Unaspected sun in 12th, rising sign

If someone has an unaspected sun that's in the twelfth house, but in the same sign as their ascendant, how would you interpret that, in terms of sun/self/what they need/growth?

I've seen a chart like that recently (sun/rising sign is Sagittarius). The native (who I only know slightly) strikes me as a very outgoing, cheerful, rather happy-go-lucky sort of person--very Sagittarian, that--but considering that her sun is unaspected and in the "hidden" twelfth, I'm wondering what the implications are. If it weren't for Sagittarius also being her rising sign, I would think, based on that unaspected sun, that what Sagittarius means for her is very deeply personal and not connected to the outside world. Could the same sign be both deeply personal, not connected to the outside world (unaspected sun in H12), and the face you meet the world with (ascendant)?

Can you post a chart?

But just off the top of my head.

1. A tenet of modern astrology is that every planet is aspected in some fashion. If we don't find the majors, we look to the minors. (Quintiles, septiles, noviles, &c) Books by David Cochrane and David Hamblin may be helpful. Consider also declination (parallels, counter-parallels) and antiscia, if any.

2. However, a planet without clear major aspects is sort of like a person without much socialization. Especially if an out-of-bounds planet is involved, the person may be really unique and unattuned to social opinion. If the planet conjuncts an angle, that helps to give it an identity of sorts.

3. I'd also see what the house cusp ruler (lord, or planet ruling the sign Sagittarius-Jupiter) is up to. A well-situated Jupiter may be taking a hand.

4. I don't think 12th house people are necessarily introverted. Think of someone like Joe Biden, and probably Hillary Clinton (her best-guess rectified chart.) To be successful in this "house of self-undoing," they do seem to benefit from identifying with (sun) a cause or group of people bigger than themselves. My daughter has a 12th house sun, and while she needs her privacy at times, she's always had a really good group of friends, a good sense of humour, and works as a teacher.

A strong 12th-6th axis seems to work best with a lot of altruism and dedication to others above self.

5. Finally, I use Placidus normally, but I do know of charts for celebrities that seem to work best as whole signs. Possibly the 12th house sun moves to the 11th, for example, with a change of house system.

I don't have all the data to recast the chart, let alone permission to post it. That unaspected twelfth house sun, in the same sign as the ascendant, really stood out for me, though.

As far as I could tell, the sun was completely unaspected. That includes no quincunxes, but I'm not entirely sure about all the other minor ones. I haven't seen the declinations, so can't say about that.

I didn't mean to say I thought a twelfth house sun person would necessarily be introverted--rather, my thought was that with an unaspected sun, there would be something about the person, at the core, that is very deeply private for them and doesn't surface. The twelfth house placement might serve to emphasize that this is private for them, not necessarily accessible. If someone had an unaspected sun in the twelfth and a different rising sign, I would think their sun sign was the part that wouldn't show, would be on a very deep and private level for them. But with the rising sign being the same, they clearly show characteristics of that sign--in this case, Sagittarius. The Sagittarian side is definitely accessible to this person, and a clear part of the surface persona.

But, this:

waybread said:

2. However, a planet without clear major aspects is sort of like a person without much socialization. Especially if an out-of-bounds planet is involved, the person may be really unique and unattuned to social opinion. If the planet conjuncts an angle, that helps to give it an identity of sorts.

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Yes, I get the sense that this is a very unique person. Definitely someone who's willing to live outside the norms. Think alternative approach to relationships, unique job, unusual living situation, that kind of thing. And that's just what I've picked up on superficial acquaintance.

What's her job? And, her MH?

david starling said:

What's her job?

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Teaching, but not in the usual schoolteacher sense.

david starling said:

And, her MH?

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Do you mean MC? I don't recall for sure. Either Virgo or Libra, I don't remember which.

Yes, I meant the MC. I use it regarding how one presents oneself publicly, and, how one relates to society in general.

Osamenor said:

I don't have all the data to recast the chart, let alone permission to post it.


That unaspected
twelfth house sun
in the same sign as the ascendant,
really stood out for me, though.

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Consider using WHOLE SIGN HOUSES

any Sun in same sign as ascendant
is a first house sun when using WHOLE SIGN HOUSES

Osamenor, one other thing you might consider are the essential dignities. A sun that seems to lack power might not be the strong point in the chart. It might be Jupiter. In modern natal chart interpretation I pretty much stick with the domiciles; but if you wanted a more traditional approach, you could run through the table of essential dignities, and also look for mutual reception. (For example, the sun in Sagittarius, with Jupiter in Leo.)

A moon in Cancer, for example, is a huge powerhouse in anybody's chart. Possibly this woman has alternative strengths.

But re: my previous post, I'm not so sure that a 12th house sun is so distinctly private. A number of prominent politicians have this placement, so I think the sun here can relate to one or more of the other meanings of the 12th house.

In this house of "self-undoing" I think the sun (identity, even ego) can seem out-of-place, but then a successful politician's gift may come from erasing that ego and identifying with a constituency or cause bigger than herself. There's also mysticism, and working for people who are shut-in in some way (hospitals, prisons, nursing homes.) In fact, there's an extensive list of 12th house rulerships, but in a nativity with the sun in question, these seem like the main ones.

While I think 12th house people enjoy working behind the scenes, I think folks with the sun in the 8th house have a more deep-seated need for privacy. (With Saturn in my 12th house in reception with Mercury, editing-- making other people's writing look good-- was a job I really enjoyed, for example.)

If this lady is involved in teaching (of some description) she may have an altruistic, service-orientation towards her work.)

Anyway, it's an interesting problem, thanks.

waybread said:

Osamenor, one other thing you might consider are the essential dignities. A sun that seems to lack power might not be the strong point in the chart. It might be Jupiter. In modern natal chart interpretation I pretty much stick with the domiciles; but if you wanted a more traditional approach, you could run through the table of essential dignities, and also look for mutual reception. (For example, the sun in Sagittarius, with Jupiter in Leo.)

A moon in Cancer, for example, is a huge powerhouse in anybody's chart. Possibly this woman has alternative strengths.

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Maybe, although by traditional standards, not her moon (that's Capricorn).

waybread said:

But re: my previous post, I'm not so sure that a 12th house sun is so distinctly private. A number of prominent politicians have this placement, so I think the sun here can relate to one or more of the other meanings of the 12th house.

In this house of "self-undoing" I think the sun (identity, even ego) can seem out-of-place, but then a successful politician's gift may come from erasing that ego and identifying with a constituency or cause bigger than herself. There's also mysticism, and working for people who are shut-in in some way (hospitals, prisons, nursing homes.) In fact, there's an extensive list of 12th house rulerships, but in a nativity with the sun in question, these seem like the main ones.

While I think 12th house people enjoy working behind the scenes, I think folks with the sun in the 8th house have a more deep-seated need for privacy. (With Saturn in my 12th house in reception with Mercury, editing-- making other people's writing look good-- was a job I really enjoyed, for example.)

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I've had an astrology teacher say that if the seventh house ruler is in the twelfth, the native will always need some privacy and some space of their own in a relationship. While that's a specific case of house rulership, it does, to my mind, indicate a connection between twelfth house and private, personal space.

The twelfth house is a real paradox. It's on the "me" side of the chart, so it's about self, but being cadent, it's also a house that--according to that same astrology teacher--requires others in order to manifest. I think that fits your description of the twelfth house need to identify with something greater than self. Making the personal self all about the collective self, in a way.

waybread said:

If this lady is involved in teaching (of some description) she may have an altruistic, service-orientation towards her work.)

Anyway, it's an interesting problem, thanks.

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Possibly. But here's another interesting chart factor: most of the planets are in Sagittarius or Capricorn, and except for the sun, all of those Sag/Cap placements are in the first house. So there is a very strong emphasis on self here. If I were ignoring the sun, I would say this is someone who needs pretty much everything about their life to be by and for their self. Even their altruism would be primarily about serving their own growth. If they help others at the same time, great, but in the big picture of their life, the help they give others is a side benefit, not the main purpose.

Not that people with that kind of "me" cluster in their charts are necessarily selfish. Far from it. Rosa Parks also had a first house emphasis, and she did plenty for the greater good. But that first house emphasis tells us why she did it: it was really for herself.

But then put the twelfth house sun in the picture, and we have some suggestion that the person needs others in their big picture--but may have a hard time reaching them for that purpose, with the sun being unaspected. However, they reach out to the world through the same sign (ascendant).

Osamenor said:

Maybe, although by traditional standards, not her moon (that's Capricorn).

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OK, but it could be another domiciled planet or two, or Jupiter.

I've had an astrology teacher say that if the seventh house ruler is in the twelfth, the native will always need some privacy and some space of their own in a relationship. While that's a specific case of house rulership, it does, to my mind, indicate a connection between twelfth house and private, personal space.

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OK. I think that there are several planetary placements that give people who need privacy and space in a relationship. Then a particular planet in the 12th will have its own meaning.

The twelfth house is a real paradox. It's on the "me" side of the chart, so it's about self, but being cadent, it's also a house that--according to that same astrology teacher--requires others in order to manifest. I think that fits your description of the twelfth house need to identify with something greater than self. Making the personal self all about the collective self, in a way.

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I haven't come across the idea that the eastern hemisphere is the "me" side of the chart. Perhaps it extends the meaning of the ascendant to the entire hemisphere, which would put the entire western hemisphere in the camp of the descendant. I have come across the view that the eastern hemisphere is the active side of the chart, while the western hemisphere is the passive, adaptive side.

Which I think shows a jarring of traditional and modern astrology. The house meanings have evolved over the centuries, but their roots are deeply in a pre-modern past.

Possibly. But here's another interesting chart factor: most of the planets are in Sagittarius or Capricorn, and except for the sun, all of those Sag/Cap placements are in the first house. So there is a very strong emphasis on self here. If I were ignoring the sun, I would say this is someone who needs pretty much everything about their life to be by and for their self. Even their altruism would be primarily about serving their own growth. If they help others at the same time, great, but in the big picture of their life, the help they give others is a side benefit, not the main purpose.

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I think the successful 12th house sun politicians have learned that if they give out a lot of altruism, it boomerangs back with the recognition they enjoy.

Not that people with that kind of "me" cluster in their charts are necessarily selfish. Far from it. Rosa Parks also had a first house emphasis, and she did plenty for the greater good. But that first house emphasis tells us why she did it: it was really for herself.

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Yes, but..... I think Parks was also willing to inspire other people. She had a strong service orientation that pre-dated the Montgomery bus incident. Ideally, the strong first house person's strong personality becomes a positive model for others. It may give her confidence to undertake activities that frighten others.

But then put the twelfth house sun in the picture, and we have some suggestion that the person needs others in their big picture--but may have a hard time reaching them for that purpose, with the sun being unaspected. However, they reach out to the world through the same sign (ascendant).

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I think 12th house suns enjoy working behind the scenes. As you know, many 12th house suns will have the ascendant in the next sign, so being a double-Sagittarian would give more weight to Jupiter in the chart.

Uh, why are you ignoring the MC and its Aspects?

david starling said:

Uh, why are you ignoring the MC and its Aspects?

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I don't have that information for this chart. I've only seen it once, I don't have the data to recast it, and I don't remember which of two signs the MC was in.

Further, David, the MC says something about the person's vocation in life and public image. It's what people who don't know you personally know about you by reputation. Unless someone has a big planetary focus around the MC, it's probably not going to say much about an unaspected 12th house sun.

Osamenor said:

I don't have that information for this chart. I've only seen it once, I don't have the data to recast it, and I don't remember which of two signs the MC was in.

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How does she present herself in public? Which of the two signs is she most like, in that regard? Is it possible that the Sun itself is Aspecting her MC?

david starling said:

How does she present herself in public? Which of the two signs is she most like, in that regard?

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I don't know her in the right context to be able to say. We're acquaintances, but I only know her in the context of the one group/activity we've met in. I don't know how she presents herself outside of that.

Which of the two signs was she more like, would you say, in that particular public context?

david starling said:

Which of the two signs was she more like, would you say, in that particular public context?

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Neither. I see Sagittarius more.

It's really not a public context. We're talking small group activity here.

To have a sense of her MC "personality," I would have to be someone who doesn't know her at all but knows of her. I'm not.

Osamenor said:

Neither. I see Sagittarius more.

It's really not a public context. We're talking small group activity here.

To have a sense of her MC "personality," I would have to be someone who doesn't know her at all but knows of her. I'm not.

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I disagree. You didn't really "know" her personally, only the way she presented herself. But, I can see where Sun and Asc in Sagittarius could be so apparent to you. Did you "guess her sign"?

David, with Sagittarius rising, there's a decent chance that the MC would be in Virgo. In whole signs, regardless of the MC location, the 10th house and its cusp would be Virgo.