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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #26  
Unread 07-20-2012, 05:50 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Gosh, be careful! This topic can set off WWIII among astrologers!

Usually I use Placidus, but there are situations where I would use an equal house or whole signs.

To me it just makes sense to have the horizons (AC and DC) and midheaven at the beginning of their respective houses. If you look outside in a place with a good 360-degree view, this is a more natural way of looking at the sky. The MC (uppermost point of the sun's daily journey) will move, north and south, and closer to or further from the horizons, depending upon the seasons. Then just consider a sensible way of dividing up the houses between the angles.

Also, I think intercepted signs really mean something in a horoscope. A planet in an intercepted sign tends to be boxed-in, or unable to get the real traction you would otherwise expect from its placement. Someone with the sun in an intercepted sign seems to have more of an identity crisis than others, leading to uncertainty about what s/he should be doing in life.

Then you get duplicate signs in a chart, as well. Planets ruling the cusps of these houses should gain in influence in the chart. So why would I wish to lose this interpretive value?

However, whole signs have something to offer, as well. The analogy I would use is that if you want a picture of someone's face, you would probably look at the full-frontal view. But a profile or oblique angle will aid your understanding of what this person looks like.

Also, if planets are cuspy, you might want to run a series of house systems to get a clearer picture of where their influence lies.

The big caveat with Placidus is that it gets very distorted at high latitudes, such as Norway or Alaska. You find a few enormous houses with two or even more intercepted signs, and some very tiny ones. This may be mathematically correct, but not very helpful in terms of interpretation. So then I would especially look at the equal house method, or perhaps whole signs. (You can try other unequal house systems, but they may not improve matters.)

I would definitely use whole signs if a birth time were only approximate: close enough to give you the correct rising sign, but not close enough to give you the degrees of the angles.

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  #27  
Unread 07-20-2012, 06:31 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Simply put, it depends on the method or "style" of astrology that you use.

If you are Hellenistic or similar, whole signs will be of use. Otherwise, Placidus or many of the myriad other houses systems do fine. If you follow Morinus method, then use his house system and dignities, etc. If you are Uranian, they have their preferred house system for their system. You get the picture.
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Unread 07-22-2012, 12:47 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

My only advice is PLEASE....find ONE that works for you and stick to it until or unless you become very advanced and feel comfortable in experimenting in this area. Trying to fit a system to a person (I had a student who hated her ascendant and tried to prove it wasn't hers....but not only was her father and grandmother right there at the time, her mother heard the nurse call the time) - is just silly.

Lots of people "don't like" where a planet is in there chart or their ascendant...but... changing the system you use is not the answer.
So - pick one. Stick to it. If it proves to be consistantly innacurate, try another. But use one system for a year or so and do many charts before switching systems.
IMO
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  #29  
Unread 07-22-2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I find that people choosing the system that gives them the 'best chart' is fairly common, human I suppose.

But it's not the point of astrology.

Same with zodiac.
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Unread 07-22-2012, 01:51 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I have found whole sign to be really good for understanding topics, and where planetary energy will manefest, and use a quadrant based system like Placidus to help determine angularity. But, like Anachiel posted, I work mostly with Hellenistic delineations.

The best advice I ever saw about house systems is to pick an astrologer you want to study, and then use the house system that astrologer uses/used.
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  #31  
Unread 07-22-2012, 08:46 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

I reckon, we should use both housing systems.

Personally, I see different things from each system and interestingly enough, messages that I got from Both systems reflecting back my real life events very accurately.

I like whole sign system as Chinese Astrology also only use whole sign and so as the Vedic as well as Classic Western astrology.

I also accept new system for the fun of experiment and for the discovery of new technique, however, I respect the traditional systems as they given reliable results and passed the test of time.


Yer, I dont put limit to myself basically. I use whatever that works and gives me the best accurate readings.
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Unread 07-22-2012, 10:17 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

That can get really time consuming if you do several new charts per week! Of course if you are only reading for yourself, that is different.

I believe you need to use a system you are confident in enough to believe that what you are telling someone is accurate. If you switch between systems it seems as though you don't have confidence in one of them....and if it isn't accurate you should not use it at all! If it IS accurate, you may want to experiment to see if other systems back up what your primary system says, but if there is ambiguity you may seriously confuse both yourself and the person for whom you are reading.
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  #33  
Unread 07-23-2012, 02:34 AM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

First of all consider that whole signs will fit probably millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world as it doesn't consider either the time or latitude of birth. It is really not a house system at all, it is just the signs of the zodiac arranged around the chart, starting at 0 degrees of the sign rising at the time of birth. it should be called 'the zodiac sign system' as that is a better description. As these charts fit so many, many people, they can't map the individual energies of a person.

House Systems, which are calculated from both the exact time and exact latitude of birth, map the energies of an individual very well indeed. They can even map the difference between people born very close together through exact aspects to house cusps, etc.,

Bear in mind that Placidus is not the only house system, there are others that are just as powerful and often more effective. Placidus is popular purely because these were the only house system calculations available for people learning astrology back in the '60's and '70's and these people went on to teach this system to many others. Previous to the popularity of Placidus, the Regiomontanus, Campanus and Alcabitius systems etc. had their periods of popularity and post Placidus, Koch, Topocentric and some others all have their adherents. So if Placidus doesn't fit properly, then it is almost certain that another house system will.

All house systems are calculated through various means of dividing time and/or space so each has mathematical validity.

So it is not as simple as Placidus versus Whole Sign or Equal House, it is much more involved than that. I have spent quite a bit of my astrological life sorting this out and have come to the conclusion that one house system doesn't fit all; people can and do have their major resonance to different ways of dividing time and space and therefore can respond to different house systems.

Unless you are a professional astrologer this doesn't matter too much. As a general rule you usually attract those who have a similar resonace to yourself so the house system you respond to will most likely fit others. If you are a professional astrologer you do need to be aware that your clients will not necessarily respond to your chosen house system and if there are problems, then check out the others. I have given a method on how to do this here: http://aliceportman.com/house-cusps-and-house-systems/

In addition, Ed Falis and some others work with mundane house cusps for events and these make a great deal of sense as well.

Waybread has mentioned that discussions on house systems usually bring about WW3 in the astrological community and I agree. I think this is because house cusps are very, very personal and people feel deeply threatened if their own system is questioned. I remember doing hours and hours and hours of work on events in a fellow astrologer's chart as he wanted to check out my system; these events showed a strong resonance to the Koch system but this astrologer had considerable emotional investment in the Placidus system so wouldn't accept my data. Since then I have learned this is a very common attitude.

In any form of astrology it is always up to the astrologer to choose what systems of measurement to use and most choose the system that resonates most strongly to their own understanding of astrology, as their understanding grows this often changes. However, for a clear map of an individual person I would advise choosing a house system rather than the very general whole signs which will fit millions of people born within two hours or equal house which will fit thousands of people born around the same time all over the world.

Alice

Last edited by Alice McDermott; 07-23-2012 at 02:40 AM.
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  #34  
Unread 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Thanks for bringing up the original meaning of "cusps" and digging up info about the origins of whole signs system. It's not just for "beginners" but it's a bonafide system.

I was taught to read whole signs by the 2 different astrologers who pushed me to further study astrology. My Dad taught me to read whole signs when I was under 10 years old and he was in his 30s dabbling in astrological charts and fixed stars.

I've tried to read Placidus but it never made any sense to me. Every sign has 30 degrees so it makes sense that there's 1 sign for for 1 house. I find it sounds wacky that there could be 2 or 3 different signs in 1 house and couldn't really get into it.

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  #35  
Unread 07-23-2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

With Placidus houses, I've always wondered what determines the size of the houses. You see various sized houses in each chart, sometimes a house will be quite large, encompassing 30+ degrees, which other tiles a house will be quite small encompassing less than 30 degrees.

Why is this, and what determines it?
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Unread 07-23-2012, 01:17 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Whole signs are the signs of the zodiac calculated from 0 degrees of the sign rising at the moment of birth and arranged equally around the chart. It is not a house system as such, just the signs of the zodiac. It is a very simple form of mapping, suitable for beginners, and will fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world.

House systems are calculated for the exact time of birth and the exact latitude of birth. These map the nature of the individual person as it is very rare for two people to be born at exactly the same time and exactly the same place in the world.

So for a very generalised form of astrology whole signs will fit the bill - it is a bit like a more involved form of Sun sign astrology. For the astrology of the individual, house systems tell the story much more accurately.

Alice
I think this was an accepted view of whole signs until very recently (in the last 10-20 years) when more and more information on ancient astrology has come to light. Whole signs is a house system, and the signs themselves define the houses, or "places." It's the entire reason for the existence of the zodiac. It may seem remedial due to it's simplicity, but simple doesn't always equal ineffective.

As to the statement that it is very generalized and not individual, this negates the purpose of the ASC degree, the IC/MC axis, the location of the lots and their degrees, the value of the 12th parts...there is a rich history of individualization to be found and used with whole signs. Angularity is still of paramount importance. The houses as the signs themselves give a very good, detailed understanding of the thematic nature of the natal chart, and show where the planetary energy will manifest.
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  #37  
Unread 07-23-2012, 01:18 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
First of all consider that whole signs will fit probably millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the worldas it doesn't consider either the time or latitude of birth.
fwiw since whole sign houses considers BOTH time AND latitude of birth then IMO that is an inaccurate observation.

One may easily check the accuracy or inaccuracy of the observation by referring to the 'Extended Chart Selection' page provided on astro.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
It is really not a house system at all, it is just the signs of the zodiac arranged around the chart, starting at 0 degrees of the sign rising at the time of birth. it should be called 'the zodiac sign system' as that is a better description. As these charts fit so many, many people, they can't map the individual energies of a person.

fwiw, I'm no expert, however this statement is clearly IMO erroneous and easily proved incorrect

On the 'Extended Chart Selection' page at astro.com then choose whole signs
from amongst the fourteen different house systems offered on the 'house systems' option

When you have selected 'whole signs' option then you can calculate your chart using whole sign house system

Notice that your whole sign chart displays MC/IC as well as ASC/DESC. Whole signs IS in fact a house system! - here's a useful read that explains the subject
http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 07-23-2012 at 02:50 PM. Reason: clarification
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Unread 07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Whole signs are the signs of the zodiac calculated from 0 degrees of the sign rising at the moment of birth and arranged equally around the chart
I would agree with this part of your post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
It is not a house system as such, just the signs of the zodiac. It is a very simple form of mapping, suitable for beginners, and will fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world.
I differ on this point because in order to calculate whole sign house system one MUST input exact time, latitude - as well as day/date

Anyone using the 'Extended Chart Selection' on astro.com may choose the option "whole signs" from 'house systems' (there are in fact 14 house systems on offer on astro.com)
and calculate a natal chart using whole signs

fwiw, whole signs most definitely DOES NOT 'fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world'!

Why do I say that? I say that because a natal chart using whole signs always displays MC/IC as well as DESC/ASC because time and latitude are taken into consideration for its calculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
House systems are calculated for the exact time of birth and the exact latitude of birth. These map the nature of the individual person as it is very rare for two people to be born at exactly the same time and exactly the same place in the world.
BUT whole sign house system DOES require the exact time of birth and the exact latitude in order to calculate it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
So for a very generalised form of astrology whole signs will fit the bill - it is a bit like a more involved form of Sun sign astrology
Whole sign house system is far more involved than Sun Sign astrology and fwiw IMO it is misleading to equate the two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
For the astrology of the individual, house systems tell the story much more accurately.Alice
House sytems do tell the story accurately and since whole signs is an accurate house system that requires an exact time and latitude for its calculation then whole signs DOES tell the story accurately because whole signs displays MC/IC/ASC/DESC
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  #39  
Unread 07-23-2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

I don't see how whole signs is not a house system. It is simply a system where the spaces in relationship to the horizon that denotes the topical divisions and other qualities of the houses occupy a different area than if one were to use placidus, equal, regio etc.

We still use the houses to derive topical information, and to judge planetary strength.

And it is nothing like the vague information one can glean from reading the sun sign alone, and to equate whole sign houses with sun sign astrology is very strange IMO
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Unread 07-23-2012, 05:01 PM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

I use whole signs, so far it's worked natally and for transits
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  #41  
Unread 07-23-2012, 07:15 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
The best advice I ever saw about house systems is to pick an astrologer you want to study, and then use the house system that astrologer uses/used.
Thank you. That was my advice in a thread similar to this one quite some ago I think it basically ends any argument this hot topic could ignite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Simply put, it depends on the method or "style" of astrology that you use.

If you are Hellenistic or similar, whole signs will be of use. Otherwise, Placidus or many of the myriad other houses systems do fine. If you follow Morinus method, then use his house system and dignities, etc. If you are Uranian, they have their preferred house system for their system. You get the picture.
With all good intent, I think the above also should solve any dilemma one finds themselves in regarding house systems.
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Unread 07-23-2012, 10:49 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I would agree with this part of your post

I differ on this point because in order to calculate whole sign house system one MUST input exact time, latitude - as well as day/date


Well, no! You can be quite vague about the exact time of birth! And though you do imput latitude and longitude, this isn't really considered except for the Ascendant-Descendant and MC-IC axis placed in the zodiac chart. Consider that millions of people all over the world will be born with exactly the same houses i.e. zodiac signs arranged around their chart, even though the Ascendant-Descendant and MC-IC might be in different places - how on earth can this describe an individual?

Quote:
fwiw, whole signs most definitely DOES NOT 'fit millions of people born within an approximately two hour span all over the world'!


Of course it does! How could it be otherwise? Think of the many, many babies born into the world over a two hour span! - as I said, millions!

Quote:
Whole sign house system is far more involved than Sun Sign astrology and fwiw IMO it is misleading to equate the two.


It is just one step above Sun sign astrology - I suppose it is Ascendant sign astrology as everything is equated back to the Ascendant sign; very, very simple stuff.

Quote:
House sytems do tell the story accurately and since whole signs is an accurate house system that requires an exact time and latitude for its calculation then whole signs DOES tell the story accurately because whole signs displays MC/IC/ASC/DESC


Again - no it doesn't tell the story accurately - at least with houses as they aren't houses, they are just the signs of the zodiac arranged around the chart from 0 degrees of the sign Ascending. The only reason you calculate the time and latitude is to find the Ascending sign and really you don't have to be all that accurate with the time either.

When I think of preciseness of modern astrology and particularly harmonic astrology, this makes me very sad. Do you know that if you have the correct time of birth and house system, the house cusps will respond to events right on time - with transits, progressions, directions and age harmonics. To disregard a whole, accurate system of modern astrology and go back to a very simple form of arranging houses through zodiac signs just because the ancients used this system, in my mind is absolutely ridiculous.

Alice
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Unread 07-23-2012, 10:58 PM
Alice McDermott Alice McDermott is offline
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Whole signs IS in fact a house system! - here's a useful read that explains the subject http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html
This article is not very good! Consider this extract

Quote:
The Ascendant and Midheaven, in effect, become PLANETS, which is what they truly are,
First of all, it is the Ascendant-Descendant and MC-IC axis, not just one side of the axis; secondly saying these points are planets shows a considerable lack of knowledge of both astrology and astronomy. Like all house cusps these are energy points derived from the time and place of birth on Earth that are deeply relevant to the individual, they are not the other planets in our solar system.

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Unread 07-23-2012, 11:18 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
" It's the entire reason for the existence of the zodiac.
The zodiac is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun -as I have explained in my article on Southern Hemisphere astrology here: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-...ere-astrology/

The houses are derived from the time and place of an event on Earth itself.

Alice

Quote:
As to the statement that it is very generalized and not individual, this negates the purpose of the ASC degree, the IC/MC axis, the location of the lots and their degrees, the value of the 12th parts...there is a rich history of individualization to be found and used with whole signs. Angularity is still of paramount importance. The houses as the signs themselves give a very good, detailed understanding of the thematic nature of the natal chart, and show where the planetary energy will manifest.
I am quite a fan of the Lots and use them a great deal in my own astrology, so they are not just relevant to zodiac sign houses. Naturally zodiac sign houses will work to some degree because zodiac signs are a powerful factor in our use of astrology and the sign rising at the time of birth is always important, but to ignore the value and accuracy of the division of time and space at a specific location to determine house cusps seems to me to be ignoring a most effective and very accurate form of astrology as these map the individual nature of a person.

Alice
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Unread 07-23-2012, 11:26 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Thank you. That was my advice in a thread similar to this one quite some ago I think it basically ends any argument this hot topic could ignite



With all good intent, I think the above also should solve any dilemma one finds themselves in regarding house systems.
Anachiel, I thought it might have been you who gave that advice, but couldn't remember and didn't want to be wrong. Still the best advice I ever read.

Any dilemma regarding house systems can be initially solved that way, until the fledgling astrologer has studied enough masters, and enough house systems, and looked at enough charts to know what works for him/her and what doesn't. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to understand how they all work, especially when discussing astrology with, you know, other astrologers who might be using something else. At least if you want the discussion to actually be productive, and not just how you can recite this fact or that to prove a point that, in the end, only really matters to you...

To say that one is better than the other, to say that my house system can beat up your house system, to do the same about the (shhhh, I know) zodiac question is to demean the contributions of other astrologers, and in fact is a really great way to shut down productive learning and discussion. In my own opinion, of course.
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  #46  
Unread 07-23-2012, 11:32 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

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Originally Posted by may28gemini View Post
Thanks for bringing up the original meaning of "cusps" and digging up info about the origins of whole signs system. It's not just for "beginners" but it's a bonafide system.

I was taught to read whole signs by the 2 different astrologers who pushed me to further study astrology. My Dad taught me to read whole signs when I was under 10 years old and he was in his 30s dabbling in astrological charts and fixed stars.
Hi may28gemini

I am glad you have been studying astrology since you were 10, it gives you a very good grounding in our craft.

From what I have read you have only used whole sign astrology and have only had teachers that use this system? Perhaps at some stage it would be worthwhile for you to really study proper house systems and see how accurate the correct system can be.

Quote:
I've tried to read Placidus but it never made any sense to me. Every sign has 30 degrees so it makes sense that there's 1 sign for for 1 house. I find it sounds wacky that there could be 2 or 3 different signs in 1 house and couldn't really get into it.
Most students of astrology have difficulty reading a chart in any other way that the way they were originally taught; it takes quite a few years of deeper study in this area to be comfortable with other systems, should you wish to consider other systems.

One sign for one house is elegant, but long experience shows me that elegance isn't always accuracy. Houses aren't signs, the signs of the Zodiac are derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun, houses are derived from a specific place on Earth.

Alice
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Unread 07-23-2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: Placidus vs. Whole Sign

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Anachiel, I thought it might have been you who gave that advice, but couldn't remember and didn't want to be wrong. Still the best advice I ever read.

Any dilemma regarding house systems can be initially solved that way, until the fledgling astrologer has studied enough masters, and enough house systems, and looked at enough charts to know what works for him/her and what doesn't. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to understand how they all work, especially when discussing astrology with, you know, other astrologers who might be using something else. At least if you want the discussion to actually be productive, and not just how you can recite this fact or that to prove a point that, in the end, only really matters to you...


To say that one is better than the other, to say that my house system can beat up your house system, to do the same about the (shhhh, I know) zodiac question is to demean the contributions of other astrologers, and in fact is a really great way to shut down productive learning and discussion. In my own opinion, of course.
Exactly tsmall! Well said!
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Unread 07-23-2012, 11:50 PM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

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Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
The zodiac is derived from the orbit of the Earth around the Sun -as I have explained in my article on Southern Hemisphere astrology here: http://aliceportman.com/what-is-the-...ere-astrology/

The houses are derived from the time and place of an event on Earth itself.

Alice
Hi Alice (waves) good to see you again.

That the zodiac itself, and the signs therin, is derived from the orbit of the earth around the Sun is one, and only one, theory of the zodiac. If what you said were universally true, Chinese, Vedic, Druid and other astrology would all use the same zodiac. And they don't. To say that the tropical zodiac is so contrived? That would be more accurate, don't you think? Let's keep in mind that the signs get their names from the constellations, and not the other way around. Also, to my understanding, the divisions of the ecliptic are in fact divisions of the apparent path of the Sun around the Earth, and not the other way 'round? Again keeping in mind that it is our perspective (and not, contrary to what some believe, that the ancients didn't know that the earth revolved around the Sun, since it has become more and more evident that they did) from our location on Earth that defines the zodiac.



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Originally Posted by Alice MeDermott View Post
I am quite a fan of the Lots and use them a great deal in my own astrology, so they are not just relevant to zodiac sign houses. Naturally zodiac sign houses will work to some degree because zodiac signs are a powerful factor in our use of astrology and the sign rising at the time of birth is always important, but to ignore the value and accuracy of the division of time and space at a specific location to determine house cusps seems to me to be ignoring a most effective and very accurate form of astrology as these map the individual nature of a person.

Alice
I don't dispute that the cusps of houses are important, and I also don't dispute your use of what ever quadrant based system works for you. But, to say that whole signs don't use house cusps is inaccurate and can be misleading. Because it does. A lot (forgive the pun.)

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Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Perhaps at some stage it would be worthwhile for you to really study proper house systems and see how accurate the correct system can be.
This is the kind of dismissive argument that negates serious discussion. That you have studied, taught, and practiced astrology for over 40 years isn't the issue. To discourage further exploration, and dismiss out of hand a house system that was in fact employed for over 1000 years for natal astrology as being "improper" and "incorrect" is part of what makes serious discussion about the merits of any house system difficult.
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Unread 07-24-2012, 12:11 AM
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Re: Whole signs vs. Placidus

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Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Perhaps at some stage it would be worthwhile for you to really study proper house systems and see how accurate the correct system can be.
Ouch, that tears it
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Unread 07-24-2012, 12:12 AM
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Re: What house system should I be using?

These threads are always lame. Why not show, don't tell. Let's see the correct system in action. I find results convincing, talk doesn't move me.
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