WHY does Horary have strictures?

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Anachiel

Well-known member
Hello;

Just curious why horary has strictures and if anyone thinks they are important. Are strictures just a fad that is going out of style? Or, is it because some astrologer in history, using a different form or system of astrology didn't use them and so, no one thinks they need to either. Seriously, are they there for a reason or did a couple of guys in the 17th century just decide over sherry and smokes that it would be fun to complicate horary even more?

Blessings,

Anachiel
 
tikana

tikana

Well-known member
of course there are reasons.

1. structures against judgement just give you a warning or warnings to watch out for something in the chart

2. it is not 17th century crackpots's rules

3. horary is not complicated just a lot of things to consider

4. unlike natal or transit astrology, it is either yes or no .. it is not opened to MAYBE
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Anachiel said:
Seriously, are they there for a reason or did a couple of guys in the 17th century just decide over sherry and smokes that it would be fun to complicate horary even more?
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No, these things are ancient, like thousands of years.

As I like to say, Strictures are Warnings to the Astrologer to take certain things into special Consideration when making judgment.

Lily is quoting Bonatti who wrote in the 12th Century.

Bonatti is quoting Zael, Masha-allah, al-Kindar, Omar, Abu Ma-shar, Abu Ali, Ibn Ezra and others who were writing in the 400s-700s CE.

And they're quoting Dorotheus, Rhetorius, Ptolomey and Valens from centuries earlier, and those are quoting from centuries before that.

So, this is not something that just popped up in the 17th Century.

Lily did make one minor change and that is he actually pinned Early/Late Ascendants at 3° and 27° respectively, but I still consider the first and last 5° to be Early/Late.

Other than that, they're all the same.

Ascendant Via Combusta there's no point in reading the chart because whatever answer you give is wrong. The situation will suddenly or drastically change and the chart will give no warning to that and you have no idea how/why the change will manifest itself.

Tail in the Ascendant is another. It doesn't matter what the chart says, it will work out negatively for the Querent. I've looked at more than 2 dozen of those and can't figure out how or why things turn out poorly, but they do.

With the exception of those two, you can still read charts with strictures, because the strictures don't render charts invalid, they just warn you to be careful in judging.

For Early Ascendants, things just aren't ready yet, or there are obstacles or things that have to happen first.

Late Ascendants, the chart is usually full of separating aspects or there are squares and oppositions, and the Querent knows the answer, but they ask out of frustration or desperation.

Same thing for Void of Course Moon. Reading the chart will tell you why nothing will happen, which is usually a lack of aspects or separating aspects.

Saturn in the 1st House, if there's good aspects, it will happen but with delays. Usually (but not always) Saturn represents something holding the Querent back and that is what causes the delay.

Saturn in the 7th House, either the Querent is hiding something from you, or you don't know enough. If I cast a medical Horary chart, I wouldn't be surprised to see Saturn in the 7th House because I don't know enough about medical things to render a good judgment so I would be better off letting someone else who is more knowledgeable read the chart to get a good answer.

If you search through the forum you'll see where these strictures work all the time.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Right-strictures are "warnings", NOT prohibitions against attempting a judgement. However, these "warnings" did increase in number as the centuries wore on: Bonatti in the 13th century emphasized the early/late ascendant, and the hour ruler/ascendant agreement; he also continued Ibn Ezra's (12th century) strong indication of the Moon Void of Course meaning nothing would come of the question under consideration (earlier horary authors did not consider the Moon VC much of a problem in horary delineation)

Perhaps the many strictures found today are more for the benefit of the practitioner, in not "taking chances" (violating the various strictures) and thereby decreasing the chances of getting an incorrect delineation (judgement).

I guess one could list the strictures and then only delineate a chart where none of the strictures are present (me? my only PROHIBITION is with the South Node in the rising sign; don't follow any other of the strictures)

-hour ruler (planetary hour ruler) and ascending sign must agree
-ascending degree must be more than 3 degree and less than 27 degrees of the ascending sign
-Moon cannot be Void of Course
-South Node cannot be in rising sign*
-rising degree cannot be in the Fiery Road (ie, between 15 Libra and 15 Scorpio)
-Saturn cannot be posited in the 1st house
-Saturn cannot be posited in the 7th house


(this is the only one I "believe in")
 
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Anachiel

Well-known member
Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

BobZemco said:
With the exception of those two, you can still read charts with strictures, because the strictures don't render charts invalid, they just warn you to be careful in judging.
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OK, so how do you tell if you are "careful" enough to render an applicable judgement if there is a stricture present? Obviously, I agree with using strictures. They evolved over a long period of time (much longer than my own humble life), by much greater thinkers, to discredit them. However, I find that as "traditional" horary (not sure what other kind of horary there could be, really and still call it horary) goes forward, the strictures are sort of a passing thought or something that can be 'avoided' because we think we know better. To me, the stricture IS the answer and the rest of the chart describes, perhaps why that is. But, other insights are always valuable.
On the same note, how did you determine which stricture was more important than another and that it could be downgraded to make the chart readable? Just curious. Is this from some other source?

BobZemco said:
If you search through the forum you'll see where these strictures work all the time.
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I agree, they do work. But, they aren't always followed which is why I ask what the strictures were there for.

I suppose in the long run the truth wins out. The beauty of horary is that it works or it doesn't and I suppose that is why certain methods and rules have held sway through the passage of time.
 
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Anachiel

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
Perhaps the many strictures found today are more for the benefit of the practitioner, in not "taking chances" (violating the various strictures) and thereby decreasing the chances of getting an incorrect delineation (judgement). ... (me? my only PROHIBITION is with the South Node in the rising sign; don't follow any other of the strictures)
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Curious, why? This is my point: are the strictures that important then if they can apparently be thrown out? Could they be there possibly for the benefit of the querent as well? IS it still horary if we start cutting and editing where we feel justified?

P.S. I'm just curious who had the South Node stricture? Watters? I know she believed in Nodal Degrees which, I never understood either unless she thought that is where an eclipse may have fallen and perhaps, to her, affected the horary.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Well, my personal answer-based ONLY on my personal experiences and results-is that no-except for the SN prohibition-the various strictures TO ME are not important-I use horary without them, and I get satisfactory results (relative to % of correct predictions) I do note that the earliest horarists did not follow strictures like VC Moon, planetary hour agreements, Saturn in the 7th affecting the practitioner's judgement, too early/too late ascendants; and in Vedic horary (both prasna sastra and the later prasna tantra), which horary techniques arose hundreds of years prior to the first recordings of Western horary practice, there are none of these equivalent strictures, either. Now please note that I am not knocking these strictures, I am only expressing my own personal experiences and results, in response to the above poster's question. The Ankara (old Turkish or "Ottoman astrology") horary tradition I learned, only followed the too early too late ascendant stricture, but at a closer level (1 degree/29 degrees) than the limits later established (3 degrees/27degrees)

The South Node prohibition: this too is not found in the earlier horarists; I learned of it from the works of Gerard of Cremona (13th century, roughly contemporary with Guido Bonatti), reinforced later by H.C. Agrippa; this idea "made sense" to me, I started to follow it, and it has always proven itself TO ME over many years of following it (Jaimini jyotish adepts have a similar idea regarding the SN, which they call "Ketu", relative to Vedic horary-prasna sastra and prasna marga)
 
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BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Anachiel said:
OK, so how do you tell if you are "careful" enough to render an applicable judgement if there is a stricture present?
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I don't know. You just know I guess.

"Warnings" is probably a bad name. "Tips/Hints" would be better. If someone asks, "Will I marry this guy?" and you're looking at the chart thinking, well he's already married or he's in prison. No, that can't be right, can it? Then you see Saturn Peregrine and Retrograde in Aries in the 7th House, so, maybe you might want to ask your client what's going on, because your client probably omitted a few "minor" details about the relationship.

They add confirmation too. Late Ascendant, answer is "No" so if they know the answer already then why ask? Look at Moon: in a House of Fear, or Via Combusta, or Combust, or Slow or with the Nodes or in Fall, the Querent is frazzled, frustrated, upset, scared, or something like that. Then again, maybe the Moon is strong, and they even though they knew the outcome they just wanted confirmation. Ascendant Ruler same thing: in a House of Fear, Peregrine or Under Beams just shows their state of mind.

I wouldn't get too hung up on them. No one says you can't read charts with strictures (except for a few idiot web-sites).

Anachiel said:
To me, the stricture IS the answer and the rest of the chart describes, perhaps why that is.
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Sure, you can look at it that way.

Anachiel said:
On the same note, how did you determine which stricture was more important than another and that it could be downgraded to make the chart readable? Just curious. Is this from some other source?
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Lily does say not to "meddle" with Late Ascendants, but I suppose that's probably because it was a waste of time. Remember they did things by hand. After calculating the Ascendant, and it is late, what would be the point of doing all the math for the remaining Houses and the Planets?

That's a lot of work for nothing.

As far as Saturn in the 7th, if the Querent is on the level, then it's a simple matter of either you understand the subject matter or you don't. The Art of Horary is not "Yes/No" its "Why/How."

You might have a good understanding of legal matters, but laws do differ from country to country, so you might want to take that into consideration when reading a chart from someone in another country.

You're seeing something in the chart and not understanding what it is, well that's actually the Defendant naming a 3rd Party as another Defendant. It might be a good idea to give your client a heads up that this is going to happen (although it isn't necessarily harmful to the client) but you could read the chart wrong telling the client they will win, and they do, against the 1st Party Defendant, but they lose against the 3rd Party Defendant. You client might be angry.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Mr Zemco makes an excellent point regarding knowing the subject matter of what you are attempting to delineate: such as his legal case example. The practitioner must have an understanding of the subject matter they are trying to delineate so as to actually be able to delineate it! This capacity to explain and understand WHY and HOW distinguishes horary-and renders horary a superior method-from mere yes/no divination methods (such as the Magic 8 Ball, which is merely yes/no; or from simple Lunar divination, which is merely favorable or unfavorable in its indications)
 
S

Serendipity

Well-known member
Strictures are just something else to take into consideration when reading the chart. Doesn't make it unreadable.
Like with an early ascendant... the situation may not be mature yet. Something may still be developing. But this is something you'd point out to the querent when giving your analysis.
Late ascendant...situation is at it's end. Nothing is really going to change and the querent probably knows this already as well as the answer.
Just more layers to decipher when reading.
 
tikana

tikana

Well-known member
Serendipity said:
Strictures are just something else to take into consideration when reading the chart. Doesn't make it unreadable.
Like with an early ascendant... the situation may not be mature yet. Something may still be developing. But this is something you'd point out to the querent when giving your analysis.
Late ascendant...situation is at it's end. Nothing is really going to change and the querent probably knows this already as well as the answer.
Just more layers to decipher when reading.
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that tooo:D
 
fushiafairy

fushiafairy

Well-known member
Hello,
this question is for BobZemco. Anyone else too for that matter.

When the south node is in the sign of the ascendant do you even bother reading the chart?
What about the first house, but not the same sign as the ascendant?
Also, what if south node is in the sign of the ascendant but in the 12th house?

Thank you.

Also I did a chart with a very early ascendant...should I reask it later?
 
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Aquarius358

Well-known member
fushiafairy said:
fushiafairy said:
When the south node is in the sign of the ascendant do you even bother reading the chart?
Yes, I would. But I would be mindful of its negative/malefic outcome for the querent - it would also depend on the question and how close it was to the cusp or any other planet in the 1st House. Perhaps the quesited is in the 1st House within 3 degrees of the South Node, so maybe the querent will get what they want but may not like it in their life after all. Something like that.

What about the first house, but not the same sign as the ascendant?
I would judge that it would not have the same malefic effect as it would in the same sign as Asc.

Also, what if south node is in the sign of the ascendant but in the 12th house?
If the question was a 12th House matter, then I would judge it as one negative or malefic affecting the affairs of that House but would also consider the 12 ruler. If the S/Node were within 5 degrees of the ASC, I would of course judge it to be in the 1st House.

Also I did a chart with a very early ascendant...should I reask it later?
I would judge the chart I put up first because it would have been after serious thinking about the matter and because I don't believe I can pick and choose the time of my asking - ie wait for an hour and ask again knowing the ASC degree will have moved on. I also hold the view that all charts if put up with good intention and serious motivation/attitude behind them are able to be judged and the early degrees would be (as discussed here, earlier) part of the whole story that the chart reveals. Sometimes people ask frivolous questions just to "test" an astrologer ... but if, as astrologer, I put up the chart for the time that I have understood the actual question, have asked my client for as many details as I can without being too personal or intrusive (!!) and with proper motivation and humility, and the ASC shows an early degree, then that is the chart I judge and the early degree will be a part of what I take into account in my judgment. But I would definitely not say the chart cannot be judged with early or late degrees on the Asc. ____
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Click to expand...
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
As is well known here on AW (in horary) I follow Gerard of Cremona and H.C. Agrippa and if I find the SN anywhere in the 1st house (which, in whole sign, is always the same as the ascending sign) I consider the chart to be made unreliable by such placement, and it is really my only stricture against judgement (I suggest to the querent that the question be asked again at a later time)

In the Ankara (Ottoman astrology) horary tradition (which I mostly follow), the SN in the 1st house automatically means a "no" or otherwise negative answer to the question regardless of all other considerations.
I do not follow this outlook, because the SN represents chaos, and what I believe is that its presence in the 1st pollutes the indications of the chart-or perhaps, rather, the attempt to delineate a correct answer from those indications-and so when you get a yes answer it often turns out to be a no, and when you get a no answer if often turns out to be a yes: in other words, the SN in the first greatly increases the chances of coming to an incorrect conclusion-coming to a wrong answer-from the chart.

The Ankara horary tradition also said that the SN in the primary quesited house automatically indicated a negative answer to the question, regardless of all other considerations in the chart. THIS outlook I do follow, and have seldom seen it proven wrong...
 
fushiafairy

fushiafairy

Well-known member
Thank you Aquarius358 and Dr. Farr for answering my questions.

I am trying to do more and more charts to get experience. I don't know what techniques work for me yet, and don't feel like I will know for a long long time. But that is okay.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
It does take time, and actual experience, to hone one's predictive ability; same in mundane astrology and predictive astrology for natals (SRs, progressions, transits, profections) Don't get discouraged and don't allow yourself to feel overwhelmed, all of us still have a lot to learn!
 
lilithofeden

lilithofeden

Well-known member
I think it just depends on the person and what works with them. There are so many types of astrology and ways to read a chart, but they all seem to work! Just like in math there are a few ways you can solve an equation and get the same answer. It all depends what works for you.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
lilithofeden said:
I think it just depends on the person and what works with them. There are so many types of astrology and ways to read a chart, but they all seem to work! Just like in math there are a few ways you can solve an equation and get the same answer. It all depends what works for you.
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Agree 100%:biggrin:!
 
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tootsie

Well-known member
Hey, this is kinda off the track. But, I have been wondering what if Mars is in the 1st h. It is a malific and they aren't good, but planets in the 1st h are impt. Next, if the moon rules the 12h??? Then, there are those charts where the moon is in the 12h. Also, malifics conj. are always not good .... especially if one of them is like Saturn. Although, Saturn is dig. so now he can still create chaos. Seems to me like when the other person being asked about in a relationship chart is Saturn it doesn't turn out weill. But..on the other hand Saturn could relate to older people....but my experience usually not soo good. Any in put would be much appreciated.
T
 
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