House Systems

Next to a modified form of Equal House, Charles Carter liked the Campanus format best; "New Waite" -in an old edition-is one of the first books I read (in the 1960's) in learning about astrology: certainly well worth it!

BYJOVE:
You mentioned Mars in the 12th house in whole sign: may I ask:
-what sign it is in?,
...and
-what degree is it in?

Thanks!

dr. farr said:

Next to a modified form of Equal House, Charles Carter liked the Campanus format best; "New Waite" -in an old edition-is one of the first books I read (in the 1960's) in learning about astrology: certainly well worth it!

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I didn't know about Charles Carter - but it's reasssuring to know that some other astrologers like Campanus as well

We probably read the same edition of "New Waite" - but I did find a more recent one in the Astrology Bookshop in Covent Garden a couple of years back, so it may be worth seeing if it's available either new or second hand for anyone who's interested in explanations about the basic mechanics of astrology.

Just checked on Amazon Books: they have several editions of the New Waite, for low prices; they also have the revised edition, 29 copies for as little as 71 cents! (US) each; now that is certainly a bargain!

dr. farr said:

Just checked on Amazon Books: they have several editions of the New Waite, for low prices; they also have the revised edition, 29 copies for as little as 71 cents! (US) each; now that is certainly a bargain!

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The UK Amazon site also has several copies of different editions, one as low as 1p!

The latest edition is £15. But the 1p copy is the 1981 edition, so it's one I can recommend.

Am I wrong in saying Amazon doesn't accept Euro? Set aside the political and economic tumbles, it's too powerful a currency for them NOT to be using it.

Dr. Farr, I've Mars in Whole Sign 12th of Gemini at late 3rd degree. The closest aspect it makes is 5.5 degree sextile with Pisces MC, and two wide 6 degree aspects to Mercury and Jupiter. It disposes the Sun, Jupiter and NN and is peregrine. To date my research on Mars in the 12th (not just modern cook-books) is uninspired. Even older material I find (added to being peregrine) suggests a bottled-up crouching-and-hidden tiger. Nope, nope, nope. I recognise Mars in Gemini very well but not the 12th.

I enter this topic cautiously and I am not wearing anything...flammable, that is. So, here goes:

byjove: Mars in the 12th is a placement that many very inspired people have. David Bowie and Camille Paglia for two off the top of my head. Mars in the 12th (natally) destroys your enemies and makes your a defender of whatever cause you find important or are inspired with. The 12 house alone (natally) is very misunderstood but...that is another thread someday.

OK, on topic: What I find most harmful to astrology, any type of any generation, is that there are a plethora of people with little understanding (or information) as to WHY it exists or came about.

For example, different house systems exist because those astrologers who were also highly skilled mathematicians and astronomers were evolving some then less accurate method of calculation that existed in their day.

Another reason was religious. For example, one reason William Lilly adhered to Regiomontanus was because he was Protestant. The Catholics did not like or use Regio, at the time and generally adhered to Placidus which, is really one of the main reasons Placidus became so popular.

Also, some systems are specific to a certain "flavor" or type of astrology and cannot be mixed and matched so easily. For example, as drfarr pointed out, Vedic used equal house system along with a few other ancients. BUT, now here is the BUT, generally, the rules for interpreting the chart are ALSO different. SO, you have a matched pair - a house system with a specific method or approach to the chart. You take one from anther and it begins to break down somewhat, like a fish out of water, so to speak.

House systems were later developed as ways to accurately and astronomically reflect what was seen in the heavens and how it was to be divided fairly at extreme latitudes. That's it! It is no more metaphysical than that!

At the risk of being lengthy (too late!) I agree with jmerle179 above who said something to the effect that as a newbie all this was too much and didn't help the skeptics either. I AGREE! Astrologers, as a whole, really need to unite on (and study) the theories and history of a method, rather than argue their preferences of a method and leave it at that. When in doubt, pick a master astrologer (historically), study their method, use their house system, and see if you can prove the results practically.

::Soap box discarded::

Blessings,

Anachiel

P.S. There is also a difference between a sign and a house, it seems obvious but, it is really an overlooked fact. One does not equate to the other. So, in essence, an intercepted house is irrelevant, truly. All the signs and houses are still there. It is simply the matter of proportion that has changed. Oh gawd, now someone will go off and write a book saying the size of a house is the amount of something that you have.....::grumble::

BYJOVE
-first I would like to second what Anachiel has posted above regarding Mars in the 12th house
-secondly, Mars in the 12th house would be modified relative to its potential influences (whether benefic or malefic) due to 2 factors:
1) it's potential influences as to degree of its power would be modified downward because of it being in the cadent 12th house (and thus disconjuct the ascendant)
2) its potential influences as to degree of its power would also be modified downward because the 12 house is the "minimal influence" house for Mars (the 6th house being the "maximal influence" house-not sign, house-for Mars: this according to the ancients who called the 6th house the joy of Mars and the 12th house the sorrow of Mars)

So, Mars in the 12th would be much modified (downward) in its potential influences. This potential could be further modified depending upon whether or not Mars were in sect in the chart (it would be in sect if the nativity were nocturnal and out of sect if the nativity were diurnal) If Mars is in sect then its potential influences would be ramped upward; if out of sect the potential influences would be further ramped downward (in addition to the downward modification of potential influences due to 12th house placement as described in point 1 and point 2 above)

Mars is not in any pitted degree nor azimene degree, but is is in a Bright Degree of Gemini: this puts a benefic spin on the Martial influence in the nativity, and would cut down on the "brooding, bottled up, explosive" attributes to Mars in the 12th, which some authorities have described.

Anachiel said:

I enter this topic cautiously and I am not wearing anything...flammable, that is. So, here goes:
<snip>

OK, on topic: What I find most harmful to astrology, any type of any generation, is that there are a plethora of people with little understanding (or information) as to WHY it exists or came about.

For example, different house systems exist because those astrologers who were also highly skilled mathematicians and astronomers were evolving some then less accurate method of calculation that existed in their day.

Another reason was religious. For example, one reason William Lilly adhered to Regiomontanus was because he was Protestant. The Catholics did not like or use Regio, at the time and generally adhered to Placidus which, is really one of the main reasons Placidus became so popular. ......

House systems were later developed as ways to accurately and astronomically reflect what was seen in the heavens and how it was to be divided fairly at extreme latitudes. That's it! It is no more metaphysical than that!

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I agree in principle. As I said, one of my concerns is that people who want to understand the reasoning behind the way a chart is drawn are all too often not taught the reasoning behind the different systems and *assume* the only two options are Placidus and Equal House.

Historically, you can group most of the systems into one of three groups:

(in date order) Porphyry - Alchabitius - Regiomontanus - Placidus - Koch and neo-Porphyry

Campanus and (looking at the Wikipedia description because is *is* very new) Krusinksi

Equal House and Equal Sign.

Once you realise this you can consider what the basic differences in thinking are that underlie the varying systems and make your choice.

What I find interesting is that that Porphyry/Regiomontanus/Placidus view appears to require constant updating and "tweaking", whereas the Campanus system has remained unchanged certainly from medieval period to the mid 1990s. And of course Equal House/Equal Sign systems can't be altered and remain Equal.

That, and the fact that I feel that Campanus reasoning matches my personal view of horoscopes were my original reasons for choosing it.

Anachiel - yes, that's true, I remember reading a snippet saying that 12th Mars is 'the slayer of enemies', that triumph is implied, but, I thought that could also indicate others' actions toward the native, similar to Mars in the 7th.

Dr. Farr thank you for taking a look at the degrees in Gemini for Mars. I've a day chart and Mars is above the horizon, I'm afraid.

House Systems
Anachiel, I think what you're bringing to the table here is very useful, very informative and far from being a soap-box, this is good discussion! I didn't know that religion divided use of house systems too...please, please continue this...I'd be thrilled to learn more about this. (And just for curiosity's sake ---nothing about a cat, now---- would you mind saying which system(s) for natal? One for strength (Placidus) and whole sign for interps?)

Yes, true, in the past, no difference between sign and place, they were one and the same no? But that Placidus was used for planetary strength and not for interpretation.

Re: House Systems - long post

byjove: oookay, you asked for it:

There were no Tables of Houses that were readily available as they are now. We forget this and take that for granted. So, back-when, when someone published a Table of Houses, it was a big deal because then you didn't have to be a mathematician (per se) to cast a chart. It became convenient to use whatever Table was available!

Now, because Placidus was a Catholic monk, his Tables and his religion became associated.

Later, Johannes Muller (might be off on the spelling there) also published his own Tables (Regiomontanus) making them generally available. But, he was a Protestant (or Protestants came to favor his Tables, sorry not sure which it was) and, therefore no Catholic would generally touch this work out of loyalty (or fear) to their own religion. It simply wasn't "Kosher".

It's odd really since other house division systems existed before either one of these. And, I believe, Regiomontanus predates Placidus by more than a few centuries. It was simply the availability of the Tables and the religious associations of their makers that made them popular (or unpopular depending on how you look at it).

I believe that Porphyry and Alcabitius are actually the older of all the formal house systems but, they never seemed to catch on with the masses. Probably because of the complex mathematics (like all of them, really) and no easily obtainable house tables and no religious or political motif to hang them on. Alcabitius holds up very well at very extreme latitudes unlike some of the other house systems like Porphyry.

Suffice it to say that all house systems are theoretical in nature and all act as kindling for the skeptics fire (i.e. why can't we all get along). One really would have to appreciate some spherical geometry and a good helping of astronomy to understand why any of the 30+ (now) house systems even exist. Yet, with the exception of a few rogues, there is little numerical difference in the house degrees themselves when they are all held side by side in relatively normal latitudes. The argument of houses in Western astrology is similar to the "which Ayanamsha is more valid" in Vedic Astrology.

All through this, the signs and houses are separate and distinct. They are not one nor are they related. The first house is not related to Aries, etc. This is sort of a misconception from the days of the equal houses and Aries point divisions.

In a nutshell, all house systems were attempts to figure out what sign was on the horizon and what sign was directly overhead at a specific time and then...how do we divide the rest of it fairly...especially at higher latitudes where we now need to project back to the ecliptic or equator or whatever.

The last time I checked, Regio was in use by the horary fans, Koch was preferred for predictive stuff, Cosmobiologists like Koch, Placidus was the all around place holder for natal, Meridian is used by Uranian astrologers, Solar when the birth time is unknown, Topocentric was used by the Placidus fans who lived waayyyy up there in latitude (since Placidus is not to polar friendly). Campanus occationally here and there but Campanus can be way off for house size which is why it isn't that popular. Regio was invented to correct the problems Campanus had with that.

Its a big, sticky pool to wade through and no one astrologer has THE answer. We just have traditions and examples. Until we are like the masters of old in having a well rounded understanding of higher math, astronomy and astrology, my humble opinion is to pick a master astrologer (historically), learn their technique/rules and use the house system they preferred until enlightenment is achieved...lol!

Re: House Systems - long post

Anachiel said:

Campanus occationally here and there but Campanus can be way off for house size which is why it isn't that popular. Regio was invented to correct the problems Campanus had with that.

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Actually, historically, Regiomontanus and Campanus were used alongside each other for a longish period. Regiomontanus is a development of Porphyry via Alchabitius, whereas Campanus is based on a different way of dividing the heavens.

Re: House Systems - long post

Anachiel said:

And, I believe, Regiomontanus predates Placidus by more than a few centuries.

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PS - yes it does, but they both belong to the same "family" of house division systems.

It is true that Placidus was promoted by the Hapsburgs and therefore came to be used in the Catholic countries; it was also used by the Catholic Church to try to debunk the Kepler/Galileo solar centred - as opposed to earth centred - view of the planets.

So, effectively, the Protestant astrologers who were using Regiomontanus (as opposed to Campanus) basically did not take up the revised version - Placidus - because it was linked with the Catholic parts of Europe. While those who were using Campanus simply carried on regardless

Meanwhile the astrologers in Catholic countries were "persuaded" to use Placidus regardless of the system they had used before.

I suspect, the fact that the tables were actually published was the real carrot, however - and that's where the system with the wealth of the Hapsburgs and the Catholic Church behind it had a distinct advantage

Wow, great discussion, thanks everyone.

I have been working with many different house systems recently, and I currently feel that equal houses seem to give me the most meaningful, relevant results (amusingly, equal house is the very first system I was introduced to). Though I do think that house systems are something I'll be revisiting and thinking about for a long time.

Thanks Anachiel for the good information, that really adds to the house system understanding and debate on this site.

Anachiel,

At the risk of being lengthy (too late!) I agree with jmerle179 above who said something to the effect that as a newbie all this was too much and didn't help the skeptics either. I AGREE! Astrologers, as a whole, really need to unite on (and study) the theories and history of a method, rather than argue their preferences of a method and leave it at that. When in doubt, pick a master astrologer (historically), study their method, use their house system, and see if you can prove the results practically.

::Soap box discarded::

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[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

I don't feel that new members really come here for a 'history lesson' on astrology, more like they want to know perhaps how or why it works and what it can tell them personally...

Moog said:

Which do you use, and why?

I'm new here, so if I've posted in the wrong place, or if there is already a thread on this subject, please point me to where I should go. Thank you!

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I look at my chart solely in Placidus because in other systems it moves my planets and luminaries around into positions that aren't accurate and make no sense.

When I look at other people's charts, I look at them in the house system they post them in...I don't go back and pull them up in a different one. They know themselves better than I could ever know them, and I figure they must be going with that house system for their chart because that's the one where their chart is actually accurate.

Ruka_5 said:

I look at my chart solely in Placidus because in other systems it moves my planets and luminaries around into positions that aren't accurate and make no sense. [that's great if it works for you. My planets move two whole houses from Equal to placidus and like you - it's simply NOT ME either]

When I look at other people's charts, I look at them in the house system they post them in...I don't go back and pull them up in a different one. They know themselves better than I could ever know them, and I figure they must be going with that house system for their chart because that's the one where their chart is actually accurate.

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well not really, actually, most newcomers here and to astrology,simply use the default on astro.com and don't know any better or even if there are any other houses systems available even

you will find members here *will* interpret in whole sign, Equal, placidus and probably more, and different again in horary.

dr. farr said:

BYJOVE
-first I would like to second what Anachiel has posted above regarding Mars in the 12th house
-secondly, Mars in the 12th house would be modified relative to its potential influences (whether benefic or malefic) due to 2 factors:
1) it's potential influences as to degree of its power would be modified downward because of it being in the cadent 12th house (and thus disconjuct the ascendant)
2) its potential influences as to degree of its power would also be modified downward because the 12 house is the "minimal influence" house for Mars (the 6th house being the "maximal influence" house-not sign, house-for Mars: this according to the ancients who called the 6th house the joy of Mars and the 12th house the sorrow of Mars)

So, Mars in the 12th would be much modified (downward) in its potential influences. This potential could be further modified depending upon whether or not Mars were in sect in the chart (it would be in sect if the nativity were nocturnal and out of sect if the nativity were diurnal) If Mars is in sect then its potential influences would be ramped upward; if out of sect the potential influences would be further ramped downward (in addition to the downward modification of potential influences due to 12th house placement as described in point 1 and point 2 above)

Mars is not in any pitted degree nor azimene degree, but is is in a Bright Degree of Gemini: this puts a benefic spin on the Martial influence in the nativity, and would cut down on the "brooding, bottled up, explosive" attributes to Mars in the 12th, which some authorities have described.

Click to expand...

thank you for that dr.farr, this leads me to ask you whether, when using Whole Sign houses, if Mars was in the twelfth Sign House at 28 degrees and therefore only two degrees away from the ascendant Sign House would Mars' position be stronger due to being so close to the ascendant Sign House? Or, in order to gain any increased influence, however slight, would Mars require placement within two degrees of the actual ascendant within the ascendant Sign house?

Many of the oldtime astrologers believed that a planet in the last couple degrees of a sign had its influence "translated" into the next sign-in this case-following that way of thinking-Mars influence would be "translated" into the first house (I myself do not follow this way of thinking-so, for me, Mars being a couple degrees away from the ascending sign would NOT indicate any increase of the martial influence; had Mars been in the same sign as the ascending degree, and 2 or 3 degrees away from the ascending degree, I would believe that the Mars influence would be enhanced)

jupiterasc,

thank you for that dr.farr, this leads me to ask you whether, when using Whole Sign houses, if Mars was in the twelfth Sign House at 28 degrees and therefore only two degrees away from the ascendant Sign House would Mars' position be stronger due to being so close to the ascendant Sign House? Or, in order to gain any increased influence, however slight, would Mars require placement within two degrees of the actual ascendant within the ascendant Sign house?

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I look at max 5' orb going anti clockwise

Planets conjunct a house cusp
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033
Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/inhouses.html

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14887

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125412&postcount=4

Ptolemy says the influence of the house begins to be felt 5° before the actual cusp.
http://www.astrologycom.com/houses.html

“Astrologers have seen a body influencing the house it is about to enter, time and time again. All theorizing aside, the planet casting its shadow ahead works. I can speak from personal experience, as well as reading ancient texts. If you discover this as true, then the next question may be, "Just how close must a body be to a cusp before it begins to be felt in the neighboring house?"
I've seen some authors say 3 degrees. I've seen some that give 5 degrees. I have seen some that even give 8 degrees. And there may be other variations.” http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/90c9f417-5086-4ff0-b31f-c904fe99baca