What is the IC?
- Thread starter Moog
- Start date
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Regarding “how is your Latin or ancient Greek?”
You then ask “Where Riley uses the term "parents" in his Vettius translation, do you know what was the word in the original?”
IMO At this stage - in view of your clear requirement for more detailed analysis of the meaning of even one particular word in the original language - then questioning the validity of the many and various translators of Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheus, et al - is in fact, apposite.
We may then continue the theme and question the translations of every single word translated from Ancient Greek or Latin by the various translators of Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheus et al and not solely the translations of Vettius Valens, thus whiling away our time with intriguing academic discussions specifically on the topic "What is the IC?".
Furthermore if we are to pursue this path, IMO to ask the question “What, currently, is meant by the term 'parents'?” is pertinent. We then discover a 21st Century common knowledge dictionary definition as follows:
parent n.
1. One who begets, gives birth to, or nurtures and raises a child; a father or mother.
2. An ancestor; a progenitor.
3. An organism that produces or generates offspring.
4. A guardian; a protector.
5. A parent company.
6. A source or cause; an origin: "Despair is the parent of rebellion".
verb. transitive
1. To act as a parent to; raise and nurture: "A genitor who does not parent the child is not its parent" (Ashley Montagu).
2. To cause to come into existence; originate.
verb. intransitive
To act as a parent.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin parns, parent-, from past active participle of parere, to give birth; Indo-European roots.]
btw, Anyone sufficiently interested in the kind of in-depth analysis sparked off by the intriguing question
Alternatively in the meantime, for anyone awaiting delivery of Vettius Valens in the original, yet keen for more discussion on comparisons between various translations of Vettius Valens, there is an interesting thread initiated by Therese Hamilton over on Skyscript entitled Valens: Schmidt, Riley and Gehrz where the required detailed comparison between Riley's, Schmidt's and Gehrz's translations of Vettius Valens is currently ongoing. And on that note, here's a very interesting example 100 word quote:
QUOTE FROM THERESE HAMILTON:
“It's valuable having properly published version of Riley's translation of Valens (Astrology Classics, Astrology Center of America) to compare with Schmidt/Gehrz. I'm waiting for the printed text because I believe Valens is important enough to pay the cost for an attractive well published book with index. From what I've seen, the Riley translation is quite close to Schmidt, and can be relied upon. It's often more readable as well. So if anyone regretted not having the Schmidt translation (only partly complete), I believe the Riley translation will be accurate enough, though missing Robert Schmidt's and Rob Hand's notes”
For those who are interested, Therese Hamilton then continues with an example of an important translation difference between Gehrz and Schmidt/Riley http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6546&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Anyone who reads my posts shall have noticed that I frequently state that I'm no expert - on the contrary, our two actual long time resident experts are:
(a) member Chris Brennan, teacher and translator of various ancient manuscripts particularly those of Vettius Valens http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/
(b) member Zoidsoft, writer of the Hellenistic software program for Project Hindsight has worked closely with Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight and maintains a useful resource website at http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/
You have asked this question on numerous occasions and for the record I learned Latin as a child and later learned ancient Greek and not as a matter of necessity, but simply because my own interests motivated me to do so and my subsequent experience has been most rewarding in that a knowledge of both Latin and ancient Greek are extremely useful when considering the root meanings of many words currently in common daily usage in many languages. I would recommend the study of Latin and Greek to anyone - in particular, those who enjoy learning languages.
You then ask “Where Riley uses the term "parents" in his Vettius translation, do you know what was the word in the original?”
IMO At this stage - in view of your clear requirement for more detailed analysis of the meaning of even one particular word in the original language - then questioning the validity of the many and various translators of Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheus, et al - is in fact, apposite.
We may then continue the theme and question the translations of every single word translated from Ancient Greek or Latin by the various translators of Firmicus Maternus, Dorotheus et al and not solely the translations of Vettius Valens, thus whiling away our time with intriguing academic discussions specifically on the topic "What is the IC?".
Furthermore if we are to pursue this path, IMO to ask the question “What, currently, is meant by the term 'parents'?” is pertinent. We then discover a 21st Century common knowledge dictionary definition as follows:
parent n.
1. One who begets, gives birth to, or nurtures and raises a child; a father or mother.
2. An ancestor; a progenitor.
3. An organism that produces or generates offspring.
4. A guardian; a protector.
5. A parent company.
6. A source or cause; an origin: "Despair is the parent of rebellion".
verb. transitive
1. To act as a parent to; raise and nurture: "A genitor who does not parent the child is not its parent" (Ashley Montagu).
2. To cause to come into existence; originate.
verb. intransitive
To act as a parent.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin parns, parent-, from past active participle of parere, to give birth; Indo-European roots.]
btw, Anyone sufficiently interested in the kind of in-depth analysis sparked off by the intriguing question
as a fun exercise may prefer to purchase Vettius Valens in the original and discover for themselves
Alternatively in the meantime, for anyone awaiting delivery of Vettius Valens in the original, yet keen for more discussion on comparisons between various translations of Vettius Valens, there is an interesting thread initiated by Therese Hamilton over on Skyscript entitled Valens: Schmidt, Riley and Gehrz where the required detailed comparison between Riley's, Schmidt's and Gehrz's translations of Vettius Valens is currently ongoing. And on that note, here's a very interesting example 100 word quote:
QUOTE FROM THERESE HAMILTON:
“It's valuable having properly published version of Riley's translation of Valens (Astrology Classics, Astrology Center of America) to compare with Schmidt/Gehrz. I'm waiting for the printed text because I believe Valens is important enough to pay the cost for an attractive well published book with index. From what I've seen, the Riley translation is quite close to Schmidt, and can be relied upon. It's often more readable as well. So if anyone regretted not having the Schmidt translation (only partly complete), I believe the Riley translation will be accurate enough, though missing Robert Schmidt's and Rob Hand's notes”
For those who are interested, Therese Hamilton then continues with an example of an important translation difference between Gehrz and Schmidt/Riley http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6546&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Anyone who reads my posts shall have noticed that I frequently state that I'm no expert - on the contrary, our two actual long time resident experts are:
(a) member Chris Brennan, teacher and translator of various ancient manuscripts particularly those of Vettius Valens http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/
(b) member Zoidsoft, writer of the Hellenistic software program for Project Hindsight has worked closely with Robert Schmidt of Project Hindsight and maintains a useful resource website at http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/
Practicing Hellenistic astrologer Vettius Valens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens who chronicled the techniques of astrologers preceding him by many hundreds of years has a comment to make regarding this matter and advises us as follows in his anthology - a free translation of which is available online at http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf
QUOTE FROM THE ANTHOLOGY BY VETTIUS VALENS
IV (aka 4th) is The Place concerning the life of parents, concerning religious and secret matters, estates, property, and treasure-troves.
i.e. Vettius Valens, Hellenistic astrologer from two thousand years ago reminds us that the IVth house is the place concerning "the life of PARENTS" plural
For Hellenistic astrologers, the IC/4th house in fact symbolizes BOTH parents
- as well as:
(b) religious and secret matters
(c) estates
(d) property
(e) treasure troves
Thanks for all the interesting links.
I loved to read the article about duads and dwads, it is very interesting. I have many birthtimes of my fathers family almost until the late 16th century because when I was a child I spend days and days copying this information in a register office. Sadly all this work is there at my parents house far away and because they are going to sell the house, and I can't travel I think I lost it forever. This old books in that office were in such a bad condition. I think they don't exist anymore.
As example of how we inheritate astrological positions I have a good example with one of my sons that has almost the same chart as my husband (Ascendant, Sun Sign and Moon Sign are the same)
I don't have problems with latin or greek ethymology, I studied both and I still speak a latin dialect. We say "parir" for giving birth and "pais" for parents. I surley would enjoy to read all this books you mentioned.
Great thread Moog, simple question but lot of information.
I loved to read the article about duads and dwads, it is very interesting. I have many birthtimes of my fathers family almost until the late 16th century because when I was a child I spend days and days copying this information in a register office. Sadly all this work is there at my parents house far away and because they are going to sell the house, and I can't travel I think I lost it forever. This old books in that office were in such a bad condition. I think they don't exist anymore.
As example of how we inheritate astrological positions I have a good example with one of my sons that has almost the same chart as my husband (Ascendant, Sun Sign and Moon Sign are the same)
I don't have problems with latin or greek ethymology, I studied both and I still speak a latin dialect. We say "parir" for giving birth and "pais" for parents. I surley would enjoy to read all this books you mentioned.
Great thread Moog, simple question but lot of information.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Then you are likely to enjoy reading the following article also on DWADS and available at http://www.astrologysoftware.com/resources/articles/getarticle.asp?ID=165
Article Title: Manilius' System of Dodecatemories (DWADS) - by Stephanie Clement - This article was first published in Today's Astrologer, the bulletin of the American Federation of Astrologers. Many astrologers are familiar with a Hindu system of division of the sign of the zodiac into two and one half degree segments called dwadashamsas. Manilius, a Latin astrologer born approximately two thousand years ago, was also aware of this type of division. He called the two and one half degree segments Dodecatemories, meaning the twelfth part of a sign.
some info on Manilius at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Manilius
Last edited:
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
That's ok. IMO the precise word that Valens used for "parents" was "parents" i.e. there is much debate as to what Valens did or did not say and therefore I recommend you seek advice from our two resident Hellenistic astrology experts - members Chris Brennan and Zoidsoft who are far better qualified than I
I am certain both would be only too delighted to respond to any questions relating to this crucial and inevitably contentious matter.
btw
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Btw - A timely and most useful illustration of the finely-based nuances of meaning relating to vocabulary as understood by ancient Greek authors such as Vettius Valens is conveyed by the posting to you tube on 22 February 2012 of a video graphically highlighting the advantages of clear audio visual presentation when clarifying ancient astrological meaning as originally intended by the author two thousand years ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7j_5...ature=youtu.be
– the video is a response from Andrea Gehrz http://www.moirapress.org/Site/Home.html to some very interesting dialogue initiated by Sidereal astrologer Therese Hamilton on a thread entitled “Valens: Schmidt, Riley and Gehrz” http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...er=asc&start=0
fwiw some say the IC indicates the manner of the end of life
waybread
Well-known member
As you know, JA, I have participated on that thread. I don't have audio on my old computer (but I may catch it sometime on my laptop or husband's computer.) For future reference, just assume that if I have participated on a Skyscript forum thread, I probably am following it.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
To all
- Discussion regarding what Valens meant, when Valens said whatever it was Valens said, is increasingly most interesting since a poster knowledgeable on the subject of ancient Greek has made some intriguing comments on a spin-off thread entitled: "Gehrz responds to The Aries Question" http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6569 - I recommend it to all
- Discussion regarding what Valens meant, when Valens said whatever it was Valens said, is increasingly most interesting since a poster knowledgeable on the subject of ancient Greek has made some intriguing comments on a spin-off thread entitled: "Gehrz responds to The Aries Question" http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6569 - I recommend it to all