce.

If we apply Lehman's principle, we see that precisely because of frustration the Venus Mars conjunction does not take place. hence we say: since Mars and Venus do not perfect a conjunction the two will not divorce.

I am quite confused by all this and I would appreciate your comments

Cheers,

Blumen
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Last edited by blumen; 08-19-2006 at 04:29 PM.
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  #9  
Unread 08-19-2006, 10:38 PM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumen
Normally in an horary perfection shows that the desired outcome
I disagree. I believe that, in an horary, perfection (preferably with reception) gives a yes answer regradless of what outcome is actually desired and even of the no is what is actually desired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blumen
Normally we would say: there is frustration, and the two will divorce.
By the same token of my previous comment, I say that frustration stops the yes from happening and results in a no answer regradless of what outcome is actually desired.
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Unread 08-20-2006, 09:22 AM
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

And I thought this was easy...

Some comments: Venus and Mars are not applying, but separating. Venus' velocity (6'/day) is much smaller than Mars' (37'/day) so Mars is not approached by Venus.

Leehman is right about using almutems - the planet that holds most dignities on the cusp should be used as the main significator. We usually assume that that planet is the sign ruler, but it doesn't always happen.
Lehman also said that we should use the Sun and Saturn as Rick (J) and Susan's significators because they have more dignities than Mars and Venus, but I don't understand the logic behind it. It seems much better to consider that the house almutem as the main significator.

Interestingly, using the Sun and Saturn we have the SAME situation as with Mars and Venus: two planets separating from an with no/little reception. Susan's planet is retrograde.
But this retrograde thing might be the key to the chart. We've seen in Ivy's horary that a retrograde 7th house ruler means that the querent will return to a previous marital status, i.e. will marry again. Here it might mean that their marriage will not progress to divorce, but retrograde to a previous situation, of love and understanding.
Both the Sun and Saturn are strong in domicile, although they dislike each other - mutual "deception" by detriment. They may not like each other, but they don't hate each other, as it would happen if each planet would be in other's fall sign. These are strong planets, indicating responsable people, who are able to work out a solution.

Lehman says that there is a possibility of Rick/J ending up with a lover. But not Susan/S. We see the Sun moving forward in the turned 5th house (affairs) - so this is a plausible situation. But Saturn is retrograding to aspect the turned Ascendant - so Susan is actually trying to make this relationship work.
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Unread 11-16-2019, 03:49 PM
Hopes1 Hopes1 is offline
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Hi Blumen,

I follow Vedic astrology for horary based on KP system. I was browsing through some posts today and found yours. Your analysis are quite in-depth and practical.

If this is of any help, I have a current case that you can consider based on my personal life. My bf and I broke up two weeks ago and have no contact ever since. He has blocked me everywhere. The reason for our breakup was issues related to his work and couldn't manage a relationship. But we do like each other a lot.

In the chart I casted, Mars and Venus exchange houses. Mars is in fifth house, fourth cusp and Venus is in sixth house fifth cusp. So it's as if Mars is moving into fifth cusp where Venus is..and based on planet psychology Mars attract Venus. However, the twist is Mars is in the sub of Retrograde mercury and Venus is in the star of Retrograde mercury. Mercury is also in 5th house along with Sun (debilitated) who is the owner of 3rd house.

Now that we have split and the planets are indicating that does it mean we won't reunite? Or is there a good chance for us to reconcile? Because moon is in the 11 house and is connected to Venus and Mars (i.e. moon is in mars house, aspected by mars and same sign lord as Venus)

I have attached the Vedic chart for your reference. You can also view the link pasted for the western chart: https://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...Q4YTQzN2JkNzRm

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blumen View Post
There are two things I do not understand about this delineation.

1. Questions about couples splitting up

Normally in an horary perfection shows that the desired outcome will be achieved. Anyhow, in horaries about couples, business partnerships etc. splitting up Lehman says that "the planets come together, the people may
split apart" (Lehman 2002: 190). The reasons she gives is that all depends on the wording you use to formulate the question. "Be careful how you word your question because you just might have to answer it the way you asked it!" (p. 189)

If I ask an horary about X and Y splitting up, it is why I already know there are frictions between them. Existence of these frictions should be reflected by the chart. How? By hard aspects between the significators. It ensues that if the significators are in soft aspect to each other, and if the aspect reaches perfection, the couple does not split.

On the other hand, if the significators are in square or opposition, the couple should split.

Soft aspects with perfection = reconciliation.
Hard aspects or no aspect = splitting up.

This seems, to me, a very logical principle. Think about electional astrology, too. Electional astrology shares most of the rules of horary. If you have to elect a chart for when you want to split up with your partner, would you choose Mars and Venus angular, dignified and moving towards a conjunction?

If you want to elect a moment for when to marry, would you choose to have Mars and Venus detrimented and in opposition?

If I ask about two people splitting up and I see the significators applying a trine, I say "No, they won't split up". What I look for are planets in detriment and not in aspect to each other.


2. Using the Almuten instead of the ruler.

I always had doubts about this technique. I do not use the Almuten of a sign if the ruler can be used. The principle that you should compare the dignity of sign ruler and almuten and choose the most dignified planet seems a bit contradictory to me.

If we try and delineate this chart using sign rulers, we obtain the same result: the couple does not split up.

Radu wrote:

"Venus is a few days before its retrograde station and will not catch up with Mars. The conjunction doesn't take place, the reunion of planets is frustrated"

When I looked at the chart I already knew the outcome, so my delineation does not count, anyhow I see it in the following way

here we have a conjunction applying by a very close orb. Regardless of frustration, it should mean a "Yes, they will be reconciliated". both significators are cadent (more than 5 degrees away) from the Midheaven, but they are nevertheless angular, and dignified by virtue of this position.

Goca wrote:

"Does it mean, because there are no aspects between Ve and Ma and because Ve does not applaying to part of devorce (it separating) they will stay together?"

I did not consider the part of divorce at all. I looked at the chart, saw the conjuntction between Ve and Ma on the Midheaven and thought: now I see why these two did not divorce. Anyway Venus is still applying a conjunction to Mars, because at the time of the question did not start the retrograde motion yet.

What really puzzles me is the following:

if we consider Mars and Venus as the significators, we see that there is frustration.

Normally we would say: there is frustration, and the two will divorce.

If we apply Lehman's principle, we see that precisely because of frustration the Venus Mars conjunction does not take place. hence we say: since Mars and Venus do not perfect a conjunction the two will not divorce.

I am quite confused by all this and I would appreciate your comments

Cheers,

Blumen
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Unread 11-16-2019, 03:56 PM
Hopes1 Hopes1 is offline
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

Here is the attachment
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Unread 11-17-2019, 03:10 AM
Hopes1 Hopes1 is offline
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Re: Horary test: will Rick and Susan divorce?

It is a horary chart, based on KP system (Vedic)
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