Apparent Sociopath (Goat/Gemini) with schizophrenia in her family

This person I know is a wonderful person at heart. She is full of love and has the desire to create something beautiful and great! But she matches every factor that is used to diagnose sociopaths (with the exception of physical violence), according to Wikipedia.

She herself told me that she was even worse when she was a teen/young adult. She was cruel and abusive to men among other things.

I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I know she has it in her family and is worried about it. It may even have been her mother, which of course also suggests environmental factors.

Here is her chart: http://www.aerynmartin.com/astrology/natalshart_empathy.gif

Is there anything in her chart that represents this apparent lack of empathy and lack of integrity towards people and right & wrong?

I dont find some specific reason about your friend's problem. Not all things in life are Astrology's fault, there will be some other natural factors that are affecting her.

I focused on her mercury, her 3rd house(mind) and ruler.

-So she has Mercury in Cancer (Not the best sign for mercury) it makes the person act according emotions, changeable mind, and not logical.
-Mercury in the 12th (Not a good position for Mercury because is the natural house of pisces "the sign where mercury is very weak") this makes her non practical, dreamy, misunderstood, non-realist, and she acts according what she imagine) So in a personal point of view I relate that with schizophrenia.
-Neptune strong in Scorpio is squaring the moon in the mind's house. (again.. dreamy mind)
-Her 3rd house is not in the best condition: Moon, Pluto, and Uranus are there affecting very much her way of thinking.
- Sun is the ruler of the 3rd house and its in Gemini (good)... placed in the 12th (bad) as it is the ruler of mind's house. (again, dreamy mind, and acts according what she imagines)

so there you have my answer
hope it helps.

Hi Virgo18!

Thank you for your response. Of course I am not looking for 'blame' in astrology. I just figured she'd be an interesting subject to look into, for those who are interested in the links between astrology and abnormal psychology.

And yes, logic is not her strong suit. Math, computers... they don't agree with her. Her actions and responses are very much driven by her emotions. Good catch!

Here is her chart: http://www.aerynmartin.com/astrology/natalshart_empathy.gif

Is there anything in her chart that represents this apparent lack of empathy and lack of integrity towards people and right & wrong?[/QUOTE]


I would look to Jupiter and the 9th house for indications of conscience and right/wrong-ness of activities.

Jupiter is conjunct Venus in Leo, which shows a definite attraction to their own ideas and philosophies, and this person will dramatically claim their way to be the best way. In the first house conjunct second house cusp, this conjunction indicates a very materialistic personality who uses his/her possessions as an extension of self-worth. This could also include using people as material objects to better her perception her own self-worth. I could see this manifesting as the super-princess, using her charm and beauty to mask what she does not like about herself (or what she simply just does not want to show). Then, taking the semi-square this conjunction makes to Uranus/Pluto, we can say this person obsesses over her image, an image she likes to portray as shocking, innovative or unusual.

Looking to the 9th house, Uranus is the ruler, and Uranus is in a conjunction to Pluto in the 3rd/4th cusp, which would indicate her ideals and life philosophies would be somewhat strange or highly unusual is someway. This may be where the schizophrenia comes into the picture. She may not have a clear understanding of right/wrong issues because of mental illness in her family. Her parental modeling was probably off, with little bonding, or maybe bonding of a negative nature. I would expect there to have been separations with a parent, which would have further undermined her self esteem and positive development of her self-image.

So, I would say her chart does show indications of questionable motives/conscience, probably based on a burning desire to be loved complicated by her need to detach in relationships, a sort of attract/separate instinct to personal relationships. I could see how this could be seen as a lack of conscience, but I see it more of a struggle with morality. With Pluto in the picture, if she focuses on her own positive development, she can change her ways for the better. She needs to develop her self esteem in a positive manner, not through personal conquests of men. Her materialistic nature probably makes it easy for her to use people without thinking of them. Also, a highly self-absorbed nature would make it easy.

I have the day off, so if I think of anything else, I will post! Her mercury is very interesting and does seems to indicate some mental illness. I will try to come back and post later on her mercury.

Even more interesting, Lilith conjunct Eros!

Wow, mysticskye, that sounds very accurate. Thank you! I, too, have come to the conclusion that her judgment is clouded when she's emotional, and that she will take care of herself first, out of fear of rejection or of financial ruin, which makes her look selfish, which contradicts her very apparent big heart when she's relaxed and calm. She still completely fails to see anyone else's perspective though, in matters that concern herself in any way.

Can't wait to see whether you find anything else!

Aeryn said:

This person I know is a wonderful person at heart. She is full of love and has the desire to create something beautiful and great! But she matches every factor that is used to diagnose sociopaths (with the exception of physical violence), according to Wikipedia.

She herself told me that she was even worse when she was a teen/young adult. She was cruel and abusive to men among other things.

I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I know she has it in her family and is worried about it. It may even have been her mother, which of course also suggests environmental factors.

Here is her chart: http://www.aerynmartin.com/astrology/natalshart_empathy.gif

Is there anything in her chart that represents this apparent lack of empathy and lack of integrity towards people and right & wrong?

Click to expand...

Hi there, I didn't read everyones posts so I apologize if there is anything I repeated.

I think she definitely has indicators of emotional/mental problems, whether it's schizophrenia it's hard to say. She has a T-square with Mercury at the apex in the 12th house squaring Mars and Saturn. This is a very explosive energy. She might bottle things up and then just go off on people. Sun square Pluto can be a bit of a bully at times, mix in Uranus and there is a your cruel streak. It's very similar to Mars in hard aspect to Uranus or Pluto in the natal chart in terms or anger issues and such. She has Moon, Uranus and Pluto in her 3rd, I imagine if she had siblings she was pretty terrible to them at times maybe even became estranged from them. Moon is also square Neptune, she can be very loving and nurturing but she doesn't always see herself clearly.

Thank you very much!!

Vista said:

She has Moon, Uranus and Pluto in her 3rd, I imagine if she had siblings she was pretty terrible to them at times maybe even became estranged from them.

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This is interesting because she actually has a brother, who she seems to be cool with, and she has a little half-sister, who she raised as a mother, because their mother couldn't. And those two are super tight. She even spoils her. Any balancing factors in the chart that could explain this contradiction?

As far as I can tell she's good with her loved ones today. The ones she keeps hurting and abusing and disrespecting are the people who work for her, who were loyal to her for many years, who she even called friends, until she threw them under the bus for the sake of her own financial security and for the sake of... making life easier for herself? Maybe it's a status/power thing?

She views herself as utterly loyal. But when she needs to protect herself, or when you hurt her, which is easy to do if you don't walk on eggshells, there is no reasoning with her. She will lash out and point fingers at everyone else to protect her self-image. It's very explosive, too. I don't think she broods.

This is interesting, I picked up immediately on the mercury. . .but to add to the general discussion I will mention that 3rd house moon can mean unstable mind... one that is ruled by moon, mother (emotions) and therefore the "un-constant moon" seems to describe her mental self really well. Her relating to others, her sense of identity through inter-personal relationships was highly disrupted. She must be continually seeking for validation from others for her sacrifices and her NOBLE (leo) place that must be recognized!!

A factor the moon can display in any house - is that the individual is unhealthily attached (like a mother) in this case, to her perception (ruled by gemini - third house.) So she isn't so much schizophrenic as borderline personality disorder and unable to stop her craving for certain relationships (like Marilyn Monroe) - and given to delusions when she fears she is loosing control of the one thing that haunts her life and is "UNFAIR" - which she wants to be free from at the same time doesn't because its would mean giving up a MAJOR part of her identity (especially with all the planets in the 3rd house.) Its her "Cross" to bear that really doesn't have to be there.

Her personality is wrapped around that life has always made her take responsibility for another... (I knew a cap sun with gemini moon in 3rd who always blamed mother for leaving and having 6 kids with 6 differend fathers!) This is the drama that is playing over and over in her leo moon (center of attention, leader, dramatic, broken heart) and very watery emotional (cancer mercury) head... which she is reacting too in extremes of affection or retreat. .. over and over. Whatever room she is in, I'm certain that she dominates it. Even when she isn't around she has an impact on people.

Interestingly however, once one lets go of the "story" real life starts. Its not all bad. Pluto in virgo in the 3rd house shows that she does have real executive power over others. . . and can help them on their way to a better life. . .if she is really ready to do it. . .and I think she is trapped in delusion right now and not ready to accept that she isn't leader material . She is afraid of having a boring, low-class life I suppose and doesn't want to admit that taking a simpler, smaller life is the bravest choice there is for her. She creates the radical ideas because she doesn't want to think she is just "normal." That would upset her identity perception which would lead to an emotional and existential crisis but everyone needs them in order to grow up!

Her power lies in her ability to take care of others - pluto shows her "hades" like power to transform the situation into virgo - healing. Which can help her move towards her ultimate source of stillness - if she were to actually let go of the persona of the tortured caretaker who has a right to create more drama for others because "everything revolves around her." She might not think that . . . in fact her thoughts are probably very caring like you said, but she certainly FEELS like EVERYTHING REVOLVES around her with the moon in leo.. and her feelings are so strong they keep pulling her back into bad choices again and again because IT HURTS to let go of the "GRAND SCHEMES" of leo and grow up. . . like a mother giving birth to herself into a healthy leo moon, which is endlessly generous and not self-serving at all - and can realize that the stage is not just for one person.

North node in taurus means its her destiny to find true material value for herself in this life through consistency, stillness, slow and patient- something in a past life she did may be forcing her to commit to this. . .and with the north node in the 11th house her ultimate goal is to find a true connection with society by being destined build real valuable things in the domain of relating to others. .. what does it mean to be a friend? what can she give to others without needing all the time? she will never find her friendships to be fullfilling until she treats others with respect. . . means not demanding and creating chaos for others anymore. . . which her traumatic past keeps recreating when she is afraid. . and she can LET GO of her false "story" that she is the one in charge and needs to be in charge. . .


The problem is it appears that she is really attached to others - and feels that life is unfair to her so she has a right to act inconsistently . . .DRAMA QUEEN. . .is all she is. . bipolar, hystrionic or Borderline Personality Disorder would be a better description. Like Marylin Monroe felt empty without all the attention. . . But to be honest. . aspects in a chart trump all stupid western for-profit labels.

Thing is she will need be detached from the terrible
feelings which are her true enemy. She can ride them like waves, instead of being sucked into them.

Aeryn said:

Thank you very much!!


This is interesting because she actually has a brother, who she seems to be cool with, and she has a little half-sister, who she raised as a mother, because their mother couldn't. And those two are super tight. She even spoils her. Any balancing factors in the chart that could explain this contradiction?

As far as I can tell she's good with her loved ones today. The ones she keeps hurting and abusing and disrespecting are the people who work for her, who were loyal to her for many years, who she even called friends, until she threw them under the bus for the sake of her own financial security and for the sake of... making life easier for herself? Maybe it's a status/power thing?

She views herself as utterly loyal. But when she needs to protect herself, or when you hurt her, which is easy to do if you don't walk on eggshells, there is no reasoning with her. She will lash out and point fingers at everyone else to protect her self-image. It's very explosive, too. I don't think she broods.

Click to expand...

Maybe the square to Mars makes her lose control. The 3rd house besides being the house of siblings it's also the house of communications, neighbors, and short trips. Issues in all these areas could be possible. Nice to know she was able to maintain relationships with her siblings not to say she couldn't sabotage this later down the road. I would agree with the other poster that she isn't necessarily schizo, but a chemical imbalance definitely sounds right.

Vista and Rushwing, thank you so much for contributing to this discussion!! This is incredible!

Rushwing, I can't confirm or deny everything you wrote, but it all seemed very true to who I knew her to be. Thank you!!

It doesn't look like she was 'born' without the ability to express emotions, feel feelings for others, etc. as a common 'sociopath' would be. She seems like someone who just tries to be like this (and maybe has convinced herself of this) because her chart says she is actually quite emotional and probably pretty changeable.

I'm about to throw my few cents worth in here. I have also re-drawn her chart using Equal House System, if that's any use to anyone. I'm a bit uncomfortable about the skewed nature of charts of people born a long way north.

I agree with much of what others say, especially the effects of the T-square, with that unfortunately placed Mercury at the apex.

As I was reading other posts I couldn't help but feel that this person has brought some survival behaviours with them from past lives, and - bingo - there is the survival-of-the-fittest south node in Scorpio in the 4th house. MSN in Scorpio is the ultimate test for someone who also has Chiron in the last degree of Pisces!!!!! Add to that the inconjunct between Sun and Neptune, and this person is on a mission to survive or else. Whether she is conscious of this or not (and I suspect that her behaviour is driven by unconscious memories of `survival') she acts from a belief that it's `them or me'.

You see, those born with MSN in Scorpio come from past life histories which are very dramatic, and often quite horrific - murder, withcraft, war, famines, etc, etc - and so any early experiences which made her feel vulnerable would tend to `switch on' these memories. (I also have MSN in Scorpio, so I am very familiar with what this means. I had a battle with `bad' behaviour until my Saturn Return. My Jupiter in Sag in the 11th has saved me, I think)

Added to that is her Chiron at the anaretic degree of Pisces... The Chiron in Pisces generation have been incarnated as a collective to work with their belief that the world is unsafe and that their safety and security will be taken from them at any moment. Given her Chiron is in the 9th house (in equal house system) then this has become the basis of her belief system, and all roads in her life emanate from this place.

Most sociopaths begin to behave as they do initially out of fear. When they find that they can get their needs met in this way, then it becomes a way of life for them.

R4VEN, that sounds extremely accurate. Since I started this topic I've had a chance to reevaluate her behavior thanks to the many insightful replies.

She is definitely extremely emotional. Her actions are impulsive and steered by these emotions. She rarely takes a step back to look at things objectively. She has problems wrapping her head around anything logical.

She is selfish and egocentric out of her perceived struggle for survival. Lying is part of her MO. I recognize the pattern because I used to be in it as a teen for a few years until I realized that the truth gets you so much further. She clearly hasn't had that epiphany and she lies about everything because she fears that the truth will push people away. Even with people who I know would have supported her. Instead she drove them away with her lies.

She knows that she has abandonment issues. But she is completely blind to the fact that she lies as much as she does. She can not show weakness.

The smallest thing can trigger her fight or flight response and sadly she chooses to deceive or attack, leaving a wake of destruction behind her.

Having said all that, she does have a great capacity for love. But it is cast aside and sold out when she feels that she has to fight for her survival. She has convinced herself that this is life, she has to do what she has to do. Everybody else just doesn't understand. (How could they if she keeps lying about everything?)

Her mind is working miracles in protecting her self-image.

Dear Aeryn:

I'm a little confused as to the question of this topic: Did you ask if your friend may be schizophrenic or a sociopath? God knows I am not collage educated in the area of abnormal psych. but I am a reader and I've never thought the two were related. Schizophrenia is a largely genetic condition due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. There are arguements by professionals re: nature/nurture. It's my understanding that sociopaths more likely resemble the 'Hannible Lectors' of the world. You said deep down your friend was kind hearted. Sounds like shes the victim of an unfortunate Mercury and other aspects.

I don't mean to butt-in this interesting thread, I think your friend is lucky she has you. I just wanted to be clear on what you meant.

Thanks, Serafin5

Aeryn said:

This person I know is a wonderful person at heart. She is full of love and has the desire to create something beautiful and great! But she matches every factor that is used to diagnose sociopaths (with the exception of physical violence), according to Wikipedia.

She herself told me that she was even worse when she was a teen/young adult. She was cruel and abusive to men among other things.

I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I know she has it in her family and is worried about it. It may even have been her mother, which of course also suggests environmental factors.

Here is her chart: http://www.aerynmartin.com/astrology/natalshart_empathy.gif

Is there anything in her chart that represents this apparent lack of empathy and lack of integrity towards people and right & wrong?

Click to expand...

Here is a back-of-the-envelope Sabian Symbol analysis. I'll leave it to you to determine if it has any significance.

thoughtfully
sdh3

Sun - GE22 - A barn dance
Moon - LE28 - Many little birds on the limb of a large tree
Merc - CA17 - The germ grows into knowledge and life
Venu - LE08 - A Bolshevik propagandist
Mars - LI17 - An old sea captain rocking
Jupi - LE04 - A man formally dressed and a deer with its horns folded
Satr - AR12 - A flock of wild geese
Nept - SC23 - A bunny metamorphosed into a fairy
Uran - VI21 - A girl's basketball team
Plut - VI19 - A swimming race


THEME 1: Socially-based physical activity and sports/recreation; all are inherently or are potentially competitive in nature.

Sun - GE22 - A barn dance
Uran - VI21 - A girl's basketball team
Plut - VI19 - A swimming race


THEME 2: Fauna (animals, wildlife)

Moon - LE28 - Many little birds on the limb of a large tree
Jupi - LE04 - A man formally dressed and a deer with its horns folded
Satr - AR12 - A flock of wild geese
Nept - SC23 - A bunny metamorphosed into a fairy

THEME 3: Men (strong, authority figures)

Venu - LE08 - A Bolshevik propagandist
Mars - LI17 - An old sea captain rocking
Jupi - LE04 - A man formally dressed and a deer with its horns folded

Note 1: "Bolshevik" is Russian for "strong." A "captain" is an authority
figure. The "formally dressed man" is often thought of as a hunter in
his trophy room and/or beside a deer (buck, doe, fawn) that he has just shot/killed.

Propaganda is a synonym of "lie" or twisted truth but has less malign
meanings too.


Note 2: note the somewhat suggestive similarities in pronunciation and homonymy:

fauna = "the animals of a particular region, habitat, or geological period"
fawn (n.) = a young deer
dear-1 (adj.): loved and cherished
dear-1 (n.) : One that is greatly loved
dear-1 (adv): At a high cost
dear-2 (adj.): serious, grievous, sore
fawn (v.) = "To exhibit affection or attempt to please, as a dog does by wagging its tail, whining, or cringing"
fawn (v.) = To seek favor or attention by flattery and obsequious behavior.

sdh3, thank you for that! I've never heard of it but it looks interesting and I'll have to look into it further!

Hey Serafin5, all good.

She has been shockingly unempathetic and increasingly erratic in recent years. The erratic part is what inspired me to mention that she has schizophrenia in her family - her mother in fact. I don't know anything about it and thought it might or might not be relevant. She may just be at the end of her rope due to far too many deaths in her family in recent years, including her mother.

The Sociopath was definitely a serious concern of mine because she exhibits most of the traits as listed on Wikipedia. She has made cold-hearted choices, thereby abandoning friends, who had been loyal to her for years - to work with someone who clearly is sociopathic. But due to her own lack of empathy she didn't see the suffering she was causing, was even offended because her friends weren't supportive of her choices. And she believed her sociopathic partner's showmanship and signs of affection for her (as a business partner) and embraced his corporate way of doing business, which was promising her profit and making her life so much easier.

He booted her out last week.

Aeryn said:

sdh3, thank you for that! I've never heard of it but it looks interesting and I'll have to look into it further!

Click to expand...

Most welcome Aeryn. There's a Sabian Symbols forum on this website and many others around the web. In short, there is one symbol or each degree of the Zodiac. If you google "Sabian Symbols" you'll find tons of links. Let me know if I can be of more help in that regard.

thoughtfully
sdh3

Aeryn said:

Is there anything in her chart that represents this apparent lack of empathy and lack of integrity towards people and right & wrong?

Click to expand...

I think personality disorders can be difficult to diagnose, from a layman perspective -- especially antisocial disorder.

As soon as you used the word 'loyal' in another comment, I went straight to the chart to see if I saw the 'loyalty' aspect. True enough, she's being 'real' with you here. She IS loyal to her friends and partners (Venus Trine Saturn) but she is not trustworthy, lacks integrity, and will 'tell on others' -- share 'secrets / gossip' (Mercury Square Saturn) if it's to her advantage. Actually, she may not even remember who told her what and may not even remember if she said anything (forgetfullness due to Mercury in the 12th). I know it should seem to go hand-in-hand (loyalty and trustworthiness) but it doesn't for her. And given she has a T-Square with the Apex Mercury in the 12th, she probably isn't aware of what she is saying or doing.

If I were to see sociopathy, I would look to see what Scorpio, Taurus, Pisces, Pluto, Venus, Neptune, the 2nd, 8th, 12th, and a poorly aspected Sun was doing. And I would probably check out Mercury, Gemini, and the 3rd house too. Also, it often shows in a T-Square and/or small talent triangle set-up.

I would think narcissism would show up in NorthEast charts and sociopathy in SouthWest... Your friend is mostly NorthEast. So I would say she's not a sociopath and possibly a narcissist or some other self-oriented disorder, if she even has a disorder.

Aeryn said:

sdh3, thank you for that! I've never heard of it but it looks interesting and I'll have to look into it further!

Hey Serafin5, all good.

She has been shockingly unempathetic and increasingly erratic in recent years. The erratic part is what inspired me to mention that she has schizophrenia in her family - her mother in fact. I don't know anything about it and thought it might or might not be relevant. She may just be at the end of her rope due to far too many deaths in her family in recent years, including her mother.

The Sociopath was definitely a serious concern of mine because she exhibits most of the traits as listed on Wikipedia. She has made cold-hearted choices, thereby abandoning friends, who had been loyal to her for years - to work with someone who clearly is sociopathic. But due to her own lack of empathy she didn't see the suffering she was causing, was even offended because her friends weren't supportive of her choices. And she believed her sociopathic partner's showmanship and signs of affection for her (as a business partner) and embraced his corporate way of doing business, which was promising her profit and making her life so much easier.

He booted her out last week.

Click to expand...

When I look at lack of empathy, I look for Aquarius -- especially an Aquarius Moon. Her Aquarius is on the 8th house cusp (but Moon in Leo -- opposite Aquarius, of the same coin) so it does say something about how she deals with extreme change, and endings -- coldly!

Mmm... my thinking is, w/o definitive diagnosis, would be borderline, not Narcissism. I heard its not too common with women, they get more histrionic, and she doesn't have that going from your descriptions.... though she did overvalue her relationship with that business man that then kicked her to the curb, which is histrionic. Does she crave attention (sorry if I missed that somewhere)? Sociopaths are much more secretive I might imagine, and schizophrenia more psychotic, where admittedly, her decisions, though cruel and inconsiderate, were not psychotic per se, just coldly calculating and cutting in their logic.

Borderlines are sensitivity to criticism. He could have very well given her the boot because her emotions might have been out of control. She is logical then, but her view of things is very distorted. For example, some minor upset becomes a big deal for her. It makes sense to be upset, but she blows it out of proportions. Cancer ASC is naturally sensitive, so is Pisces MC, but its the Saturn-Mars opposition which makes her blow hot and cold with people. Saturn rules her DC, her relationships, and Borderlines are plagued and plague their closest relationships, particularly those which make them feel insecure (which is probably why she is ok with the kiddos), like romantic partners, but also people they work with. Saturn is in Aries, and opposite a Mars in Libra, so Saturn is very strong here, ruling the Mars energy in Libra, and probably manifests as her having very strict rules about how people treat her, and strict rules for her relationship, but poor control or management of her energies, and low awareness of how she impacts others (making her seem self-centered). The Mars energy is hot, and the Saturn energy is cold, but there is an uncomfortable exchange here as Saturn would be exalted in Libra, and Mars dignified in Aries. I would imagine she is very impulsive.