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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 02-25-2012, 06:16 PM
CaprLibraSquared CaprLibraSquared is offline
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Whole signs vs. Placidus

Not sure this is the right forum, but thought I would start here. FIRST, I know the most popular answer to my question is what feels right to you. HOWEVER, I am curious to hear other's thoughts on the matter. My chart in Placidus is VERY different from my Whole Signs. My stellium in the 8th house moves to the 9th. I've kinda hung my hat on being a Plutonian like person - now maybe not? My Libra sun moves from the 9th to the 10th. I am Capricorn rising. I have played around some and a 9th house Libra Sun does feel right. However, I have spent my life struggling with work and where do I fit so it makes me wonder is the 10th house a fit as the Sun often is the area of work/struggle. I think 9th house is more me than 10th. Mostly because if I could find a way to make a living just traveling and seeing the world - that would be awesome! It seems if I was truly a 10th house sun I would be focused on making my mark in the world and embrace my current administrator role more than I do.

Thoughts and discussion most appreciated!

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Unread 02-25-2012, 07:28 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaprLibraSquared View Post
Not sure this is the right forum, but thought I would start here. FIRST, I know the most popular answer to my question is what feels right to you. HOWEVER, I am curious to hear other's thoughts on the matter. My chart in Placidus is VERY different from my Whole Signs. My stellium in the 8th house moves to the 9th. I've kinda hung my hat on being a Plutonian like person - now maybe not? My Libra sun moves from the 9th to the 10th. I am Capricorn rising. I have played around some and a 9th house Libra Sun does feel right. However, I have spent my life struggling with work and where do I fit so it makes me wonder is the 10th house a fit as the Sun often is the area of work/struggle. I think 9th house is more me than 10th. Mostly because if I could find a way to make a living just traveling and seeing the world - that would be awesome! It seems if I was truly a 10th house sun I would be focused on making my mark in the world and embrace my current administrator role more than I do.

Thoughts and discussion most appreciated!
What are the rulers of your 9th and 10th, where are they in relation to their houses, and what condition are they in? What other planets are present in those houses?

If you're open to trying things out, also try sidereal zodiac rather than tropical, assuming you're casting tropical charts...
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Unread 02-25-2012, 07:44 PM
CaprLibraSquared CaprLibraSquared is offline
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Still learning astrology so not following you entirely. My 10th house ruler in Placidus is Pluto and the 9th is Venus. In Whole Sign 10th is Venus and 9th is Mercury
In Plac the 10th house contains Mercury and Neptune in whole this shifts to the 11th so the ruler of 11th becomes Pluto. In addition Pluto, Venus, & Uranus all move from the 8th to the 9th in the whole sign - ruler Mercury. Signs don't change - just the houses.

It really is a completely different chart in Whole sign. Every planet shifts houses. Not one keeps the same position.

So, not sure that answers your question, but that is what I know. :-)
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Unread 02-25-2012, 09:25 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

CaprLibraSquared, fwiw there is a recent discussion "Whole Signs -vs- Placidus - When should each be used and why?" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46681

as well as "Whole sign or Placidus"
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=39669

and also "whole sign houses and the MC"
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42613
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Unread 02-28-2012, 03:24 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaprLibraSquared View Post
Not sure this is the right forum, but thought I would start here. FIRST, I know the most popular answer to my question is what feels right to you. HOWEVER, I am curious to hear other's thoughts on the matter. My chart in Placidus is VERY different from my Whole Signs. My stellium in the 8th house moves to the 9th. I've kinda hung my hat on being a Plutonian like person - now maybe not? My Libra sun moves from the 9th to the 10th. I am Capricorn rising. I have played around some and a 9th house Libra Sun does feel right. However, I have spent my life struggling with work and where do I fit so it makes me wonder is the 10th house a fit as the Sun often is the area of work/struggle. I think 9th house is more me than 10th. Mostly because if I could find a way to make a living just traveling and seeing the world - that would be awesome! It seems if I was truly a 10th house sun I would be focused on making my mark in the world and embrace my current administrator role more than I do.

Thoughts and discussion most appreciated!
I can relate; my entire chart is completely changed when trying the 'Whole sign' house system. I have also done my chart for sidereal too; WoW! It's a lot to wrap my head around especially since I've been using either equal house or placidius since 1980. I've gotta really meditate to see what feels 'true' to me. However, I've got to tell you that when sidereal astrology was finally explained to me I was blown away! I really had no idea what the tropical system truly meant.......it's crazy. Thanks for the thread!

Blessings.
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Unread 07-07-2012, 09:06 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

i'm the reverse. i've always done whole signs and don't use placidus. whole signs makes sense to me because there's 30 degrees for each sign and all the planets in 1 sign belongs in 1 house. it's simple and elegant enough, why complicate it?
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Unread 07-08-2012, 03:31 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Whole signs are the signs of the zodiac calculated from 0 degrees of the sign rising at the moment of birth and arranged equally around the chart. It is not a house system as such, just the signs of the zodiac. It is a very simple form of mapping, suitable for beginners, and will fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world.

House systems are calculated for the exact time of birth and the exact latitude of birth. These map the nature of the individual person as it is very rare for two people to be born at exactly the same time and exactly the same place in the world.

So for a very generalised form of astrology whole signs will fit the bill - it is a bit like a more involved form of Sun sign astrology. For the astrology of the individual, house systems tell the story much more accurately.

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Unread 07-08-2012, 03:56 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

That's helpful
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Unread 07-08-2012, 03:58 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

fwiw IMO it is important to remember - as dr. farr has explained as follows - the original intended way whole signs was used by astrologers at least two thousand years ago

There are astrologers who continue to use whole signs currently. Often referred to as "Hellenistic Delineation"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":


it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword - so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,

and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)


But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT - and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses - each house - that is the "cusp" of each house - is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?

Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)


Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)


I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign - it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:


-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners - to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 07:33 PM
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What house system should I be using?

What is most commonly used for accuracy...?

Why do some use Placidus?
Why do others use Equal?

Help, help, help??? Explain!?

ThankS
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Unread 07-12-2012, 07:54 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Most will give you different answers...To me the concept of using different charts just generates confusion and contradiction...For consistency I like to just stick to one, and refer that to transits, progressions and solar returns, etc. that is where I get my accuracy from. Now what will you do when one person tells you that their choice is the best one, and another tells you something different? Of course traditionalists will surely try to 'set me straight' on the topic.
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Unread 07-12-2012, 07:55 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
What is most commonly used for accuracy...?

Why do some use Placidus?
Why do others use Equal?

Help, help, help??? Explain!?

ThankS
There are more than forty different house systems and fourteen of them are available for anyone to experiment with when creating their natal chart on astro.com

Each astrologer uses their preferred house system of choice, based on their own opinion of accuracy. There is no consensus as such. It is not unusual for astrologers to disagree on many aspects of the particular form of astrology that they practice
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Unread 07-12-2012, 08:16 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

I used Placidus before, but then I saw that many are recommended Koch...Now I switched to Whole Signs,which shows a much different picture than the previous two...Astrologers say the essence is always the same, no matter which system is chosen...Personally, this is confusing, because I thought that my Saturn and Jupiter are in the 12th,but now, in the first... I read somewhere that for beginners is the best the system of Whole Signs...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 08:40 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandra0406 View Post
I used Placidus before, but then I saw that many are recommended Koch...Now I switched to Whole Signs,which shows a much different picture than the previous two...Astrologers say the essence is always the same, no matter which system is chosen...Personally, this is confusing, because I thought that my Saturn and Jupiter are in the 12th,but now, in the first... I read somewhere that for beginners is the best the system of Whole Signs...
Hmm, I don't understand the logic behind whole signs... but I'd like to!

Hmm...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 09:04 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
Hmm, I don't understand the logic behind whole signs... but I'd like to!

Hmm..
.
KingTaurus, a thread full of information entitled "Whole Sign Houses & The MC" is viewable at this link on the forum http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42613

fwiw, here's a sample from the thread specifically describing the use of Whole Sign Houses for delineation of a natal chart more than two thousand years ago in Hellenistic times - many astrologers continue to use this same system currently

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr
Cusps: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT - and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses - each house - that is the "cusp" of each house - is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:

- the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign - it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you
...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
Hmm, I don't understand the logic behind whole signs... but I'd like to!

Hmm...

It uses the ascendant sign as the first house and every house follows so instead of your first house being 13 degrees Leo its just Leo, there are no splits so if a planet is in a certain sign it will fall in the corresponding house regardless of the degree
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Unread 07-12-2012, 09:21 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
Hmm, I don't understand the logic behind whole signs... but I'd like to!

Hmm...
Whole Signs system is easier to use because you do not have to think that in some house are 2 or 3 signs, whether the planet in some house is in a different sign than to the cusp of the house and so on.But how to find the logic,this is very difficult,you have to find what suits you the most,and frankly I find it difficult too...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 09:47 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
Hmm, I don't understand the logic behind whole signs... but I'd like to!

Hmm...
I can't understand what's not to understand.

Tell us what you do understand, that might be a good starting point.
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Unread 07-12-2012, 10:26 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
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I can't understand what's not to understand.

Tell us what you do understand, that might be a good starting point.
I mean things to do with the horizon points... and latitudes etc...
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Unread 07-12-2012, 11:01 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaurus View Post
I mean things to do with the horizon points... and latitudes etc...
All house systems have the identical MC/IC/ASC/DESC for the particular time of the particular natal chart - its only the other eight 'house cusps' that differ
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Unread 07-13-2012, 02:27 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

Here are a few threads (that I know of) that explain some of the differences and also compare some of the more used house systems:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ighlight=house


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ighlight=house

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ighlight=house
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Unread 07-19-2012, 10:07 AM
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Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Which one do you think is most accurate? Do you think it depends on the person and what feels right for them? Personally I feel like I relate more to my placements using Placidus, but there're some planetary placements in whole sign that seem a little like me too.. so I don't know.

Opinions appreciated.

I'm aware that this subject has probably cropped up lots, but I haven't found any threads yet so if you know of any let me know

Should we take both Placidus and Whole Sign placements into account when interpreting a chart?
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Unread 07-20-2012, 03:16 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

(Following is my own experience and opinion and is not intended to be antagonistic to those using other house system formats)

I used Placidus for over 30 years-and I got good results. But too often I was left with doubts regarding house placements, the problem of intercepted signs, factors in the chart that just didn't seem to fit in too well. But, I obtained good results.

In the late 1990's I learned about the rediscovery of the original ancient house system format, actually called sign=house, but which soon became known simply as "whole sign": I began experimenting with it, I obtained even better results than my previous use of Placidus, and also I never again ran into such unnatural issues like intercepted signs, intercepted houses, etc (which always at least occasionally happen using any of the quadrant house formats)

Since 1998 I have exclusively used whole sign for any and all types of astrological charts-horary, natal, profection, Solar Return, composite, mundane, event charts: I have been quite satisfied with the results, and it is my opinion that the whole sign house format consistently yields the most accurate results (hence one of my nicknames, "Dr. Whole Sign")
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Unread 07-20-2012, 05:10 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

My disclaimer reads the same as Dr. Farrs'. So I need not have to type it here.

I have found to my complete satisfaction though, that as far as interpreting [knowing or understanding] what ones approach or attitude is as to the affairs of the particular House in question [unless one is fighting ones own nature or determinedly applying some directive or philosophy they have dedicated themselves to] that Placidus is the choice for the particular application of interpretation of House Cusp degree symbolism.
I only believe in the set of symbols known as the Sabian Symbols though, and whether or not any other set of such degree for the Zodiac have any veracity is up to yourself to determine... the Sabians as well, as I'm not trying to ram anything down anyones throat here.
I'm just saying, that if you do wish to start, or already are, utilizing Sabian Symbols in this manner... I won't recommend anything else for that purpose other than Placidus.
Whether Placidus should be the only House system one should use for all matters of Astrological houses is another matter altogether and I'm not addressing that nor do I care too.
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Unread 07-20-2012, 05:50 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I realized that this concept may be so foreign to you or anyone that reads it that I'd best give an example.
Let me use the 8th House as an example...as I can really speak from a lot of experience as to a particular matter concerning the 8th House. That matter being of with the dissolution of of material structures back into energy. An example is that of which 'elemental or 'sympathetic magick' is a part of. It deals with anything that [but certainly not limited to] some sort of 'presence', if I may be permitted to say, that some one might 'conjure up' using the aforesaid types of "magick' [Now if you don't want to believe in 'magick', as such, that's fine. Please discontinue reading and disregard this post of mine...but I do wish to complete this explanation for any others that may also have read to this point and would like for me to complete this post.] As the 8th House does deal with things of dissolution and by that dissolute beings [meaning astral and or etheric entities, un-embodied energies, ghosts etc...things of such nature. ...if someone wishes to say "Demons"...that would fall into this category. Now, I"M NOT SAYING...I'm just saying...if you catch my drift.]

Awhile back someone thought they were, "Going to show me a thing or two"...as to to the only way I can put this... let's just say I was dealing with a very determined individual with a very aggressive agenda as to "getting me out of the picture" as He saw me in His way as to getting to my sister... whom is a very physically beautiful woman and had sought some advice on some spiritual matters and she is a bit naive about trusting people that advertise such service, believing them to be 'aligned with the direction' she thinks every one is, or should be, that would so advertise.

So to get to the point..let me just say that this 'advisor' won't ever dare try to approach her again and certainly won't try me again for the reason I can only illustrate and that illustration being the Sabian Symbol for the 17th degree of Gemini, my Placidus 8th House cusp.
..and which is [by the late, great 20th century writer, philosopher, astrologer, Dane Rudhyar, from his book on these symbols, "An Astrological Mandala"]

"THE HEAD OF A ROBUST YOUTH CHANGES INTO THAT OF A MATURE THINKER.

KEYNOTE: The transformation of physical vitality into the power to build concepts and intellectual formulations through which knowledge can be transferred
.

While in the preceding symbol we see the explosive release of impulses generated by a new realization of what is right and wrong - the "woman" way controlled by feelings - now we have a picture of a process of quiet and steady metamorphosis of biological energy into mind-power, which can be seen symbolically as the "man" way. The symbolism may seem old-fashioned today, but the two contrasting approaches to communication of new experiences remain evident, however one wishes to symbolize them.

This second stage of the sixteenth sequence, as is nearly always the case, presents a contrast with the first stage. What we see pictured is the transformation of emotions into mind, of instincts into thoughts - a process of MENTAL METAMORPHOSIS."

...If it can be done..it can be undone... or even turned around...
I can't explain it any more than that as this isn't of the venue for such discussions, nor the topic itself ..and I do apologize for having to pick this particular subject for demonstration...but it is one I am MOST assured of...and sometimes it takes 'a recounting' of something that is of 'dramatic effect' to get ones 'point' across [I'm not trying to make this any more than what it was/is to create a 'Drama' ..it happened, I'm not "making this up", and by most people that did hear such an account, I know that they would so deem it to be so.]

So, in conclusion, let me say that whatever House you wish to know of as to how you are 'wired' to deal with the affairs of that particular Houses' affairs ...regardless of House System [unless they are in conflict with those affairs of Houses that Placidus does claim to and also does actually deal with...as I know there probably are some conflicts between some systems on an affair or two... and I understand there are, according to some astrologers, definitely some conflicts in regard to that matter...] .... when using the Sabian Symbols in this manner, Placidus is the only system for that application alone that, I both know of and, I so will endorse...and I am steadfast in that conclusion... and somewhere on this Earth there is a certain person that knows this to be a fact. [if he's still alive, that is...I don't know if my sister is still so naive to this day... but at least she certainly is a little less so...so I can't I can't say for her whether or not she would so publicly endorse my statement..but I do know she won't deny it in private.]
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