Aren't the planets really retrograding?

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northernstar

Well-known member
As a newborn astrology learner, there is so much new information I have come across the past year. One of them is the fact that people into astrology talk about planets retrograding.

I enthusiastically talked to my dad about all the stuff that I've learned, and i mentioned for him that the rough aspects we encounter by transits "hit" us several times because the planets go backwards and return, crossing the same point more than once.. He gave me a baffled look and asked 'are you sure?', and so I decided to check this further.

I found this note at NASA's pages (and found similar explanations at other sites):
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question46.html

From what I can see here, the planets are not actually retrograding.. The backwards motion is just apparent..?

SO: howcome the ephemerises list planets' motion as going back and forth at certain degrees....?

I truly don't get this. Hope someone could enlighten me here..

Thanks,
Northernstar
 
hebrewlaborer

hebrewlaborer

Account Closed
northernstar said:
As a newborn astrology learner, there is so much new information I have come across the past year. One of them is the fact that people into astrology talk about planets retrograding.

I enthusiastically talked to my dad about all the stuff that I've learned, and i mentioned for him that the rough aspects we encounter by transits "hit" us several times because the planets go backwards and return, crossing the same point more than once.. He gave me a baffled look and asked 'are you sure?', and so I decided to check this further.

I found this note at NASA's pages (and found similar explanations at other sites):
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question46.html

From what I can see here, the planets are not actually retrograding.. The backwards motion is just apparent..?

SO: howcome the ephemerises list planets' motion as going back and forth at certain degrees....?

I truly don't get this. Hope someone could enlighten me here..

Thanks,
Northernstar
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert on the science behind it so maybe someone else can help but a lot of it has to do with our view/perspective of the planets from our position on the earth. The planets do appear to be retrograding at certain times of the year from our perspective on earth, and that's why the retrogrades have an effect upon us. I don't think they actually are moving backwards but it's to do with the elliptical path and the distance of the planets from the sun.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Astrology deals with both subjective an objective reality. For example, the Zodiac is measured along Earth's orbital plane, which is called the "Ecliptic". The definition of the Ecliptic is the "apparent" path of the Sun as it moves around the Earth, and that "appearance" is "real" subjectively (how things appear from your own vantage point). Objectivity involves an overview, and objectively, the Earth is orbiting the Sun. The "Sunrise" is the subjective view of Earth's objective rotation, which causes the horizon to move below the Sun. Same with Retrograde movement: Objectively, the planets don't reverse course on their orbits around the Sun; but, viewing from Earth, which is also orbiting the Sun, it appears they do, which is real on the subjective level. So, if there's no such thing as Retrograde movement of the planets, then there's no such thing as "Sunrise", either. :biggrin:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
northernstar said:
As a newborn astrology learner, there is so much new information I have come across the past year.
One of them is the fact that people into astrology talk about planets retrograding.

I enthusiastically talked to my dad about all the stuff that I've learned
and i mentioned for him that the rough aspects we encounter by transits "hit" us several times
because the planets go backwards and return, crossing the same point more than once..
He gave me a baffled look and asked 'are you sure?'
and so I decided to check this further.

I found this note at NASA's pages
(and found similar explanations at other sites):
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question46.html

From what I can see here, the planets are not actually retrograding..
The backwards motion is just apparent..?

SO: howcome the ephemerises list planets' motion as going back and forth at certain degrees....?

I truly don't get this. Hope someone could enlighten me here..

Thanks,
Northernstar
Click to expand...
It's very simple :smile:
Consider the following optical illusions:
when aboard a stationary train
when a train on an adjacent line pulls out of the station
then
one experiences an optical illusion
i.e.
the stationary train is apparently moving backwards

similarly with planets temporarily "changing speed relative to planet earth"
the ephemeris lists the APPARENT location of the planet
as the planet APPARENTLY retrogrades
 
D

david starling

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
It's very simple :smile:
Consider the following optical illusions:
when aboard a stationary train
when a train on an adjacent line pulls out of the station
then
one experiences an optical illusion
i.e.
the stationary train is apparently moving backwards

similarly with planets temporarily "changing speed relative to planet earth"
the ephemeris lists the APPARENT location of the planet
as the planet APPARENTLY retrogrades
Click to expand...

Subjectively, that train IS really moving backwards, from that particular, self-located vantage point. All movement is relative to what is being held as the fixed point of view. Heliocentrically, the Earth is orbiting the Sun. We consider that to be objective reality. But, Geocentrically, the Sun is orbiting the Earth, which is considered to be a subjective "illusion". Just like the Sun, which subjectively rises in the East, moves across the sky, and sets in the West--objectively, that's an "illusion" caused by Earth's rotation as viewed from a location on the Earth itself. Two versions of "what's real", one subjective, the other, objective. Optical illusion that gets me is the way spokes on a wheel moving forward, appear to be moving backward! That's a trick of the light.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
No question (in my mind) that things which are "illusions" vis a vis objective reality, can be very real symbolically...
 
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david starling

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
No question (in my mind) that things which are "illusions" vis a vis objective reality, can be very real symbolically...
Click to expand...

Most of us live a very subjective life, in a very subjective version of reality. As surely as the Sun will "rise" tomorrow! :lol:
 
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N

northernstar

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
It's very simple :smile:
Consider the following optical illusions:
when aboard a stationary train
when a train on an adjacent line pulls out of the station
then
one experiences an optical illusion
i.e.
the stationary train is apparently moving backwards

similarly with planets temporarily "changing speed relative to planet earth"
the ephemeris lists the APPARENT location of the planet
as the planet APPARENTLY retrogrades
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks a lot for your answers!! :)

I understand the optical illusion-explanation. What I find harder to swallow is the fact that the ephemeris list the APPARENT location of the planets as they appear to move backwards. I always believed the degrees listed were hard facts.

For instance, Pluto is now crossing my DC, was 0 degrees March 11th, at 19 degrees Cap, and moving on. In May/june it apparently is retrograding, exactly hitting my DC once again. And I can't really grasp the fact that the degrees listed are not the "true" degrees of the planets' orbit, but rather partly "corrected" by our subjective view of the planets' orbits..

I guess I just have to accept that this is how it is.. (Although I kind of feel relieved that Pluto is not actually hitting my DC thrice after all?? Is that a sound argument?):unsure:;)
 
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david starling

Well-known member
northernstar said:
Ok, thanks a lot for your answers!! :)

I understand the optical illusion-explanation. What I find harder to swallow is the fact that the ephemeris list the APPARENT location of the planets as they appear to move backwards. I always believed the degrees listed were hard facts.

For instance, Pluto is now crossing my DC, was 0 degrees March 11th, at 19 degrees Cap, and moving on. In May/june it apparently is retrograding, exactly hitting my DC once again. And I can't really grasp the fact that the degrees listed are not the "true" degrees of the planets' orbit, but rather partly "corrected" by our subjective view of the planets' orbits..

I guess I just have to accept that this is how it is.. (Although I kind of feel relieved that Pluto is not actually hitting my DC thrice after all?? Is that a sound argument?):unsure:;)
Click to expand...

ALL measurements are contingent on the frame of reference of the coordinate system in use. And, each coordinate system has its own internal integrity. One is not more "true" or "real" than another. The ephemeris is correct within the context of the Geocentric coordinate system. So, Pluto WILL be Conjunct your Dsc as it Transits with both Direct and Retrograde-movement when it's position is located within that Astrological framework. Nothing unusual about it--Pluto spends about half it's Transiting time moving Retrograde, then "Correcting" and returning to where it was when it went Retrograde.
 
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F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
northernstar said:
Ok, thansk for the facts on Pluto.. It still didn't make my origianl question any clearer ;)
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Hi Northernstar,
If you had posted your query regarding Pluto in the MODERN Astrology section, some replies you have recived would not have been allowed.:wink:
As you didn't, I feel that you are entitled to a reply by those of us who do consider Pluto a major part of astro. symbolism.

I can't see from the replies an answer to your query, quote:
I understand the optical illusion-explanation. What I find harder to swallow is the fact that the ephemeris list the APPARENT location of the planets as they appear to move backwards. I always believed the degrees listed were hard facts.


You are rightly querying one of the most subtle effects of astrological interpretation.
Now that you understand that planets do not go backwards, as well as the theory behind retrogradation, does it make the 'optical illusion' easier to perceive?
If you remember that astrology is based upon and practised from the view of planets as seen from Earth, their background cloth of the zodiac degrees places them according to Earth's own position at any given time. This is what the ephemeris shows. The outer planets spend more time retrograde than direct because of their distance from the sun that creates the phenomenon, yet every planet undergoes retrograde motion according to its speed of motion in relationship to that of Earth. (Thinking of runners in the lanes on a circular track can help.:smile:)

Which means...?
That we should not fear Pluto's power in our charts after all?
Click to expand...

The 'fear' towards Pluto's meaning in a chart depends upon the person's idea towards what its reputation signifies. Within a normal life span no one gets by without it affecting chart positions in one way or another. One man's meat is the other man's poison, as the saying goes. Personally, I believe that Pluto in its modern rulership of Scorpio goes beyond the meaning of Mars' rulership of the same sign.

For instance, Pluto is now crossing my DC, was 0 degrees March 11th, at 19 degrees Cap, and moving on. In May/june it apparently is retrograding, exactly hitting my DC once again. ..................
I kind of feel relieved that Pluto is not actually hitting my DC thrice after all?? (Is that a sound argument?)
Click to expand...

You are lucky that it actually stations (direct/retrograde) on 19* Capricorn, meaning it doesn't go through 2 separate passes of the degree! It crosses 19* Cap. directly again in Jan. 2018, is in the retrograde position from July-Sept., and makes its final direct pass towards the end of 2018.
You could say that the retrograde position indicates a period of introspection, or, 'how am I feeling about this situation that is occuring?'
A first pass is usually indicative of 'the situation at hand', the first retrograde period of either dismissing or acknowledging its existence. Second direct motion brings about a further development of the 1st stage, which through retrograde motion also has to be either dismissed or acknowledged. The final pass sees the result of the preceeding period in its totality. Pluto will bring about a time of transition into a future because it gets rid of that which is no longer of a necessity to it.

Many say that they can feel the effect of a Pluto transit up to 5* degrees before it actually occurs. Many don't use and consider the effect of other major transits and progressions which may offer the real reasons towards forthcoming change.
1-1.30* degrees applying and separating from exactitude is the usual norm for a transit. This would suggest that Pluto's influence upon a Desc. on 19* was occuring whilst still in the 6th house, which it then 'carries' into the 7th house.

Hope this may make things a little clearer for you.:smile:
 
wilsontc

wilsontc

Staff member
Do NOT debate whether or not Pluto's a planet here, to All

All,

Please do NOT debate whether or not Pluto is an astrological planet on this thread. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Instead, focus on the thread topic: retrograde planets.

Back on topic,

Tim
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Re: Do NOT debate whether or not Pluto's a planet here, to All

wilsontc said:
All,

Please do NOT debate whether or not Pluto is an astrological planet on this thread. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Instead, focus on the thread topic: retrograde planets.

Back on topic,

Tim
Click to expand...

I admit to being amused by the constant reference to Pluto's small size and Astronomical demotio:rightful:n to less than full Planetary status, but I agree it was off-Thread. That said, it's interesting that so many younger Astrologers seem to be so focused on Pluto's Transits as a force to be reckoned with. Any opinions on the Effect of Retrograde Pluto as opposed to Pluto Direct? For example Mercury in Direct-motion is good for communication and contractual agreements, and Mercury-retrograde is bad for that. What are Pluto's good and bad effects when Direct, Stationary, and Retrograde?
 
L

Lin

Well-known member
Again, the positions are from the view of the EARTH. So as we pass the planet it appears to be going backward. All the planets are separately moving in their orbits. But the earth moves one degree a day, as does the Sun....which, of course, is not moving, but we SAY it moves because we are looking at it from the perspective of the earth.

Anyway, if you build a "model" with ...let's say....fruit....it might be easier to picture.

WE EXPERIENCE the planetary "energy" as though something has stopped or receded. That is the odd thing. We really DO experience this backward motion as we pull away from the planet.

But don't worry about it. Just know that is actually a "thing" - it actually matters when a planet is retrograde and is in a pattern with one of YOUR natal planets.
LIN
 
N

northernstar

Well-known member
Re: Do NOT debate whether or not Pluto's a planet here, to All

david starling said:
I admit to being amused by the constant reference to Pluto's small size and Astronomical demotio:rightful:n to less than full Planetary status, but I agree it was off-Thread. That said, it's interesting that so many younger Astrologers seem to be so focused on Pluto's Transits as a force to be reckoned with. Any opinions on the Effect of Retrograde Pluto as opposed to Pluto Direct? For example Mercury in Direct-motion is good for communication and contractual agreements, and Mercury-retrograde is bad for that. What are Pluto's good and bad effects when Direct, Stationary, and Retrograde?
Click to expand...

I am curious about the same thing (the effect of retrograde Pluto). As I wrote to begin with; I don't have much (ie sufficiently long) experience with astrology, thus I haven't lived long enough with this knowledge in mind to have noticed the big differences w regard to direct/retrograde pluto. But from what I believe/have read, retrograde pluto loosens its ties on the person going through a pluto transit, "pausing" all the plutonian energy?

I have, however, learnt what direct pluto might do. And it was kind of soothing to get an explanation to what went on in my life, and why, as I started reading about it.Not least, knowing it should pass... :) It all fitted nicely to what happened in and around me at the time.

anyone?
 
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L

Lin

Well-known member
Re: Do NOT debate whether or not Pluto's a planet here, to All

Remember, that Pluto is not all "alone" in her "space." There are many other "bodies" that makeup her gravitational mass.

Anyway, Pluto is so powerful.....it really is....that it rules nuclear energy....and it rules "pregnancy" - generation.
So it rules generation, degeneration and regeneration. Metamorphosis.

No matter what the scientists "call it."
LIN
 
unique_astrology

unique_astrology

Well-known member
A current (today) example of Pluto on a chart's angle.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=771674&postcount=301

wVbWPmA.gif
 
spock

spock

Well-known member
northernstar said:
I found this note at NASA's pages (and found similar explanations at other sites):
https://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question46.html

From what I can see here, the planets are not actually retrograding.. The backwards motion is just apparent..?
Click to expand...
That's what retrogradation means, apparent backwards movement. Zodiacal position is not a place but a direction from the earth. Any planet that's the same direction from the earth that the Sun is on the first day of spring is at the beginning of Aries. Retrogradation occurs when the earth passes Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, etc., at which time the other planet, as seen from the earth, moves backward against the starry background. It's not moving backward in its own orbit, but it is "moving" backward in terms of its direction from the earth. Retrogradation occurs with Mercury and Venus when the planet passes earth while both are on the same side of the Sun at which time the planet, again as seen from the earth, moves backward against the starry background.
 
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