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  #1  
Unread 11-08-2017, 06:34 AM
Kiril stoychev Kiril stoychev is offline
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A new perspective on the exaltation and The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aq

I would like to share one of my research on the exaltation of the planets.

„Compared to rulership, the exaltation of planets is a very unclear and speculative topic in modern astrology. The concept we are using today has no clear logic or origin and it seems as if it was just given to us. The conception of exaltation arises for the first time in Babylon. The astrologers in the VII-VI century BC have noted that every planet has its own “hidden place” –“bit nisirti“, each “hidden place” corresponds to a specific constellation.“
You can read the entire article here:

http://astrohoroscope.info/stoycheff/?p=269

I look at the origin of the exaltations, the meaning they had originally, and I propose a new look at this dignity of the planets.

Does it correspond to your personal observations and your horoscope

I expect to read your comments, suggestions, criticism

[Merged two self promoting threads so that they're both on the Advertising board, per forum rules. - Moderator]


Last edited by Osamenor; 11-29-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 11-08-2017, 11:04 PM
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Re: A new perspective on the exaltation

Wow, that's fascinating! Mind = blown. The part which explained the link between the exaltation degrees and the point of maximum elongation has been particularly enlightening. I think your explanation of the whole concept of exaltation is the most convincing among those I've seen and it's certainly the most original. However, I have a question: what's the logic of assigning the Sun's exaltation to the 19th degree and the Moon's to the 3rd degree? As you say, the Sun's and Moon's "places of exaltation are not mentioned in the ancient texts" so it was a later addition, and here is the follow-up question: Who added that and why? I've noticed a long time ago that the distance between these points is 14 degrees which is close to the distance used to determine when the planet is under the Sun's beams (usually 15 degrees) so 3-4 Taurus is where the Moon should get from the Sun's beams and become visible for the first time. If this is indeed related to this, I still don't know why those particlar degrees were picked. Do you have any thoughts?

Also another thing which maybe you know but didn't really mention in the article is that in the times of Ptolemy, Valens and others the term "detriment" wasn't used at all. Planets in the sign opposite to its domicile were not deemed weak or debilitated. It's the same way in today's Vedic astrology... Detriment was popularized by Arabs much later or so I've read (I'm not 100% sure so I'm not a reliable source of information on that matter). But anyway, from the perspective of an ancient astrologer, Jupiter being exalted in Virgo may not would have been a huge problem if they applied the scheme you've created. The same with Mercury being exalted in Pisces if we don't consider this sign being the fall of Mercury. By the way, do you consider Jupiter being in domicile AND fall in Pisces and Mercury being in domicile AND fall in Virgo? How do you explain that if you use it this way?

I personally like your idea quite a lot. I'm not sure if I'm switching to your approach anytime soon but you've definitely provided an extremely interesting and fresh perspective which I really appreciate. I like your way of thinking.
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  #3  
Unread 11-09-2017, 09:31 PM
Kiril stoychev Kiril stoychev is offline
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Re: A new perspective on the exaltation

The Babylonian New year began with the first waxing crescent moon phase after the spring equinox. Since the Sun is in Aries during that time, the moon, as I wrote in my article, may be in Taurus or it can be in Aries if the Sun is in the first few degrees of Aries.

From where do the degrees of exaltation of the Sun and Moon come from? According to me, from a specific observation that was made and recorded by the Babylonian astrologers.

This observation was made on the 2nd of April, 748 BC, at sunset (This is according to my personal opinion, I don’t have evidence). At that time, according to the sidereal zodiac the Sun is in the 19th degree of Aries, and the Moon is in the 3rd degree of Taurus. All the degrees of exaltation we use in the tropical zodiac today, come from observations of the planets and their position in the sidereal zodiac, during the time of the Babylonians. (8th-6th centuries BC). So I think it is unwise to use the exact same degrees in the tropical zodiac now.

I assume the day (2nd of April, 748 BC) that year, was in some kind of great importance to Babylonians. That is why an observation was made and recorded, and later on was taken and used by the Greeks as well.

The fall of planets in the opposite sign of their exaltation is a newer concept. It did not exist when the Babylonians created their method for determining exaltations. That is why I think it is better for Jupiter and Mercury to be considered domicile in the signs Pisces and Virgo.
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  #4  
Unread 11-10-2017, 10:47 AM
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Re: A new perspective on the exaltation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril stoychev View Post
I would like to share one of my research on the exaltation of the planets.

„Compared to rulership, the exaltation of planets is a very unclear and speculative topic in modern astrology. The concept we are using today has no clear logic or origin and it seems as if it was just given to us. The conception of exaltation arises for the first time in Babylon. The astrologers in the VII-VI century BC have noted that every planet has its own “hidden place” –“bit nisirti“, each “hidden place” corresponds to a specific constellation.“
You can read the entire article here:

http://astrohoroscope.info/stoycheff/?p=269

I look at the origin of the exaltations, the meaning they had originally, and I propose a new look at this dignity of the planets.

Does it correspond to your personal observations and your horoscope

I expect to read your comments, suggestions, criticism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril stoychev View Post
The Babylonian New year began with the first waxing crescent moon phase after the spring equinox. Since the Sun is in Aries during that time, the moon, as I wrote in my article, may be in Taurus or it can be in Aries if the Sun is in the first few degrees of Aries.

From where do the degrees of exaltation of the Sun and Moon come from? According to me, from a specific observation that was made and recorded by the Babylonian astrologers.

This observation was made on the 2nd of April, 748 BC, at sunset (This is according to my personal opinion, I don’t have evidence). At that time, according to the sidereal zodiac the Sun is in the 19th degree of Aries, and the Moon is in the 3rd degree of Taurus. All the degrees of exaltation we use in the tropical zodiac today, come from observations of the planets and their position in the sidereal zodiac, during the time of the Babylonians. (8th-6th centuries BC). So I think it is unwise to use the exact same degrees in the tropical zodiac now.

I assume the day (2nd of April, 748 BC) that year, was in some kind of great importance to Babylonians. That is why an observation was made and recorded, and later on was taken and used by the Greeks as well.

The fall of planets in the opposite sign of their exaltation is a newer concept. It did not exist when the Babylonians created their method for determining exaltations. That is why I think it is better for Jupiter and Mercury to be considered domicile in the signs Pisces and Virgo.
Cyril Fagans discovery
that planetary exaltation degrees
were the heliacal positions of the planets for the year 786 BC.
is explained in his book ZODIACS OLD AND NEW
currently available on amazon

WESTERN SIDEREAL FORUM at
http://www.solunars.com/index.php?sid=b632d5c29c5612505499c92236d71168
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  #5  
Unread 11-12-2017, 06:09 PM
Kiril stoychev Kiril stoychev is offline
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Re: A new perspective on the exaltation

I am familiar with Cyril Fagan‘s work, but I do not agree with him for the following reasons:

On the 3rd of April, 786 B.C, the day he suggests, the only time the Moon can be observed is at sunset. It‘s position is in Taurus at 1 degrees, not at 3 degrees, compared to the date I mentioned earlier (2nd of April 748 BC).

Secondly, the Babylonians did not use the exaltations the way we use them today, as a dignity. During their time the term exaltation was referring to the planet‘s position, when it reached its maximum ecliptic latitude. This was knows as the planet‘s “hidden place” or “bit nisirti“, as I have explained in my article. This place was not always the same within the zodiac, it changed overtime, that is why some planets have more than one “hidden place“ (exaltation).

Finally, on the 3rd of April, 786 B.C Venus is in the degree, which we consider now to be its exaltation (27 degrees in Pisces). But Venus has not reached its maximum ecliptic latitude at that time, therefor it is wrong to assume that Venus was exalted on that day.
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  #6  
Unread 11-28-2019, 09:23 AM
Kiril stoychev Kiril stoychev is offline
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The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac and Aquarian Age

I share in this forum one of my studies on the origin of the zodiac:

The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac:

http://astrohoroscope.info/stoycheff/?p=367


Summary: Historical development of the concept of zodiac signs. Why is there a 8-9 day difference between the start of the season and the beginning of the month in today’s calendar? Which comes first – the constellations, zodiac signs, or the calendar? Where did zodiac signs come from?

We also have the question whether the names of the constellations attributed to the meaning of the signs, or is there another mechanism that explains why each sign has its specific characterizations?

Another question that needs answers is whether the meaning (the characteristic) of a sign, for example Aries, is somehow related to the zodiacal constellations, to the sidereal or to the tropical zodiac.


When did the Age of Aquarius begin, if we use the method of observing the stars with the naked eye, as the Sumerians and Babylonians did?
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  #7  
Unread 11-28-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

I thank you for the sites that you have provided.

I agree that we are already in the Aquarian Age. Thomas Burgoyne has it starting at winter solstice in the late 1800's, I haven't had coffee yet, I will get you the exact date later. At the start of the Industrial Revolution. Tesla and Edison were innovating electricity.

Looking forward to conversations. Coffee is ready.
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  #8  
Unread 11-28-2019, 01:46 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

I have started to read your article before I started my coffee. Thank you for sharing.
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  #9  
Unread 11-28-2019, 01:49 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril stoychev View Post

I share in this forum one of my studies on the origin of the zodiac:

The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac:

http://astrohoroscope.info/stoycheff/?p=367

Summary: Historical development of the concept of zodiac signs. Why is there a 8-9 day difference between the start of the season and the beginning of the month in today’s calendar? Which comes first – the constellations, zodiac signs, or the calendar? Where did zodiac signs come from?

We also have the question whether the names of the constellations attributed to the meaning of the signs, or is there another mechanism that explains why each sign has its specific characterizations?

Another question that needs answers is whether the meaning (the characteristic) of a sign, for example Aries, is somehow related to the zodiacal constellations, to the sidereal or to the tropical zodiac.


Thank you for highlighting this information

unfortunately we have no separate sidereal board
however sidereal is often discussed on our traditiona board
when within the context of the origins of astrology
another thread discussion you may find of interest on that topic
on this our traditional board is

THE SIDEREAL ZODIAC IN PERSIAN AND HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=129961

and a thread on our chat board

SEVEN ARGUMENTS WHY SIDEREAL IS BEST FORM OF SIGN DIVISION
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=116254

and also on our chat board
LIST OF ERRONEOUS ILLOGICAL and FICTITIOUS SYSTEMS IN ASTROLOGY
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=125407
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Unread 11-28-2019, 01:52 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post

I thank you for the sites that you have provided.

I agree that we are already in the Aquarian Age. Thomas Burgoyne has it starting at winter solstice in the late 1800's, I haven't had coffee yet, I will get you the exact date later. At the start of the Industrial Revolution. Tesla and Edison were innovating electricity.

Looking forward to conversations. Coffee is ready
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril stoychev View Post

When did the Age of Aquarius begin, if we use the method of observing the stars with the naked eye, as the Sumerians and Babylonians did?

the idea of there being "Astrological Ages" is not considered a traditional topic
and in any event part of Kiril stoychevs opening post
is already being discussed on another board
SHOULD THE TROPICAL ZODIAC INCLUDE ASTROLOGICAL AGES
at H https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130462
and Kiril stoychev has already commented on the discussion there
so good idea to continue the discussion there as you are already commenting
on that thread also
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  #11  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
the idea of there being "Astrological Ages" is not considered a traditional topic
and in any event part of Kiril stoychevs opening post
is already being discussed on another board
SHOULD THE TROPICAL ZODIAC INCLUDE ASTROLOGICAL AGES
at H https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130462
and Kiril stoychev has already commented on the discussion there
so good idea to continue the discussion there as you are already commenting
on that thread also
Yes there is many threads here on the Ages, but the thread he answered in is about the Tropical Ages. That is not a good fit.
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  #12  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:03 PM
Kiril stoychev Kiril stoychev is offline
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

The main point in my article is that the names and meanings given to the zodiacal constellations are derived from the 12 months of the ancient Sumerian calendar. In other words, the zodiac has a tropical (related to the turning points of the Sun) origin.
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  #13  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:06 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post

Yes there is many threads here on the Ages, but
the thread he answered in is about the Tropical Ages.
That is not a good fit.
however he himself explicitly discusses sidereal matters on that thread
so from that perspective it's good place for discussion
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Yes there is many threads here on the Ages, but the thread he answered in is about the Tropical Ages. That is not a good fit.

About the Ages: They are not related to what we can calculate, but to what we can see with the naked eye
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril stoychev View Post

The main point in my article is
that the names and meanings given to the zodiacal constellations
are derived from the 12 months of the ancient Sumerian calendar.
In other words, the zodiac has a tropical
(related to the turning points of the Sun) origin.
thanks for explaining
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:11 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

From what I have read, I am in agreement with you. For looking to see what age we are in we should use the spring equinox.

For looking at a start date, I look to the winter solstice though. Three days of equal light, culminating in a new year, a new age.

Although, with the Key of Mysteries, I believe the age is could be seen at winter solstice too.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:15 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

When the Sphinx was created, he looked East to the constellation of Leo. As you are showing.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:24 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

I agree he is in the wrong category, it shouldn't in traditional. I think this should have its own, just not in traditional.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:36 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

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I agree he is in the wrong category, it shouldn't in traditional.
I think this should have its own, just not in traditional.
we need a sidereal board
Babylonian is nevertheless traditional
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  #20  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:43 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

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we need a sidereal board
Babylonian is nevertheless traditional
Yes, but the traditional board restricts discussion. I agree, we need a sidereal board.
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  #21  
Unread 11-28-2019, 02:46 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

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When the Sphinx was created, he looked East to the constellation of Leo. As you are showing.

When exactly Sphinx was created?
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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:49 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

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When exactly Sphinx was created?
I would say in one of the ages of Leo. I cannot determine which one.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 03:00 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

I do believe it will be in one of The Ages of Leo though.
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  #24  
Unread 11-28-2019, 08:22 PM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Why the stars of the zodiacal constellations were important to the ancient Sumerians - because they are close to the ecliptic that marks the path of the Sun. And the Sun is this factor that created the tropical zodiac from which we can derive meanings.

So, in my opinion, which I support with Emeliyanov's research, the zodiac arose as a result of the interaction between the Sun and man (Earth), which gave birth to human civilization (respectively, life on earth). The sun is projected in the ecliptic on the celestial sphere, the earth is projected on the celestial sphere as the celestial equator (The celestial equator is the great circle of the imaginary celestial sphere on the same plane as the equator of Earth). The intersection of both is the point of the vernal (and autumn) equinox.


This is why this point is so important and it marks the beginning of the tropical zodiac.

Houses represent a local system between Earth and the Sun and are even more relevant than the signs.

In terms of ages, they are related to precession. Obviously, this movement must also be taken into account (but since the cycle is very long - 26,000 years, it would be relevant for the individual stages that humanity goes through - ages).

The equinox point is moving relative to the fixed stars, so we can look for a starting point in the fixed stars and track its displacement. But we can also say that the equinox is fixed and the constellations are displaced (because in the universe every movement is relative)


Indeed, we cannot see the vernal point, but we can see which constellation rises on the first day of spring. And today this is the Aquarius constellation.

Last edited by Kiril stoychev; 11-28-2019 at 08:52 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 11-29-2019, 04:06 AM
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Re: The prototype of the Babylonian Zodiac

Have you read Thomas H Burgoyne by chance?

His theories are very interesting.
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