Will my colleague get the job she applied for?

rafaella · May 31, 2013

Clinton,

I rarely look at moieties/orbs, especially as the aspect is separated...Mostly, I look at moieties when there is out of sign applying aspect. Why? Because for the sake of 'action' what will happen next in the situation querent asked about, we look at the next applying aspect Moon will make, not the past one....So with this in mind if Moon is still carrying the virtues of Saturn in this chart, it doesn't help me much when I'm trying to see what will happen next and how soon as Moon is the driver of the chart....If the applying aspect is delayed, as it is here, then that means the action in real life is delayed. So in that context I see Moon as 'void', as it hasn't started to apply to Mars yet.

I have to also say Frawley doesn't care much for moeties/orbs... I don't quite remember his explanaton for it, but whatever they are they are sensible ones. And yes he does pay attention to outer planets, but not as sign rulers, but when they are conjucnt an angle or a significator... it generally affects the significator in some ways...Deb Houlding uses outer planets, although not in a major way - I was reading an article she has on her skyscript website - it was regarding her trip to Denmark for a conference and how she almost missed the plane.here it is http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61345

Clinton Soule · May 31, 2013

Rafaella says:

I also think we may have chosen wrong significators, which is usually the culprit. I chose her to be 7th house and its ruler, Harold chose 11th, Clinton suggested 6th...Ha!
..........zip..........
To you, is she more a colleague or a friend, when you think of her? 6th I generally don't use for co-worker, because it has implications of someone who is serving you, someone who is a 'servant'... and she is not.

Rafaella, you are right according to Lilly, (Yep I re-read or studied CA last night and Lilly Does Not use co-worker in his text) in CAI, CAII, and CAIII does Not use the co-worker as a 6th house matter as I had thought, misunderstood. :sad:

It's wise to remember, Lilly being the West's best horary artist made a few mistakes as noted in his 'Mater B's House...', in CAII under 4th house matters, that was Lilly in error yet lusting for that property he tried to justify buying. :crying:

Some say that's a Moderne's misinterpretation by calling the 6th that of co-workers yet Lilly puts servants in the 6th as in this debate;

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6892&highlight=

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

dourage · May 31, 2013

rafaella said:
Ok, I think I finally understood this... it seems like it defintely is a 9th house matter, as the friend is basically a student even though 'working' and getting paid....she is working for her degree and so are you right, Dourage? Are you a student as well, both Phd students? If that is the case then I'd use the 11th ruler for her rather than 7th.

I think this is the reason Saturn is in 1st, it restricts the querent, the right information was restricted...Even though you see her as a co-worker, you both are working...but you still have someone who is supervising you and guiding you to gain the degree at the end. For the sake of horary one has to be precise, very technical in who is asking, what is being asked about, which house...Lilly even warns this to his students in his book - be clear which house to use!

Actually, my work is in the communications/marketing department. Like I said... doing something else entirely... we only share an office ;-)

rafaella said:
So if she is 11th ruler Mercury, which is greatly dignified, her 9th is Venus. Venus and Mercury have separated, but Jupiter collects the light of Mercury and then Venus conjucnts Jupiter to conjoin both of their lights... I am not completely sure whether this is true collection, as Mercury has separated from Jup, I have look into this....

As I can recall, only the fastest moving planet can collect light. That means that Mercury could collect light from Venus + Jupiter, but not Jupiter from Venus to Mercury or the other way around.

rafaella said:
The other possibility is using 6th as Clinton suggests, as this is more of an equal situation - 2 people sharing an office, students....And using radical 9th as the University, just as Judge or court is always radical 10th, university is authority and doesn't really 'belong' to querent or the friend... it is educational institute for community...So in this case I'd use Mars as 6th and Moon as 9th ruler and they do connect with strong reception after a delay (Void Moon), showing delay in the phonecall...

Since we are not both doing the same thing (i.e. we're not both PhD students), I think this cannot really be...

rafaella said:
I can see this chart is going to be bothering me for several days to come...haha..

Haha, yes, I have that too. I just do not really get it!!

Thank you so much for your replies though, and thinking about it with me! I really do appreciate it.

Clinton Soule · May 31, 2013

Dourage stated:

Originally Posted by rafaella
The other possibility is using 6th as Clinton suggests, as this is more of an equal situation - 2 people sharing an office, students....And using radical 9th as the University, just as Judge or court is always radical 10th, university is authority and doesn't really 'belong' to querent or the friend... it is educational institute for community...So in this case I'd use Mars as 6th and Moon as 9th ruler and they do connect with strong reception after a delay (Void Moon), showing delay in the phonecall...

Since we are not both doing the same thing (i.e. we're not both PhD students), I think this cannot really be...

I agree, at least utilizing Al Biruni's orbs and moiety table that Lilly advised and used there is No Way Lucifer :mars:

is going to be perfected eventually by Luna, if we used the derived house of the horary's 6th if the 9th were the quesited.

If we use the 11th as friend, as was originally thought, the derived house with Gemini on it does Mercury get pefected by Venus before Mercury goes into the next sign?

Note in this debate directly following my post on this debate, page 3, the great student of horary explains a few things about what may be happening with Mercury and Venus as in this Horary:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7523&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

I think if we put the effort into Lilly's point count this quagmire of a quesited is shown!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1 “Therefore when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, lo! astrologers [Io! kings, or wise men,] came from the east to Jerusalem,” (Wycliffe New Testament)

rafaella · May 31, 2013

Hi all,

Am on my mobile phone so can't look into those links right now, Clinton, but thanks for looking into Lilly regarding 6th house... Yes co-worker is always 7th, modern astrologers have moved it to 6th for some reason, just as jobs/work are always 10th not really 6th house...

Dourage, I think you are thinking of translation of light not collection. For collection of light the heaviest planet of the three, like in this example Jupiter collects the light of both mercury and Venus and brings them back together...

Frawley suggests to use radical 9th for university questions, not turning chart, e.g if one was wondering will my aunt get into Uni, we chose the appropriate house fir aunt and then use 9th as the quesited.. So in this matter radical 9th could be used as well..

dourage · Jun 6, 2013

Hi Rafaella,

I think you're right, I was confusing those. So anyway, I talked to her about it. No delays or weird things whatsoever (at least so far), she totally got the job and also received official news already.

Thank you all so much for your help!

Clinton Soule · Jun 6, 2013

Harold stated:

Most modern authors on horary astrology writing more than, say, fifteen years ago would have agreed with your definition of VOC. However, the increasing availability of traditional (pre 1700) texts on horary astrology have shown that traditionally, the Moon was considered VOC if it had fully separated from any previous aspects, and was not applying to any other planet while in that sign.

It was that phrase, "....while in that sign." that confused modern astrologers. What it actually means is that it is only the aspects that the Moon makes while it is in that sign that are considered in the horary judgement. It does not mean that the Moon must perfect an aspect while in that sign, which is how many modern astrologers interpret it. (An aspect is 'perfected' when it is exact.)

A word about aspects.

Here, the Moon is separating from an aspect, and applying to an aspect, if it within the "moiety of the orbs" of the Moon and the other planet. The traditional orb of the Moon is 12 degrees, the orb of Mars is 7 degrees and the orb of Saturn is 9 degrees. To find the "moiety of the orbs", add the orbs of the Moon and the other planet and divide by two. So here, the moiety of the orbs is 10.5 degrees for an aspect between the Moon and Saturn, and if the Moon has separated from its sextile to Saturn by more than 10.5 degrees, it is no longer in aspect. Too, the Moon is not 'applying' to its trine to Mars unless it is within 9.5 degrees of perfecting the aspect. If the Moon has separated from one planet and is not yet applying to any other planet, it is Void of Course.

Traditional authors would write the aspects the Moon made on their square charts, and it is from a study of these charts that one gains a clear understanding of what traditional authors meant by VOC.

Yes, and if one wishes to truly understand about this confusion of VOC one might read this debate with eyes open:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7399

Because many even on skyscript.co.uk forums who are very knowledgeable had been caught in Posiedon's :neptune:

rays of confusion and possibly self deception and misunderstood what VOC actually was by definition.

When I misunderstand something I want to free myself from that trap by re-evaluating the quagmire. :rightful:

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Ecclesiastes 3:1-4 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" (King James Version)

Clinton Soule · Jun 6, 2013

Rafaella stated:

I rarely look at moieties/orbs, especially as the aspect is separated...Mostly, I look at moieties when there is out of sign applying aspect. Why? Because for the sake of 'action' what will happen next in the situation querent asked about, we look at the next applying aspect Moon will make, not the past one....So with this in mind if Moon is still carrying the virtues of Saturn in this chart, it doesn't help me much when ...
........snip..........
I have to also say Frawley doesn't care much for moeties/orbs... I don't quite remember his explanaton for it, but whatever they are they are sensible ones. And yes he does pay attention to outer planets, but not as sign rulers, but when they are conjucnt an angle or a significator... it generally affects the significator in some ways.

Well this explains a lot of eye opening revelations of why Anthony Louis, then a Moderne, had stated that planets can perfect if way out of orb if the planet being applied to does Not change signs, like Venus at 2 degrees aplying to Saturn at 28 degrees, Ultra-Trads will cringe reading this, in his first book Horary Astrology: the History and practice of Astro-Divination.

Now I'm Not, did I say Not giving high credibility to those Modernes, it was just that it was my first horary book that I re-read five times or more. And when you read it after studying Lilly you understand how much Louis misunderstood then and why he is studying more Traditional sources now! :biggrin:

Raffaella says:

I have to also say Frawley doesn't care much for moeties/orbs... I don't quite remember his explanaton for it, but whatever they are they are sensible ones. And yes he does pay attention to outer planets, but not as sign rulers, but when they are conjucnt an angle or a significator...

The fact that if what you say is certain, that Frawley is Not that precise or concerned with Moieties may be another reason many Ultra-Trads scoff at his ideas, almost putting him with the Modernes! :crying:

Dourage, I was looking for the birth data of this horary where I could calculate it and post as like Rafaella, this horary truly intrigues me of why we have so many problems with the analysis. Lilly states '...be accurate and credible for the art and your own reputation...' :sideways:

If one were to find a town at the near lattitude, and 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, and even 90 degrees different in longitude, one can calculate the horoscope and still have their location clandestine or hidden and the cusps and angles come out the same numeric value.

For I wanted to see the exact speeds of the planets in relation to this horary and for purposes of seeing when or if planets perfect. And for the Trads Regiomontanus is always encouraged!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwF5AvP7zQ

Psalm 19:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

Will my colleague get the job she applied for?

rafaella

Well-known member

Clinton Soule

Banned

dourage

Well-known member

Clinton Soule

Banned

rafaella

Well-known member

dourage

Well-known member

Clinton Soule

Banned

Clinton Soule

Banned