Lilith

Kite

Well-known member
Lilith seems to be coming up a lot lately. For me, she is especially meaningful as she sits within 3 degrees of my Aquarian Ascendent and within 3 degrees of my Chiron (so at the midpoint between Chiron and my Ascendant). With Lilith at 11 degrees Aquarius, I look to Sabian symbol at 12 Aquarius to try to give some insight into this position:

312__(12°)
LIFE'S BROAD STAIRWAY: EACH LANDING, A NEW GRADE OF LIFE Points of pause and tradition, where the soul can evaluate its progress. Graded effort. Necessity for divorcing the past.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective forward point of view and a genuine capitalization on all prior accomplishment, and when negative, frantic efforts to keep ahead of others.

When I read this I got a vision of Lot's wife ignoring his advice to not turn around and view the destruction of the city - she stopped, turned around and turned into a pile of salt as a result. So why this vision? I see our bodies filled with fluid - salt water like the sea. If we were to lose the water element, nothing would be left but salt. Perhaps this tells me that Lilith is related to some kind of emotional dehyration process as brought on by the paternal Gods prior to the Age of Pisces. Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - each causing a drying of our collective ambiotic fluid in the process.

A dried up Lilith could explain the characterization of her as the unwilling submissive to Adam, and the killer of children. Quite an archetype to deal with - especially in a key position in my chart. Dealing with the "Shadow" though has been a lifetime endeavor of mine. I learned at an early age that the path to higher consciousness led through a hall of mirrors known as the "Shadow". The interesting thing about this path is that at every milestone where another unclaimed part of myself is brought back to ownership and transmutation, I find myself to be a little more compassionate and a little less "salty".

I won't get into the specifics of what I've had to cope with in terms of Lilith although I will say that I had to deal with my sexual identity scrutinized both internally and externally beginning at the tender age of 13 (Saturn square Lilith). With Lilith on the Ascendent you could say that the most private part of my developing psyche was out there in public view. This of course opened the Chiron wound (or put salt on it let's say) and put me on a track to define myself on my own terms with the absolute requirement of total honesty. This sent me on the Hero's Journey to slay my internal dragons and rescue my dilapidated princess. Each step brings me newfound fluid and hope for wholeness.

Comments about Lilith?
 
A

Anonymous

Kite,
Thank you for opening this thread. My ascendant is at 12 Aquarius. And I am also focusing on Chiron and Lilith these days.Lilith and what she represents is the dagger stuck in my heart that continues to turn at the hand of a world that represses what is truly feminine, and at the ways my subconcious continues to buy into these programs when I'm on the snooze.


"Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - each causing a drying of our collective ambiotic fluid in the process."


YES, I couldn't agree more.

To me, she is a fragment of the denied Goddess principle. She is the raped and broken feminine, and represents the loss of our collective creativity, and creation. She owns the deep dark between the legs, and is the ruler of the **** . Kind of an uncomfortable subject, eh? She is the old and powerful instinctual intelligence whose loss we are suffering as we flail through our lives disconnected, struggling for balance, and devoid of something big we can't quite wrap our noodle around : acceptance. Like our earthly waters, Lilith is our feminine who has been polluted with toxins meant to bleach the life out of her.,. simply because our collective macho mind does not have the power to control that life. She is the feminine who needs reclaiming and purifying, but this is no job for those unwilling to get their hands dirty. I commend your courage.

I am not an astrological "authority" on Lilith, but I know her, I also know what happens when I show her face publicly and it is entirely unappreciated. In my opinion, she is why so many of us are so damned scared to be our WHOLE selves around each other, because we're all operating on this collective paradigm that there is something within us that is just so bad that we can't possibly own it, let alone show it to each other. Systematically through hystery, I mean history, we have fragmented and shamed away the parts of ourselves that would nourish us and keep us safe, and this what is how I interpret Lilith as the "baby killer". This is my personal truth on who she is, but my perception of her is also rooted in her placement in my chart. She lives in my creative fifth house in Cancer, and is working in a cooperative conjunction with my (White) moon, Jupiter, and Apogee Lilith.

I got violently strangled by my dad at age 15 for refusing to go to Catholic church until they would allow a woman to become priestess, and all women to be honored as righteous spiritual entities. This left a clear sense in my soul that it is fatally dangerous to speak my truth , and I have a rather gnarly father image I am now ceaselessly reworking, but I don't regret a word of what I said, I see my experience as an example of the hell we have to go through to get the Goddess back, and the power we can experience in defending her. My dad has since rescinded his violently blind adherence to Catholic dogma and now writes letters to the pope asking him to allow women equal representation in the parish and also asks him to honor love between same-sex couples, because "love is love," He's changed. We've done years of (terrible) healing work and I am so proud that I cry when I think about it.

This is my Lilith work, my Chiron work, and my Saturn Return in Leo work all combined: the Goddess is not the ANTI-God, but just a complementary facet of a reality system that was meant to be so mind-blowingly beautiful and harmoniously interesting. The Garden is a sexually functional place, but creation will continue to be out of whack until we dig through the murk we've thrown on the feminine to realize she's just what we were searching for. My personal feminine is no where near '"cleaned" but for now, I'm wearing her, dirty reeking blood stains and all so that someday my soul can dance it was made to.

A sister in sludging,
Sita
 
A

Anonymous

shoot. that was my post but i wasn't signed in. i hate that i spelled things wrong but can't get back in to edit.
 

Kite

Well-known member
Thanks for your post Sita. That you consider me a sibling in sludging is flattering. How do you feel about a brother in sludging? We all have our gender sides to deal with to be whole.
 
A

Anonymous

Kite,
I'm so embarrassed, and clearly confused. Somewhere long before this post I got the idea that you were female. I'm sorry and I hope I didn't offfend you.
Sita
 
A

Anonymous

I am so blown away, so impressed by the gut level honesty and deep wise insights in both Kite's and Sita's posts. Wow you 2........Praise The Goddess for She has returned!

I haven't studied in-depth about Lilith but have always thought of Her as representing, as Kite so accurately said it, "Maybe she has become the "shadow" of all the primal Goddess instincts we have collectively disowned - ". I think She does represent the beginning of the end of the Goddess Energies over the past 5 thousand years or so. The primary and deepest wound of the Patriarchal take over after the long Matriarchal period. That old polarity pendulum swinging wildly from one extreme to the other!

But here we all are now, standing with our individual and ancient collective wounds from far and wide, at the beginning of the Age of Aquarius where we are to finally move beyond this polarity game. We've done the Matriarchal learning period, we're at the finish-line right now of this Patriarchal learning period, getting ready to enter a period where these 2 are brought back together again and transmuted into a magical 3rd energy or state of being. The proof of this is Kite's and Sita's posts! :wink:

Out of curiosity, when was Lilith (astrologically) brought back from the nether worlds and returned to humanities consciousness? I have no idea, but this would show us when the main Goddess re-integrations and healings started in us collectively. She, in all Her aspects, has returned through us......and there's a hell of a mess to fix! But we are doing exactly that because it's time.

I intuit that this transit of Pluto across the GC will be dealing with 'The Goddess' issues in really big and intense ways also.

I have Lilith at 14 Pisces 36' - in my 1st house too, so we 3 must carry this archetypal energy right up front and personal!

Kite and I were talking in PM's about healing our Inner Female and Inner Male aspects recently and I'm SO glad Kite, that you started a thread about the Female aspect of this issue. It's so needed and timely. What do any of you think would represent the primary archetypal Male/God energy astrologically? The Sun? Chiron? Maybe because I've got these 2 conjunct natally that that's why I even need to ask this! I'd really like to have a second thread going to match this one that's for the really angry, fragmented, wounded and Homesick aspect of our Inner Male part too. He and I have been 'encountering' and 'working' with each other intensely since my early childhood. My Higher Self obviously knew that this one was going to take nearly a whole life time to integrate!

Thanks to both of you for such powerful, raw, and wise posts about this issue. They helped me very much. I honestly don't think that any of us totally understands how very much we're doing by loving and embracing these ancient fragmented and wounded aspects of ourselves now!
 

Kite

Well-known member
Lapis,

Thanks for your post. When I look at your chart I see Lilith at 19Cancer22. There are 3 Lilith positions I believe. I think your Pisces Lilith is the Asteroid position, the Cancer Lilith would be the point that is calculated in the chart. The other Lilith position has to do with the Apogee of the moon I believe.

When we look at your Cancer position though, it squares your Libra stellium and might account for the shadow male you speak of since Mars is in there conjunct Saturn, Neptune and your Moon. Lilith the Bad Dark Moon as this point is known, sits in your 5th house also conjuncting Uranus which also squares the stellium. Both Lilith and Uranus trine your Venus in 9 which I would think allows these shadow energies to play out in your relationships in ways you can handle.

Kite
 

Lapis

Well-known member
Kite,

The asteriod Lilith, according to astro.com, listes mine at 0 Pisces 37' placing it in my 12th only minutes away from my ASC. They show this asteroid on the chart as "Lilit" only.

According to another source, ASC - Astro Communications Services, where I get all my natal charts, my natal shows Lilith (Dark Moon) - glyph is a circle with a diagonal line through it, at 14 Pisces 36' placing it in my 1st house as I mentioned.

Back at astro.com, under their list of "Additional Objects" Lilith (which one?) is listed along with Chiron and the other asteroid goddesses etc., in the chart represented as the right facing Moon glyph with the cross under it. In my chart this Lilith shows up at 19 Cancer 21' 34" putting it as you said, in my 5th house. Honestly and obviously, I don't know what "Lilith" this one is and I couldn't find any further info about it at astro.com. So.......??? You said there are 3 Lilith's so maybe this is the 3 of them. I trust my ASC natal chart showing the glyph of Lilith (Dark Moon according to them) as the circle with the line through it in my 1st house at 14 Pisces. Like it isn't all complicated enough!
 
A

Anonymous

Lilith is the black moon

In Europe she was first discovered in 1720.She cannot reflect the light of the Sun,like our Moon and can only be observed as she casts her shadow on the Sun if she passes it.

In the bible and the talmud there is some information about her.In the language of symbols Adam is our Earth and Eve is our Moon.One says that Adam first had another woman,Lilith,who was rather wild and primitive and had a fur like an animal.(Every human embryo has,for a short time,in his development in the womb a fur,that falls out later,analogous to the times where Lilith had a bigger influence on mankind and granted him a fur).
The talmud tells that Lilith had a fight with Adam and left him.Three angels catched her and tried to persuade her to come back,but she did not.
So a new woman was created: Eve=Luna=Moon.Lilith was jealous of her and tried to seduce her descendants(that means we,all humans) to sexual games and murder.Her name means night,and is described as a vampire.

(information out of a book)

Lilith is someone who is a seducer,and I immediately think of lolita and lulu,names for girls in smoky nightclubs,with heavy makeup and sexy lingerie who are whispering in your ear,creating an illusion that can come true.You smell her perfume and she sits on your lap,dragging you into a world that doesn't exist....

I think Lilith is the seducer we should not be listening to....
It is something like cocaine,you feel great,but only for a short period of time,seducing you to go the easy way,a dead end street,leading you away from your real destiny we are all,deep in our hearts,aware of...
 

Kite

Well-known member
Lapis - be it far from me to suggest your Lilith should submit to my Lilith :twisted: :)

I see that my Asteroid Lilith is at 24 Taurus conjunct my south node and part of misfortune (what happens to fortune when you get those two in the mix).

Here's some link thats hopefully shines some reflected light on this http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/lilith-dark-moon.html
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
http://nmazca.com/coeli/astroref.htm#lilith

It's not surprising to me that we have a hard time deciding on the true Lilith. Perhaps that's part of the shadow work we all need to do. Reminds me of the movie Body Heat...just when you think you've figured it out :oops:
 

Kite

Well-known member
Here's some more info that might help:

Introduction to Lilith and the Centaurs
- Written by Philip Graves - 22 Jan 2004


What is Lilith?

Lilith is the name given to three altogether distinct phenomena, an asteroid, the Moon's apogee (sometimes known as Black Moon), and a hypothetical second Moon to the Earth (sometimes known as Dark Moon).


Asteroid Lilith

The asteroid Lilith (1181) has a geocentric period of about four years. Its glyph represents the upturned palm of a hand. It signifies conflict resolution (sometimes the incapability to attain this); divided loyalties; favoritism; issues of personal and sexual power, domination (particularly in male nativities) and violence; doubts over the integrity or loyalty of partners; female sexual assertiveness, fantasies, independence and lust; a lack of sexual commitment; love triangles; manipulative relationship behaviour; a non-submissive disposition, particularly with regard to gender roles for women; negotiation and compromise ability; repressed anger (sometimes leading to vindictive behaviour); personal independence; resentment arising from rejection; rivalry for affection, commitment or fidelity; sexual expectations or criticism; subterfuge in relationships; an uncompromising stance over beliefs; and the use of sex as a weapon of vengeance or domination.

Afflicted, Lilith can signify the inability to reach consensus before issues of power can be resolved; perceptions of femininity as being 'bitchy' or evil (particularly in male subjects); or even sexual abuse.

Transits to Lilith bring issues of comparison, competition, preference or rejection to the fore, often with some activity keeping partners relatively apart temporarily, leading to feelings of neglect and jealousy. They can also provoke confrontations with gender role stereotypes. When activated by transits, eclipses or progressions, Lilith placed strongly natally can manifest as a period of sexual disinterest or involvement in love affairs.

In synastry, aspects to Lilith indicate the necessity for those involved to negotiate compromises; and potential sexual difficulties arising from anger, fear, suspicion or rejection.


Apogee (Black Moon) Lilith

In the Moon's orbit of the Earth it periodically reaches its closest distance (perigee) and then its furthest distance (apogee). The longitude of its apogee is known as Lilith or Black Moon. Lilith in this sense is a much more major astrological consideration than either the small asteroid or the altogether questionable 'dark Moon'. The true position of apogee Lilith varies greatly from the often calculated mean position, and includes periods of retrogradation. The geocentric period of apogee Lilith is about nine years; while its glyph is a black Moon sitting over a cross.

Apogee Lilith is believed to be a point of instinctive and emotional intelligence, whereby individuals can gain contact with and feel their inner heartfelt truths and soul longings and passions. Since at Lilith the Moon is more distant from the Earth than usual, the Sun gains relative prominence, and Lilith is also associated with the unveiling of illusions, the illumination of self-defeating behaviour patterns, the exorcism of self-centred desires, and the coming into closer contact with Earth wisdom. A strongly placed Lilith favours art, creativity, detachment from social norms, emotional sensitivity and vulnerability, an uncompromising will, and unconventional relationships. Natal apogee Lilith retrograde is thought to offer past life indications judged by its sign and house placement.

Only conjunctions and oppositions to apogee Lilith within a three degree orb are considered in interpretation. Such aspects to Sun, Mercury or Venus in females are thought to heighten the expression of their sexuality in their public image; those to the Moon can indicate difficulties connected with pregnancy and childbirth; and those to Mars favour the expression of independence, sometimes attracting opposition from men.

In female nativities, a strongly placed Lilith shows consciousness of one's instincts, and confident governance of one's sexuality and childbirth needs; while more negative manifestations of the placement of Lilith can be social isolation stemming from unorthodox manners of functioning, and unsuitable sexual partners. In male nativities, a strongly placed Lilith attracts the individual to equal, fair relationships with strong females, who in turn are attracted to such types as him.

Transits from apogee Lilith bring pain and uncomfortable, uncontrolled emotions in matters connected with the transited planet, and sometimes manifest as vengefulness.

In synastric contacts, apogee Lilith brings a sense of soul connection characterised by a mergeance of personal and impersonal attributes, but with an inclination towards intensity, the uncovering of deep-seated desires, and some danger of obsessiveness and pain.


Hypothetical Moon (Dark Moon) Lilith

In 1618 there was a reported sighting of an apparent second Moon orbiting Earth. Sporadically ever since, speculative attention has been focused on this and other reports of such sightings, and the name Lilith has been given to them collectively, although the corporeal existence of such a Moon has never been proven and it stands to reason that almost certainly there is none and that the reported sightings had other explanations. Nonetheless, in 1918 the eminent astrologer Sepharial took the idea seriously enough to coin the name Dark Moon and publish a speculative ephemeris of its position, based on observations of perturbations to the lunar orbit. This idea was built on later by the astrologer Delphine Jay. Astronomically, Dark Moon Lilith is supposed to have a geocentric period of 119 days and to orbit at three times the distance of the Moon, while its diameter is said to be about one quarter that of the Moon.

Supposed influences of Dark Moon Lilith include objectivity, and a creative instinct that seeks impersonal expression through aesthetic, creative, mental or spiritual outlets. The glyph for Dark Moon Lilith is a zero bisected by a diagonal line from bottom left to top right that extends beyond its limits.
 

Lapis

Well-known member
Kite,

Well no wonder there's so much confusion about Miss Thang! Geeesh, next time post the confusing 3 aspects stuff first OK? Me and my 3 faces of Lilith are outta here! :twisted: :) to do some reading.
 

Kite

Well-known member
Sorry Lapis - I made the mistake of assuming all of us astrologers were working with the same one of the three :oops: :oops:

Kite
 

C1

Well-known member
Hello Lillith seekers!

I was on another forum

(slut that I am :lol:)

and look at this -- the *hot*
topic is Lillith....

http://erosastrology.proboards26.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1130181003&page=2

(....I trust this is proper cosmic protocol 8))

and here's another link to a
beautiful Lillith
painted by a
guy....just scroll down the thread to a Jan 5th posting....with photo....


http://erosastrology.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1135451507&page=2

EVOKING images is powerful as we

open our hearts to consciousness

beyond our ken :?

Fun s y n c h r o n i c i t y happening

here.

I agree so much with Lapis,

and powerful Sita and right-on Kite, of course,

about the power of

re-emerging Lillith

while old Pluto conjuncts GC...

it's beyond ego and
time/space

and all in the heart.

C1
 

Kite

Well-known member
Thanks C1. I'm starting to see the synchronicy with the Lilith thread. I decided to take a peak at my wife's chart for her Black Moon Lilith (BLM) and I was blown away to see her mean position (please pardon the pun) at 16 Scorpio or right on her Descendant, conjunct her Sun at 14 Scorpio. So I my lilith right on my Ascendant and she has hers on her descendant so of course when I run the composite chart BLM sits on our composite Midheaven - this at 28 Sag - within orbit of the Galactic Center.

With Pluto approaching, I can see why Lilith is entering my/our consciousness as we continue to integrate the shrew that was created when we moved into a patriarchal society and that perhaps the purpose of our relationship has always been to find wholeness through acknowledging and working with this Archetype. Even my wife's first name translates to Lily.

I look back at my first post and realize that perhaps the story of Sodom and Gemorrah is the story of the destruction of the matriarchal era with Lot's wife paying the price front and center for disobeying her husband and trying to turn back.

Strange Daze

Kite
 

C1

Well-known member
<<Hi Kite,>>

Wow!...and how about those degrees of 14* to 17* Scorpio (conjunct transiting Jupiter!)

SABIAN SYMBOLS:
SCORPIO__15__THE SPAN OF RETENTION

224__(14°)
WORKERS PUSH A TELEPHONE LINE ACROSS FORBIDDING RANGES The will to association regardless of time and space. Linkage of separate realms. Spiritual living" in spite of" nature.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective penetration of human competence into each pertinent complex of everyday living, and when negative, unnecessary concern over the affairs of others.

225__(15°)
LAUGHING CHILDREN PLAY UPON FIVE MOUNDS OF WHITE SAND The world of the five senses as the playground of God and Soul. Honesty in self-expression. Bondage to sense-patterns.
___*When positive, the degree is a gift for a continual discovery of new and effective facets of selfhood, and when negative, wholly purposeless ineptitude.

SCORPIO__16__THE SPAN OF APPRECIATION

226__(16°)
A GIRL WITH ARISTOCRATIC FEATURES SMILES ENTRANCINGLY Fervent outreaching of self in moments of the purest beauty. Leaping to meet the potentialities of life. Blossoming forth.
___*When positive, the degree is man's ingratiating gift for employing the simple things of life for surmounting any momentary obstacles to his self-fulfillment, and when negative, self-betrayal through a lack of all discrimination.

227__(17°)
WOMAN, FECUNDATED BY HER SPIRIT, IS "GREAT WITH CHILD" Fullness of self-reliance and individual destiny. Cooperation between spiritual and material agencies. Pure self-revelation.
___*When positive, the degree is an illimitable self-potentiality with effective spiritual or ideal as well as practical or everyday orientations, and when negative, a characteristically anarchistic self-sufficiency.

So...those points square transiting Neptune in Aquarius.

Today a gang of luminaries and planets and
centaurs and asteroids have
squeezed in the door with
transiting Neptune: transiting Chiron, Nessu, Eros, and
...sun, merc, moon...

While I don't understand how to interpret composite charts,
shared positions interest me, as you know,
and the ASC/DC and MID cj GC is *so* amazing!

Vis-a-vis Lillith, I would like to share a recent time
in my life: last even we saw the movie "9 Lives"
which was kind of salty if you ask me,
and this morning I discovered that my housemate
the midwife, who did not come along to the movies with us,
had assisted in the warm water birth
of a baby at 3 am this morning!

So...a delicate new birth
that mom and dad and newborn baby
made into a beautiful, natural, powerful, shared experience
(guided by the Cosmic helpers. :wink: )

The movie showed intense moments in people's lives, focusing
on women....and most of the vignettes were traumatic.

The moment in the life of the birth mom and dad and child &
midwife was
quite another thing altogether!

Thanks again for this thread...
i am looking forward to Lillith insights
in our lives.

C1
 

Kite

Well-known member
Transiting Black Moon Lilith is currently at 0Virgo45. This is exactly conjunct my Pluto at my Descendent and square my MC. I've experienced intense Lilith-like exchanges in my life over the last week. Anyone else paying attention to Lilith's transits? Very strange that I've become so conscious of Lilith while this is occuring - well maybe not so strange when you think of it.

Kite
 
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