The ASTROLOGY of Donald Trump

david starling said:

That gets Leo rising by itself off the hook, since you're neither pompous nor arrogant. Where's THAT coming from in Trump's Chart?

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That combo of pompous and to add, loud-mouthed and foul-mouthed has mainly to do with Mars on the Asc.

aquarius7000 said:

That combo of pompous and to add, loud-mouthed and foul-mouthed has mainly to do with Mars on the Asc.

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I have Mars on the Ascendant, in Pisces. I avoid swearing, and guys I work with tone it down, knowing it makes me uncomfortable. Also, I have trouble receiving compliments, and avoid being recognized for achievements. So, is Trump's braggadocio related to Mars in LEO on the Asc? He's covering up his feelings of inadequacy by acting overconfident, that much seems clear. An abused child, from what I've read about his father.

david starling said:

I have Mars on the Ascendant, in Pisces. I avoid swearing, and guys I work with tone it down, knowing it makes me uncomfortable. Also, I have trouble receiving compliments, and avoid being recognized for achievements. So, is Trump's braggadocio related to Mars in LEO on the Asc? He's covering up his feelings of inadequacy by acting overconfident, that much seems clear. An abused child, from what I've read about his father.

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Yes, of course, Mars (hot and dry) in a fire sign is going to be completely different from Mars in a water sign, as mentioned in my opening post The water will tone it down in terms of extroverting its energies - one of the reasons why Mars in Scorpio behaves rather differently from Mars in Aries.

As to Trump's braggadocio - ego issues, as mentioned in a previous post of mine, Trump has Venus - Saturn, so there are issues with self-worth and self-love, which he constantly seeks form his environment. He wants people to tell him continually how great he is.

david starling said:

Muchacho, since there is some competition going on here between which describes Trump best, I'll specify it as Tropical versus Vedic. I'm choosing Vedic rather than Western Sidereal because of my own situation: In Tropical, I have Sun at 28 degrees Pisces, which moves it to early Pisces in all of the standard Ayanamsas. But, my Moon in mid-Aquarius would move into to Capricorn in Western Sidereal, which is way off the mark--I have all the traits of an Aquarian Moon, and almost none of Capricorn. But, in Vedic, for a reason you probably know about, I was told the Moon would remain in Aquarius. Apparently the Moon is a special case, compared to the Sun and planets.
That having been said, I was noticing an Alchemical saying from the Emerald Tablet of Alchemy: "As Above, So Below, AND, As Below, so Above." Meaning, it works both ways--the Heavens influence us, and we influence the Heavens. I think it may be a situation where Vedic is dealing with the former, and Tropical with the latter. That would mean they compliment, rather than conflict with each other.

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Yes, it goes both ways because there is no actual separation between inner and outer, above and below or physical and non-physical. However, that doesn't work if you see yourself as mostly a physical being only. It only works from the perspective of your entire being. And I think that's the actual distinction between tropical and vedic.

And who is really practicing pure tropical astrology anyway? No one. But I think we better discuss this in the other thread. I'm currently reading "Lost Star" by Walter Cruttenden and he has some really interesting points on this topic. I'll join you guys some time later in the other thread.

aquarius7000 said:

That combo of pompous and to add, loud-mouthed and foul-mouthed has mainly to do with Mars on the Asc.

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That's the negative end of the Mars-in-fiery-sign-close-to-ASC stick, when such people are out of alignment. The positive end of that stick, when such people are in alignment, would be enthusiastic, passionate and charismatic talk. And I think we've seen enough examples of both versions. There's always a high road and a low road. And which road one prefers to travel can be a moment to moment thing.

muchacho said:

That's the negative end of the Mars-in-fiery-sign-close-to-ASC stick, when such people are out of alignment. The positive end of that stick, when such people are in alignment, would be enthusiastic, passionate and charismatic talk. And I think we've seen enough examples of both versions. There's always a high road and a low road. And which road one prefers to travel can be a moment to moment thing.

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Of course, there are always two sides to everything, even to Mars. However, I don't associate Charisma with Mars even when Mars is being good.
Mars on the positive is being energetic, being fearless, have the gusto to move ahead with something, being swift, having courage, and the like.

muchacho said:

Yes, it goes both ways because there is no actual separation between inner and outer, above and below or physical and non-physical. However, that doesn't work if you see yourself as mostly a physical being only. It only works from the perspective of your entire being. And I think that's the actual distinction between tropical and vedic.

And who is really practicing pure tropical astrology anyway? No one. But I think we better discuss this in the other thread. I'm currently reading "Lost Star" by Walter Cruttenden and he has some really interesting points on this topic. I'll join you guys some time later in the other thread.

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What's "pure" Tropical? As far as I know, Tropical simply means using the closest Star's position relative to Earth's axial tilt to locate the 12 Sign-boundaries, and measuring the Signs in the plane of that Earth/Star orbital path. That's the essential meaning of "Tropical Astrology". The close Star, and the Moon and Planets, are the "Above", and the Earth is the "Below" in both Tropical and Vedic. Many Tropicalists do use the distant stars, as well as the close one, but it's not a Tropical requirement.
Not trying to be argumentative, just looking for Vedic interpretation of Trump's Chart without an implied contempt for the Tropical interpretation--different angles of view of the same person's Chart.

david starling said:

What's "pure" Tropical? As far as I know, Tropical simply means using the closest Star's position relative to Earth's axial tilt to locate the 12 Sign-boundaries, and measuring the Signs in the plane of that Earth/Star orbital path. That's the essential meaning of "Tropical Astrology". The close Star, and the Moon and Planets, are the "Above", and the Earth is the "Below" in both Tropical and Vedic. Many Tropicalists do use the distant stars, as well as the close one, but it's not a Tropical requirement.
Not trying to be argumentative, just looking for Vedic interpretation of Trump's Chart without an implied contempt for the Tropical interpretation--different angles of view of the same person's Chart.

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If you are a tropicalist and work with fixed stars, then this is already a hybrid approach.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tropical. I haven't really come to a final conclusion yet. Even though seeing vedic as far superior in terms of natal astrology, I also see tropical working perfectly fine in horary. And I'm currently looking into Prashna (the vedic version of horary). So the jury is still out on this one. What I can say though is that mixing both systems may not be such a good idea, e.g. tropical with whole sign houses or sidereal with western house systems or tropical vedic astrology or sidereal western astrology.

If you want to have a vedic interpetation of DJT's chart then you have to keep in mind that vedic always works with several charts simultaneously, usually with at least 3 charts (the birth chart, the Moon chart, the Navamsa) as a bare minimum, but mostly up to 5 or more charts. So you can't just compare the tropical birth chart with the vedic birth chart (rasi).

Also, the vedic approach usually has the focus on the Moon and divisional charts, not so much the Sun and the birth chart. The Moon and divisional charts are more related to the astral realm (and beyond), while the Sun and the birth chart are more related to the physical realm. So the vedic description usually comes a lot closer in describing your entire (multidimensional) being than the tropical description. I guess that's why most who start with western astrology sooner or later begin looking into vedic astrology.

muchacho said:

If you are a tropicalist and work with fixed stars, then this is already a hybrid approach.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-tropical. I haven't really come to a final conclusion yet. Even though seeing vedic as far superior in terms of natal astrology, I also see tropical working perfectly fine in horary. And I'm currently looking into Prashna (the vedic version of horary). So the jury is still out on this one. What I can say though is that mixing both systems may not be such a good idea, e.g. tropical with whole sign houses or sidereal with western house systems or tropical vedic astrology or sidereal western astrology.

If you want to have a vedic interpetation of DJT's chart then you have to keep in mind that vedic always works with several charts simultaneously, usually with at least 3 charts (the birth chart, the Moon chart, the Navamsa) as a bare minimum, but mostly up to 5 or more charts. So you can't just compare the tropical birth chart with the vedic birth chart (rasi).

Also, the vedic approach usually has the focus on the Moon and divisional charts, not so much the Sun and the birth chart. The Moon and divisional charts are more related to the astral realm (and beyond), while the Sun and the birth chart are more related to the physical realm. So the vedic description usually comes a lot closer in describing your entire (multidimensional) being than the tropical description. I guess that's why most who start with western astrology sooner or later begin looking into vedic astrology.

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So, Vedic is complicated.
One thing I've been trying to explain is that, in Tropical coordinates, the distant stars are NOT "fixed". This really seems to bother some Siderealists. The seasonal points are the fixed points, which is why Tropical has no Ayanamsa or Precession of the Equinoxes and Soltisces. Instead, Tropical has Progression of the distant stars. In Tropical coordinates, those stars move with Direct-motion one degree about every 72 years. It's just a simple matter of what's being held in place, and what's moving relative to that. Why is that difficult to comprehend?

david starling said:

So, Vedic is complicated.
One thing I've been trying to explain is that, in Tropical coordinates, the distant stars are NOT "fixed". This really seems to bother some Siderealists. The seasonal points are the fixed points, which is why Tropical has no Ayanamsa or Precession of the Equinoxes and Soltisces. Instead, Tropical has Progression of the distant stars. In Tropical coordinates, those stars move with Direct-motion one degree about every 72 years. It's just a simple matter of what's being held in place, and what's moving relative to that. Why is that difficult to comprehend?

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Right, and so both siderealists and tropicalists have to constantly make adjustments. And thanks to that they can both agree that DJT's ASC falls right on Regulus.

muchacho said:

Right, and so both siderealists and tropicalists have to constantly make adjustments. And thanks to that they can both agree that DJT's ASC falls right on Regulus.

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Conjunct Mars in Leo as well. The Saturn/Venus Conjunction gets a little dicey though, depending on the Ayanamsa. Does Vedic still consider it a Conjunction if the Planets are in close orb, but in different Signs?

david starling said:

Conjunct Mars in Leo as well.

The Saturn/Venus Conjunction gets a little dicey though, depending on the Ayanamsa. Does Vedic still consider it a Conjunction if the Planets are in close orb, but in different Signs?

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Correct.

That's a good question. In vedic you don't really think in terms of orbs, you rather think in terms of houses (signs). Just look at the typical vedic chart and the typical western chart. In the western chart you usually find the exact degrees next to the glyph of a planet, you won't find that in the typical vedic chart.

Exact degrees are important for calculating strength, for example, there is this phenomenon called 'planetary war' which is basically a close conjunction (1 degree) of two or more planets. And there's also combustion, of course. But beyond calculating strength, it's not so much of importance.

Even when it comes to transits you would be rather concerned with when a planet enters the sign where a specific planets is located than the exact degree where that planet is located. Although that exact degree can be seen as some kind of culmination point. Same for aspects. In vedic it's all about aspects by sign, not by degree (except when calculating strength, strength by aspect is a factor as well in terms of overall planetary strength).

So taking DJT's chart as an example again, instead of saying "Venus is conjunct Saturn in Cancer in the 11th house", you would rather say that "Venus is with Saturn in the 12th house/Cancer".

Using Raman, Venus is with Saturn in H12/Cancer. But, with Lahiri, it is not. I think/feel Raman is right on this one. I notice there are some fierce proponents of Lahiri, who claim that if Lahiri doesn't work, it's because of an error in birthtime. Hard to argue with that "logic".

Are there any Vedic Astrologers who include the outer Planets, or does that completely disrupt an essential pattern?

I'm asking, because with Raman, that would move Pluto into H12/Cancer with Venus and Saturn.
I have [PLUTO*] in Cancer as a "sense of Purpose" placement, where the purpose would involve dismantling the old cultural structures. A sort of "wrecking-ball" approach to "business as usual".

*Made a bad mistake by inadvertently writing "Venus" instead of "Pluto" as a Sense of Purpose placement. I actually have Venus in Cancer as a Facilitating placement, enabling the emotional energy flow. Apologies.

david starling said:

Using Raman, Venus is with Saturn in H12/Cancer. But, with Lahiri, it is not. I think/feel Raman is right on this one. I notice there are some fierce proponents of Lahiri, who claim that if Lahiri doesn't work, it's because of an error in birthtime. Hard to argue with that "logic".

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They've got a point, of course. However, if they have to adjust birth time like 30% of the time then the problem may be elsewhere. I noticed that in one of Marc Boney's books. He's an excellent astrologer and a talented teacher. In one of his books he had to adjust the birth time of several sample charts in order to make them fit the life path of those individuals, including the birth time of Queen Elizabeth II! And that got me thinking. Boney was a devoted student of K.N. Rao who was a fierce proponent of the official Lahiri Ayanamsa. K.N. Rao claimed he did some Ayanamsa study with hundreds (or thousands?) of charts that proved Lahiri correct. I've never seen that study and I've never heard of anyone having seen that study either. Same goes for Ernst Wilhelm and his tropical vedic astrology. No one has seen his research either. And so I guess the thought never occurred to Boney that there might be something wrong with the Ayanamsa he's been using. The truth is, it's an herculean task to do such comparative Ayanamsa research I've tried it once and I posted some preliminary results on the forum.

Nevertheless, I highly recommend the books of K.N.Rao, Marc Boney and Ernst Wilhelm to students of vedic astrology. They are all excellent astrologers and also talented teachers. I just happen to disagree with them on the Ayanamsa issue.

david starling said:

Are there any Vedic Astrologers who include the outer Planets, or does that completely disrupt an essential pattern?

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Yes, there are some who use them in the same way fixed stars are used in traditional western astrology. There are too many unknowns regarding the outers. In order to treat them like the classical planets, we would have to know things like their exact point of exaltation, the sign(s) they naturally rule, the house of their joy, the planets they are friends with, the length of their planetary period, the hour and day and month they rule etc. - it's a long list! And we need the complete list in order to make it work. And we don't have that list so far. So the only 'reasonable' way of working with them is treating them like fixed stars.

david starling said:

I'm asking, because with Raman, that would move Pluto into H12/Cancer with Venus and Saturn.
I have Venus in Cancer as a "sense of Purpose" placement, where the purpose would involve dismantling the old cultural structures. A sort of "wrecking-ball" approach to "business as usual".

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I'll get back to this later, David. I'll post the vedic chart of DJT and then I can walk you thru the process of delineating it vedic style and you can do some actual comparison to the western approach. This could be fun and very educational.

My two cents on Donald Trumps chart:

Gemini Sun: Really smart, has a way with words. HE really does have a way with words. Really great when talking to people and lying. Also has a trickster kind of personality. He probably ran for president for the hell of it.

Mercury in Cancer: Talks with his heart. Squared by Neptune in Libra. Makes him a good story teller and a good liar as well.

Leo Asc conjunct regulus: don't think I need to explain this

Mars on ascendant gives the orangey and aggressive look to him

Leo ascendants are really great business people I think. They can sell literally anything. especially themselves.

Jupiter in Libra in 2nd house: inflated wealth. Chiron in 2nd house probably explains the 4 bankruptcies and then he helps others when he talks about making money.

Moon in Sag: Lucky personality. Driven to win. Optimistic and takes risks.
I know a lot of famous people with moon in sag. or at least the famous people that catch my attention are sag moons.

Jupiter trine Sun: inflated ego, able to take risks

Sun conjunct NN and Uranus: I think this is what really makes him seem like a narcissist. Gotta achieve that sun in the 10th house. Uranus probably makes him really intuitive and he just does whatever he feels is right at the moment. And the Uranus gives him the revolutionizing shock that we all see. Especially when he entered politics.

Mc in Taurus: rich has a lot of money, materialistic, etc.. Trump is a real estate kind of guy right?? Taurus seems to be a sign of real estate.

Venus conjunct Saturn: desperate need for love or attention. venus represents money too, so this could explain his mastery and struggle with money.

Excellent analogy, comparing the Tropical use of individual distant stars like Regulus and Algol, to the Sidereal use of the outer 3 Modern Tropical Planets.

AppLeo said:

My two cents on Donald Trumps chart:

Gemini Sun: Really smart, has a way with words. HE really does have a way with words. Really great when talking to people and lying. Also has a trickster kind of personality. He probably ran for president for the hell of it.

Mercury in Cancer: Talks with his heart. Squared by Neptune in Libra. Makes him a good story teller and a good liar as well.

Leo Asc conjunct regulus: don't think I need to explain this

Mars on ascendant gives the orangey and aggressive look to him

Leo ascendants are really great business people I think. They can sell literally anything. especially themselves.

Jupiter in Libra in 2nd house: inflated wealth. Chiron in 2nd house probably explains the 4 bankruptcies and then he helps others when he talks about making money.

Moon in Sag: Lucky personality. Driven to win. Optimistic and takes risks.
I know a lot of famous people with moon in sag. or at least the famous people that catch my attention are sag moons.

Jupiter trine Sun: inflated ego, able to take risks

Sun conjunct NN and Uranus: I think this is what really makes him seem like a narcissist. Gotta achieve that sun in the 10th house. Uranus probably makes him really intuitive and he just does whatever he feels is right at the moment. And the Uranus gives him the revolutionizing shock that we all see. Especially when he entered politics.

Mc in Taurus: rich has a lot of money, materialistic, etc.. Trump is a real estate kind of guy right?? Taurus seems to be a sign of real estate.

Venus conjunct Saturn: desperate need for love or attention. venus represents money too, so this could explain his mastery and struggle with money.

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Not bad, and nicely and clearly stated!
Just to add, I think he loves to DELIBERATELY create dissension, and hates it when things are running smoothly and people are getting along saturn:/) He's SEEN as a real estate mogul taurus:M.C.), but his real center is as a widely watched talk-reality show host sun://in).

david starling said:

Not bad, and nicely and clearly stated!
Just to add, I think he loves to DELIBERATELY create dissension, and hates it when things are running smoothly and people are getting along saturn:/) He's SEEN as a real estate mogul taurus:M.C.), but his real center is as a widely watched talk-reality show host sun://in).

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Sun-Uranus people are always creating chaos.