Neptune Rising
Well-known member
Dr Farr, yes that's the one I've been using. A very interesting study 
Transits of Lilith? Any significance?
- Thread starter Hieronimuss
- Start date
Although in a decided minority, when looking at transits (to a radical chart) I only consider the conjunctional transits (not the aspects), regardless of whether a planet or Lilith (or the Nodes) are involved (I guess its because the indications are clearer to me this way; I will state that the earliest Western astrology reference to transits, in "Carmen Astrologicum" by Dorotheus of Sidon, 14 AD, only discussed what amount to conjunctional transits, not transits via aspects)
However, I fully use Lilith aspects in event charts and natal charts (when not looking at transits), as well as aspects to (or from) Lilith in symbolic directions, as well as aspects involving Lilith via its Pauline dodek ramification point (in natal and event charts)... I believe that Lilith conjunctions and aspects must be fairly close, with a maximum orb of 5 degrees, for effective (energetic) contact to occur.
I have come to believe that ALL contacts with Lilith (and EQUALLY, with the South Node) are disruptive in nature, whether such contact is conjunctional or aspectual, whether it is a square or a trine, or a quincuncx or a sextile-this belief is largely based upon my understanding of Lilith (and of the South Node) as representing the klippothic energies of CHAOS in the universe, and so, any contact/"channeling" of chaotic energies MUST be disruptive to whatever planet (or Lot, or angular or cuspal degree, etc) is making such a contact.
However, I fully use Lilith aspects in event charts and natal charts (when not looking at transits), as well as aspects to (or from) Lilith in symbolic directions, as well as aspects involving Lilith via its Pauline dodek ramification point (in natal and event charts)... I believe that Lilith conjunctions and aspects must be fairly close, with a maximum orb of 5 degrees, for effective (energetic) contact to occur.
I have come to believe that ALL contacts with Lilith (and EQUALLY, with the South Node) are disruptive in nature, whether such contact is conjunctional or aspectual, whether it is a square or a trine, or a quincuncx or a sextile-this belief is largely based upon my understanding of Lilith (and of the South Node) as representing the klippothic energies of CHAOS in the universe, and so, any contact/"channeling" of chaotic energies MUST be disruptive to whatever planet (or Lot, or angular or cuspal degree, etc) is making such a contact.
Joz
Well-known member
This from astro.com- (edited)
"In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess...
The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years...was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive...
The figure of Lilith represents one aspect of the Great Goddess. Jewish mythology already puts her into darker realms..."
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
Is Lilith as we see her today a manifestation of the suppression of the Divine Mother/Goddess in our world? Where masculine/feminine energies are not in balance?
"In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess...
The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years...was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive...
The figure of Lilith represents one aspect of the Great Goddess. Jewish mythology already puts her into darker realms..."
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
Is Lilith as we see her today a manifestation of the suppression of the Divine Mother/Goddess in our world? Where masculine/feminine energies are not in balance?
Joz
Well-known member
And what about the 'ghost (image) that haunts', or the non-physical return?
There are some extremely interesting correlations with the positions of natal, secondary progressed, solar arc and transiting Black Moon Lilith, according to how one interprets them, and the current development around England's long deceased King Richard III and his skeletal remains that have finally been found.
Literally, a ghost from the past.
Can you share your findings about this in more detail? Sounds fascinating...
Joz
Well-known member
Wow, look at this. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see where the h58/Waldemath was in the Newtown chart. In addition to Black Moon Lilith (exactly quincunx the Capricorn Moon at 10), Waldemath/h58/aka the "Dark" Moon is at 13 degrees, conjuncting the Moon in the twelfth. So both BML and Dark Moon are connected here as well!
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Bina
Well-known member
Interesting point, if an energy is suppressed, it turns dark or negative..
the Goddess energy and worship was suppressed for thousands of years, so it comes through the back door as dark Lilith..
In other cultures, not our western patriarchal society, the Goddess is still worshiped in numerous forms, in India for example there are Kali and Durga, the Goddesses who destroy the demons and also Lakshmi, Goddess of wealth and Saraswati, Goddess of Wisdom, Knowledge and the Arts. I wonder if a culture expresses and worships these archetypes, whether Lilith would be expressed differently there?
Neptune Rising
Well-known member
In blue above - This is true, but other cultures also are very patriarchal... Where the Goddesses such as Kali, Durga are worshipped, highlighted in the news recently have shown the current attitudes to females in society. Perhaps, these females have shown a Lilith (positive) type of drive to push past those patriarchal attitudes but been challenged and destroyed by the old patriachal attitude. This very much brings to mind an interesting article here about that awful gang rape. Such tragic circumstances but did indeed bring to light the society, attitudes to females who may not 'conform', as would Lilith herself do. I understand the energy to be a very independant, female vibration, not constricted by anything. Maybe, in a positive light, this tragedy will bring about a change now, in the way these cases are dealt with, and bring more world wide awareness to this. http://darkstarastrology.com/delhi-gang-rape/
The article highlights the significance of Lilith in relation to that society.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
I don't know if, by DML, you are referring to the Waldemath Moon or the astrological point known as Black Moon Called Lilith. I can only speak of the latter.
On more than several occasions the position of MEAN Black Moon Lilith in the 5th house (creation?) has not coincided with a lack/negativity regarding children rather than:
1) single parent mother, (possibly father, too, although I've not seen this)
2)colour of child other than biological mother,
3) pseudo 'fairy godmother' or 'wicked witch' imagery of non-related blood mother.
As the 5th house is associated with the parent-child relationship, BML in a chart can also provide information regarding one's own attitude towards the (non) parenting one felt to receive.
E.g. In a chart where Sun-Moon were in trine, the 5th house BML Lilith child felt to not get a look in because the parents were so wrapped up in/with each other. There was no jealousy, just the 'not feeling to be part of' or 'feeling ignored'.
E.g. Sun to BML in 5th. The child feels to be 'an extension of' the hero figure of the father. Identity issues are eventually created because the child is only seen as Mr. B's son, daughter, child, and not recognised for who it is in its own right.
E.G. Sun square BML in 5th. No contact at all with biological male parent, who can even remain unknown. This is different to the 12th house Sun, in which, through circumstances, the known biological male parent does not play an active part in the child's life.
Difficulties with the biological mother, terminations or abortions, decisions to remain childless is almost a classic of Moon-BML, especially where Cancer and the 4th house is concerned. With the conjunction there is often no feeling of 'natural bonding' between mother/child, and the child in adulthood is therefore unable to give, or finds difficulty in expressing, that which was never felt to have been received.
There are three of them, but all have different distinct names:
1. Dark Moon Lilith is the hypothetical planet that Waldemath and Ivy Goldstein Jacobson have found to be dangerously inimical. Whether its an etheric planet or a dark matter planet or just a strange weird bad place in space that operates in the ephemeris, no one knows.
2. Black Moon Lilith is the Moon's highest apogee
3. Lilith-A is the asteroid Lilith.
Hopefully people will know which one we are talking about.
1. Dark Moon Lilith is the hypothetical planet that Waldemath and Ivy Goldstein Jacobson have found to be dangerously inimical. Whether its an etheric planet or a dark matter planet or just a strange weird bad place in space that operates in the ephemeris, no one knows.
2. Black Moon Lilith is the Moon's highest apogee
3. Lilith-A is the asteroid Lilith.
Hopefully people will know which one we are talking about.
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Frisiangal
Well-known member
Are you referring to 'the ghosts that haunt', 'the non-physical return', or
correlations to King Richard III chart?
Richard III is truly a 'non-physical return' appearance, although deceased for over 500 years. His bones as well as character are undergoing great analysis, placing question marks upon the myths (BML?) that surrounded him as a person. He's become quite human rather than the monster of old.
I haven't seen anything on this site but an interesting discussion is taking place on Astro. Com. under the Mundane astrology section. A number of charts have been provided, whereby it's possible to try to fit the pieces in the right places.
Interesting!
I have come to regard the influential (or signifying) qualities of Lilith (Dark Moon, crescent-on-a-cross Lilith) as being a mixture similar to the indications found:
-connected with Moon and the star Algol
plus
-Moon as if in opposition or square to Mars
plus
-Moon as if opposition or square to Saturn
...the lyrics in the old "Bad Moon Rising" song (Creedence Clearwater Revival, April, 1969) summarize pretty well, what I have come to regard as Lilith's essential influences and innate quality, particularly the line, "...the voice of rage and ruin"...
Frisiangal
Well-known member
Your location addres might offer a clue.
It's interesting that the chart you offer is for a date in the future when the transiting JU-MEAN BML conjunction is active again, this time in Cancer where it aspects natal Uranus. They were conjunct in Gemini, where they aspected natal Neptune sextile Pluto, as well as TRUE BML, whilst TRUE BML, usually erratic in movement, actually settled for a while on 10* Gemini.
Have you felt a shift of energy, perhaps as a result of things being taken into....or out of... your own ( Gemini) hands?
In attempting to interpret any planet/point, one cannot take one single aspect on its own. Everything in the chart is related in one way or the other.
A basic reference is that MEAN BML in a sign suggests where the characteristics of that sign are 'inwardly active' as a natural inherent trait. The formless(ness) has to find and be given form that may/may not find outer expression through any planet to which it is aspected.
A trine aspect is associated with inherent qualities. Mean BML-Saturn is such an aspect in fire signs. The formless(ness) can be given reality (Saturn) in a manner that cannot be proven through tangibility (no planets in Earth in chart)
Moon is always representative of one's automatic response to outer stimuli. What and how he/she/it has made me feel. When in square aspect to MEAN BML, the Moon's behaviour pattern has often become adversely conditioned through and by the childhood experiences that 'have left their mark' on the child.
The images from childhood (BML) can take on a life of their own that can determine how the individual views itself, as well as dictate how it lives, rather than how it truly is. BML can accept and see itself as the one 'at fault' or 'who to blame' in cases where this is NOT so (whereas Saturn is proven guilt). With BML it is important to realise that its perspective in non-physical. It can provide the imagery that is/is not always as it seems and appears to be. The water element provides a very rich imaginative quality.
BML in Aries has always shown the deep inner need to exist in one's own right....the I AM rather than 'me, me' attitude. This can mean finding the Arian strength of courage and assertivity to BE, rather than play a created role that 'disguises' one's true nature.
At its pure best, BML can rise to the higher quality within Aries, in which (wo)Man has tamed and overcome the beast within itself.
(I have seen charts where BML in Aries correlated with the persons' mediumistic qualities).
As said in a previous post, Moon-BML aspects often refers to situations with, and regarding the biological mother which, if harsh of nature, can affect one's own attitude regarding the parentship role.
In a male chart, this could go on to affect one's attitude to women in general.
Uranus is inconjunct/quincunx MEAN BML. The 150* degree aspect, as well as Uranus itself, have much to do with stress situations. From Scorpio, any aspects will see an emotionally intense, compulsive, obsessional side. I have always been of the opinion that Uranus in Scorpio is meant to help one become less attached to, and free itself from the emotional character of the sign that can otherwise have such a hold over a person.
Uranus-BML has often been accompanied with a split in one's personality. BML plays the role Uranus needs to gain its independence of spirit. I use the term 'gay divorce(e)' as well.
Saturn squares Uranus.
With all aspects, 'anger management' could be issues one faces/has faced, in which each aspect is able to offer help to the other in its own way.
I have commented on only the planetary relationships with BML, and obviusly not fully. Just 'general' ideas as a guideline to go on. All other aspects MUST be considered. By placing house rulerships, more information can be gained. I work with another house system to the one used, so have not added house reference.
Any feedback, on the forum or privately, would be most appreciated for study purposes.
Joz
Well-known member
Are you referring to 'the ghosts that haunt', 'the non-physical return', or
correlations to King Richard III chart?
Richard III is truly a 'non-physical return' appearance, although deceased for over 500 years. His bones as well as character are undergoing great analysis, placing question marks upon the myths (BML?) that surrounded him as a person. He's become quite human rather than the monster of old.
I haven't seen anything on this site but an interesting discussion is taking place on Astro. Com. under the Mundane astrology section. A number of charts have been provided, whereby it's possible to try to fit the pieces in the right places.
Thanks!
I will definitely take a look.
Joz
Well-known member
Interesting article, and I think, highlights view of Kali in modern day India.
I believe that ancient India was matriarchal, right? India's long been known as one of the centers of spiritual wisdom, and ancient teachings are being rediscovered, as we come out of the dark ages.
But then comes the need for receptivity to wisdom and the practice! So one of the bigger themes I think that's interesting to take in is how we all need to seek that balance of Father/ Mother within, irrespective of culture.
Since you did not want to move this to a separate "read my chart" thread, I will dump it right here and add to the mess. If no one cares, I guess I won't either.
Not really. Nothing has changed in the last year. I had high hopes for the november eclipse that was conjunct my natal NN, but not much has happened and I think transiting saturn over my natal uranus has something to do with that...change suppressed."frisingal" said:
Are you suggesting that BML functions like retrograde planet? I already have jupiter retro in aries."frisingal" said:
Not sure what you are getting at. Saturn is in slow retrograde, so its expression is turned inward."frisingal" said:
Are you suggesting there is a rejection of traditional aries behavior/values because it being seen as destructive and barbaric? There is a need to tame aries instincts? I think I've already done that."frisingal" said:
This is what I was questioning. While I never desired to be parent, there was absolutely no animosity from my childhood. In fact, just the opposite. If anything, being smoother loved could have been an issue. My mother still tells people I was a perfectly behaved child, unlike my siblings. To this day there is still synastry with my parents. We just think alike, for the most part. If it has affected my attitude for women, it is that I expect them to be caring and self-sacrificing for the family. However, I expect that of both sexes equally."frisingal" said:
I think like scorpio, but don't feel obligated to behave like one. There are number of scorpio suns in my family, including both parents, and my brother is scorpio rising, my mother is scorpio moon...I'm consious of everything scorpio."frisingal" said:
That aspect had brought much frustration when there is conjunction to uranus. Sudden situations arise. It seems that if I'm cautious, the correct action was to be more spontaneous and risk taking. If I take a risk, then the correct action was to me cautious. It is always the opposite of whatever I do, as if I have an intelligent opponent messing with my head. Yeah,sometimes it makes me rage (12th house mars/moon, directed inward) for few minutes until I brush it off and move on."frisingal" said:
Dark Moon Lilith and Illness part ONE
Re: The chart of Teddy Roosevelt. Data: 10-27-1858, 7:45 PM LMT, 74W00, 40n43. This chart has Gemini Rising. Teddy had severe asthma problems, as Noel so ably demonstrates.
What is asthma? Its a constriction of the lung passages which causes one not to be able to get in enough oxygen, and ends up with constant over and again dry coughing.
Lilith is in the 7th house. This the house of the lumbar region, which at first seems not to be related. However breathing starts in the muscles of the lumbar region of your body. Try to breath without moving your stomach muscles.
The end of the matter is the 11th house(the 4th house of the 7th). Lilith is especially happy to be squaring Neptune in the 10th. Neptune rules asphyxiation, and this is exactly what happens in asthma attacks. If the person does get help for what started with the beginning of breathing in the 7th then asphyxiation is the result.
Lilith is oppositional to the ascendant which Gemini, and ruled by Mercury. Its sextile Mercury. Mercury rules dry coughing. Gemini and mercury rules breathing. The oppositional aspect means that its action will be stymying, rather than some other way. And the stopping would be of breathing.
Since Lilith’s natural house is the 12th, this makes Uranus which is in the 12th part of Lilith’s pattern, since asthma attacks come on suddenly and with little warning. Jupiter in Gemini is also in the 12, and also roughly part of this oppositional connection to the ascendant, giving us expansion, which is what happens in asthma attack they tend to get worse. The benefics of Jupiter here are muted by its Rx condition, and the again and again repeating of the Rx.
Re: The chart of Teddy Roosevelt. Data: 10-27-1858, 7:45 PM LMT, 74W00, 40n43. This chart has Gemini Rising. Teddy had severe asthma problems, as Noel so ably demonstrates.
What is asthma? Its a constriction of the lung passages which causes one not to be able to get in enough oxygen, and ends up with constant over and again dry coughing.
Lilith is in the 7th house. This the house of the lumbar region, which at first seems not to be related. However breathing starts in the muscles of the lumbar region of your body. Try to breath without moving your stomach muscles.
The end of the matter is the 11th house(the 4th house of the 7th). Lilith is especially happy to be squaring Neptune in the 10th. Neptune rules asphyxiation, and this is exactly what happens in asthma attacks. If the person does get help for what started with the beginning of breathing in the 7th then asphyxiation is the result.
Lilith is oppositional to the ascendant which Gemini, and ruled by Mercury. Its sextile Mercury. Mercury rules dry coughing. Gemini and mercury rules breathing. The oppositional aspect means that its action will be stymying, rather than some other way. And the stopping would be of breathing.
Since Lilith’s natural house is the 12th, this makes Uranus which is in the 12th part of Lilith’s pattern, since asthma attacks come on suddenly and with little warning. Jupiter in Gemini is also in the 12, and also roughly part of this oppositional connection to the ascendant, giving us expansion, which is what happens in asthma attack they tend to get worse. The benefics of Jupiter here are muted by its Rx condition, and the again and again repeating of the Rx.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
I checked with that section several times and saw nothing. So where to move to?
As you said elsewhere, the O.P was referring to the asteroid Lilith, which I have not studied. Your own question was about BML, though, and that is what I replied to.
Thank you for the feedback. It is much appreciated.
Frisiangal
Well-known member
In terms of health astrology the (astro.com) chart shows
; 150*
(BML, not the asteroid). Mercury(breathing) is ruler of Gemini (respiratory issues/lungs)Ascendant (physical constitution), Pluto rules the 6th house (physical ailments). The T-square is in fixed signs; difficulty in breathing?
Problems from birth often find a relationship in harsh aspects between Ascendant and 6th house rulerships, whilst
(BML), as inherent trait, is becoming more the rule than the exception where (un)manifested traits take a turn to become physical issues.It was amusing to read in the astro.com notes that Teddy Roosevelt used his asthma 'to get what he wanted'...
, and that he 'could not be controlled'...
150*
(uncontrollable/untameable!). It's always so interesting to discover that there are more ways than one that point in, and to, the same direction of chart themes.