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  #451  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:57 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
If Neptune connects you to spirit what role Pluto plays in spirituality? If anything Neptune should be associated with unconscious as water is unconscious as a sea holds many treasures and secrets not seen from above. This unconscious may give rise to addictions.



Life evolved from water and there is no life without water on the planet. Then why wasn’t Neptune given a higher role than Sun or Jupiter in modern astrology, why just limit to drugs? Is it not modern astrology’s convenient position to assign attributes to planets without a proper rationale or logic?
Neptune rules the sidereal Age of Pisces in Modern sidereal.
Also, it's an important way of tracking generational phases. I consider it my tropical chart-ruler. Its influence is more subtle than the Sun's or Jupiter's, but strong nonetheless.

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  #452  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:04 AM
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To get back on topic , the ancient Greeks had the Three Fates. The first was Clotho, "the spinner", who wove the life. The other two measured its length and ended it. So, the question would be, was this now relatively unknown goddess Clotho, the one who determined the actual events of one's life, or just the quality of one's character (as in "showing what you're made of")? Then, that quality would determine how you use your free-will to deal with life's challenges. And, no one should be blamed for having less than admirable character, or credited for accomplishments made possible by being of high character. That was Clotho's doing.
This fits my Modernistic interpretation of what fate is about. Would you consider it a Traditionalistic description?
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  #453  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:08 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Neptune rules the sidereal Age of Pisces in Modern sidereal.
Also, it's an important way of tracking generational phases. I consider it my tropical chart-ruler. Its influence is more subtle than the Sun's or Jupiter's, but strong nonetheless.
That is because modern astrology made Neptune as the ruler of Pisces it has nothing to do with the age. Chart rulers based on the rising signs are so misleading, they do not have so much power as many people think the chart rulers have on other planets in their chart.

If you only look at just the dignities of all the planets in your chart according to traditional astrology you will get your answers by sticking to just seven planets.
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
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  #454  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:12 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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This fits my Modernistic interpretation of what fate is about. Would you consider it a Traditionalistic description?
May be it does not matter how many levels of fate are there, and giving them names. What matters is fate owns key events in your life and free will for insignifcant things.
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
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  #455  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:27 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
That is because modern astrology made Neptune as the ruler of Pisces it has nothing to do with the age. Chart rulers based on the rising signs are so misleading, they do not have so much power as many people think the chart rulers have on other planets in their chart.

If you only look at just the dignities of all the planets in your chart according to traditional astrology you will get your answers by sticking to just seven planets.
Here's a correlation: Age of Pisces ruled by "The Fisher of Men", to go along with the Modernistic, Neptunian rulership. Neptune holds the fisherman's Trident as a symbol of authority, and relates to spiritual connectivity in Modernistic astrology.

Last edited by david starling; 08-02-2019 at 05:48 AM.
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  #456  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:38 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Jesus as part of the Trinity (numerology, , 12th Modernistic Sign, 12>1+2=3), controlled the ocean; and, there's the alcohol--water into wine.
Makes sense for a Water-sign ruler to be god of the Sea. Jupiter was Sky-god, and held the Trident of lightning.

Last edited by david starling; 08-02-2019 at 06:19 AM.
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  #457  
Unread 08-02-2019, 05:45 AM
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Jupiter relates to the Father, not the Son. The early Church, which was still in competition with the Roman pantheon, declared the Roman god Jupiter to be a false representation of the true Father. Saturn was renamed Satan, the Adversary.
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  #458  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:01 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

If you're willing to ignore the ancient, major archetypes, Neptune and Pluto, in interests of the tight, neat symmetry of the 7/12 system, fine. But it's wrong to pretend they were "made up" by Modernistic astrologers from some half-baked combinations of the 7-only, Traditionalistic rulers.
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  #459  
Unread 08-02-2019, 06:11 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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May be it does not matter how many levels of fate are there, and giving them names. What matters is fate owns key events in your life and free will for insignifcant things.
Is this a Traditionalistic view of fate versus free-will, as espoused by Vettius Valens? Because his writings are what matter in "Traditional" astrology , not your own opinion. I really am asking, not assuming otherwise.
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  #460  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
We are all struggling to understand the reason for our existence and why in one way not the other, how much role fate plays in our lives because we tend to mix different sytems, different theories, different fields etc., I say stick to one system and work it out till you are satisfied completely, if you don't get answers and then move to another system.

I personally have a problem with the arrogance of scientific reasoning and scientific minded people. Science as we know is an offshoot of the medieval renaissance, scientists almost all forgot their roots while some don't even know how science came into existence how science was practised along with natural, occult and religion and make fun of the people who have such views as if these people are not evolved and plain stupid.

That is why I stick to old wisdom, old traditions, and occult. I can say with conviction if you mix systems you will end up nowhere.


edit: if any of you wondering why this comment, it may help you to know what science is doing in the areas you are interested but don't consider it as an authority till you can validate it yourself. These scientists wanted to demote Pluto from a planet because of stupid reasons, that is how stupid scientists are, dogmatic and ego driven.
[deleted personal attack - Moderator]

I have a.friend who is a scientist and the most spiritual person I know. Most of his colleagues are spiritual. Your statements are based on emotional response and have zero logic. The only thing you are doing is defending everything traditional, and you seem to dislike everything modern. That's fine , but don't make statements like "all scientists are stupid " . There are stupid doctors, stupid athletes , stupid politicians and stupid astrologers.

And the last 3 pages of this thread is again which one is better, traditional vs modern.

That was not even the idea of the topic. We all know both method words, the point of the topic was to examine which holds fate and free will and how.

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-03-2019 at 01:41 PM.
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  #461  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:24 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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[deleted personal attack - Moderator]

I have a.friend who is a scientist and the most spiritual person I know. Most of his colleagues are spiritual. Your statements are based on emotional response and have zero logic. The only thing you are doing is defending everything traditional, and you seem to dislike everything modern. That's fine , but don't make statements like "all scientists are stupid " . There are stupid doctors, stupid athletes , stupid politicians and stupid astrologers.

And the last 3 pages of this thread is again which one is better, traditional vs modern.

That was not even the idea of the topic. We all know both method words, the point of the topic was to examine which holds fate and free will and how.
I specify "Materialistic modern science" to identify scientists who are entirely focused on the material world. That doesn't make them "stupid" in their chosen field though.

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-03-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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  #462  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:46 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Exactly
Is that according to Vettius Valens?
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  #463  
Unread 08-02-2019, 08:48 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Is that according to Vettius Valens?
read Vettius Valens THE ANTHOLOGY and discover
FREE GRATIS and for nothing at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #464  
Unread 08-02-2019, 09:06 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
read Vettius Valens THE ANTHOLOGY and discover
FREE GRATIS and for nothing at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
so, you don't like sharing that you have not read Vettius Valens
THE ANTHOLOGY
FREE online at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
I have read some, but not all, of what Valens had written, which survived the centuries. But, nothing about his attitude towards fate versus free-will. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of his surving, translated works knows the answer, and is willing to share the information. I would expect someone identifying as a "Traditional" astrology would have read his entire body of work.
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  #465  
Unread 08-02-2019, 11:35 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Pluto is an Modernistic astrological Planet, comparable to Neptune, in that NEITHER can be seen with the naked eye.
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  #466  
Unread 08-02-2019, 12:12 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Poor Traditionalistic astrologers, claiming Materialistic scientific proof that doesn't exist.
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  #467  
Unread 08-02-2019, 02:54 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

I have a.friend who is a scientist and the most spiritual person I know. Most of his colleagues are spiritual. Your statements are based on emotional response and have zero logic. The only thing you are doing is defending everything traditional, and you seem to dislike everything modern. That's fine , but don't make statements like "all scientists are stupid " . There are stupid doctors, stupid athletes , stupid politicians and stupid astrologers.

And the last 3 pages of this thread is again which one is better, traditional vs modern.

That was not even the idea of the topic. We all know both method words, the point of the topic was to examine which holds fate and free will and how.

It is the reality as much as the scientific community making mockery of anything related to spiritual and occult except meditation. May be you never asked your scientist friend how scientific community works, how peer approval is the key thing, they can't suggest anything wacky for the fear of being ridiculed. Scientific journals do not publish anything they can't explain. If you pride yourself on being logical and scientific minded, you should not bother with something like astrology any topic in occult.

And I have given enough explanation on the topic and this thread gets derailed quite often with distracting posts, so I'm not interested in bringing back to topic. You bring your new age stuff and barrage it out of context. I'm not here to quote each and every sentence every user posts and show why it is not relevant to the topic.

If you have problem with it you do not have to participate in the discussion.
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-03-2019 at 01:47 PM.
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  #468  
Unread 08-02-2019, 03:18 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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You are making it too complex .

To me fate is providence

which ensures our lives play out exactly as planned by providence.
Exactly


"Providence" has provided an online astrological forum
for members only
to type various opinions
and read the various opinions of others

clearly

those of us availing ourselves of the opportunity
of interacting with members
whom we otherwise would not encounter
- for example specific members from Canada, California, Indonesia, UK, Argentina
Russia, China et al

would not otherwise have an opportunity to dialogue

i.e.

PROVIDENCE has provided the means
and
members are free to exercise free will to participate
DEPENDENT ON KEEPING TO THE RULES OF THE FORUM

also

IF our forum were to disappear off the internet
the kind of dialogue currently occuring would immediately cease
clearly illustrating the limitations of our individual "free will"
to that which has been PROVIDED
IF members keep the necessary conditions


also
participation is dependent on IF members know of the existence of this forum
and
IF members own a device that accesses the internet
and

IF the internet exists

clearly
"free will" to participate on any online forum
is exercised only inter-dependent with a multiplicity of factors
determined by PROVIDENCE
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 08-02-2019 at 03:22 PM.
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  #469  
Unread 08-02-2019, 03:34 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
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  #470  
Unread 08-02-2019, 03:37 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Well, the OP has declared that the stated topic of this thread is no longer in effect. So, the thread is dead.
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  #471  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:20 PM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

ds is the strongest person alive!
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  #472  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:24 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Dr. Erik Verlinde says, “For me gravity doesn’t exist.”
In a recent paper he expounded on his theory.
Erik Verlinde, 48, a respected string theorist and professor of physics at the University of Amsterdam,
contends that gravity is indeed an illusion
and has caused a continuing ruckus among physicists,
or at least among those who profess to understand it

Scientific community never accepts anything that shakes the foundations of modern science. Very few scientists are actually humble and say we have been doing it all wrong but most of them have too much ego to accept anything that destroys their reputation and guzzle tax payers' money.

Have you read any book by Immanuel Velikovsky?
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
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  #473  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post


Scientific community never accepts anything that shakes the foundations of modern science. Very few scientists are actually humble and say we have been doing it all wrong but most of them have too much ego to accept anything that destroys their reputation and guzzle tax payers' money.

Have you read any book by Immanuel Velikovsky?
I have read Immanuel Velikovsky
and for those who dislike reading
just one of the many Velikovsky videos on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHRjh1npkY
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #474  
Unread 08-02-2019, 04:38 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I have read Immanuel Velikovsky
and for those who dislike reading
just one of the many Velikovsky videos on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHRjh1npkY
I came across a book called Saturn Myth by David N Talbott who was influenced by Velikovsky when I was doing research on Saturn. I think he was on to something for the reason Saturn is mentioned as the final thing to be reached in several forms of magick repeatedly.

I'm yet to get my hands on the physical copies of those books
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Atum replied ‘I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.’
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  #475  
Unread 08-03-2019, 06:14 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Would ancient wisdom obviate against modern medicine?
If you mean allopathic western, YES.
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