Intercepted and Duplicated signs

waybread said:

......If so, a soul might choose to incarnate in such a way that her horoscope would have intercepted houses: not due to past-life misuse of energies, but in order to choose the best learning, growing, and creating experiences at this time.

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Ok Waybread...........I subscribe to karma/dharma, intuiting that the Soul is moralistic (though the Universe is probably not)..........but learning, growing and creating experiences fits in fine with that for me..........since Intercepted Signs could still be a mechanism for learning about the required attitude adjustment(s) of Duplicated Houses.

EJ

flea said:

I also have an idea that only the issues we need to deal with from past lives are shown in our chart... the things we are here to do now to release with kindness. And also to learn forgiveness for ourselves, and with that a stronger dedication to live in balance and harmony with all. I also have the feeling we are going through a great experience where we can heal many aspects of our holographic selves (the whole mind soul body spirit thing in all dimensions and levels), part of the changing of the age.FleaXXX

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I'm with you, flea, and you've put that so well.

I hear a lot of `taskiness' (prob not a real word...) coming from people (not here, necessarily, but out there in the world) in relation to "having to learn my lessons, clear my karma so I won't have to come back again." I don't see it that way.

I like to think of our collective task here on earth at present as a bit like a group of 5 house-mates cleaning their rented house the morning after a party. They get up in the morning, look at the chaos - broken bottles on the front lawn, vomit in the bathroom sink, kitchen floor awash in spilled drink and food, food ground into the carpet in the living room - and then agree on assigned tasks. They clean it up together and as a team. Not one of the house-mates is necessarily personally responsible for the mess, but they've agreed to be responsible for cleaning it up. Josh is strong and athletic, so he gets some garbage bags and gathers the empties; Heath has a strong stomach and doesn't mind cleaning the toilet and bathroom; Crissi is a details person, so she's agreed to be responsible for the floors. And so the job gets done.

As I see it, we have been born as a collective, each bringing with us something we are needing to transform - eg. a need to becoming more ego-centred, and less other-centred, or vice versa; a need to move beyond fear and control; a need to take some risks in relationships; etc. As each of us work through our `stuff', gradually the `house' is cleaned. We have our whole lives in which to do this; it is not a competition. The potential for the planet is huge beyond imagining.

Yes Raven I move towards a feeling of collective. All equal no matter what experience we chose to have here. And that any healing we do is not separate but instrinsicly linked to all other beings, nature animals elements here. We heal ourselves we heal our world.

There has also been a thinkyness mentioned here. My experience has brought me an understanding that education favours concrete thought, and does not know how to handle intuitive perception. Art and creativity are even taught as task based skills, rather than the quietness of that space where inspiration flows.

Anyway my point is many of us have been affirmed in our thinking processes, and made to feel stupid when we have intuitive thought, or at least challenged on it. For me the witch buring was a misguided attempt at removing intuitive thinkers from society. It was scary for some people not knowing or trusting where certain information came from.

Dr Brain Weiss....many lives many masters....is a book about a sceptic doctor, who started to come across people's past life memory in therapy.... and the experience convinced him. I have some detached memories from another time, that kind of got lodged in this life and confused me for a while. Really detailed memories and images of japanese timber houses shoji screens, and gardens etc. They were so real to me I manufactured a belief that my dad had a model japanese house when I was a little kid.

As an aside .....christianity held reincarnation beleifs until I think the nicean creed, anyway it was held for a few hundred years after Christ.

I do also confer with Waybred regarding the non maralism of the universe. It does not judge it just reacts to whatever impulse is created. Then again I dont see misuse as a moralistic word either. To me it opens up the possibility of a closer walk with the harmony of the cosmos. Which I think is what we are all working towards.... to understand how to live in balance with all. Misuse relates to an action that created imbalance and so teaches us.

FleaXXX

flea said:

Yes Raven I move towards a feeling of collective..............I do also confer with Waybred regarding the non moralism of the universe. It does not judge it just reacts to whatever impulse is created..........Then again I dont see misuse as a moralistic word either. To me it opens up the possibility of a closer walk with the harmony of the cosmos. Which I think is what we are all working towards.... to understand how to live in balance with all. Misuse relates to an action that created imbalance and so teaches us.

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I agree with all of this...............In fact, I disagree with nothing that has been said on this thread so far...........It all fits comfortably with my own views/beliefs............Particularly as I do not see Karma as a "burden", but merely a mechanism for Souls to attract the people and experiences needed to learn their lessons in this lifetime.........For me, "karmic debt" means only that each Soul owes it to Itself to continue attending classes until it masters the subject(s) it happens to be "studying".

Personally, I have absolutely no hang-ups with the word "misuse" - defined in my dictionary as "to use for the wrong purpose"...............It means exactly what I intended to say..........However, one of my astrological lessons in this lifetime is to learn that the use of words which others find emotive/heavy can divert attention from the actual point being made.......(Meanwhile though, it's a cross I have to bear .............Maybe it's my Interceptions at work).

EJ

EJ, none of my own comments are directed at you. My own last post was an attempt to lift the discussion out of the details which sometimes threads get weighed down by. And I wanted to comment diretly on what flea had said in a previous post.

flea, I read the Brian Weiss book many years ago, and found it fascinating. My own son had a similar reaction to you to (what appears to me) to be an immediate last life in Japan - even if this `last life' was several centuries ago. As a small child - say, ages 5-11 or so, he talked endlessly about Japan and what life was like there. At 18 he had an opportunity to visit Japan, and he came home deeply depressed and disillusioned, because the country had changed (from his memories) and was just like the westernised cities he was familiar with. He couldn't talk about his trip for around 6 weeks, so distressed was he. He brought home around 5-6 rolls of film (this was before digital photography) and he'd taken a large number of pictures of empty blocks of land `where temples used to be'. In a way, his experience helped him to become more grounded in this lifetime, with less of the longing to be in Japan.

And I also like what waybread said re the non-judgemental nature of the universe. We are the judges, and we tend to be very hard on ourselves in the first instance. Things happen in our lives, and we react with: `I haven't deserved this!' Well, maybe not, but perhaps what happens is one of those opportunities that the universe throws our way, and to face our challenges creatively can have a flow-on effect in the world we live in..

R4VEN said:

EJ, none of my own comments are directed at you...

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I know...................the "cross" is the source of my frustration.......not the comments on this thread.

EJ:39:

waybread said:

I work a lot with "accidental" house cusp rulers. I. e., If someone has Virgo on the cusp of her 10th house, then Mercury rules her 10th house. I would then look at the placement of her Mercury, by its house and aspects, to say something about her career and public image.

Dutch astrologer Karen Hamaker-Zondag put it this way: "The house over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands." So even if this person has planets in the 10th house, the cusp ruler (lord) will still say a lot about her ideal career, according to its own house and aspects.

Suppose this person's Mercury is well-aspected in the 5th house. This might be a good position for a teacher (in the house of children) or someone engaged in a recreation/leisure kind of profession like working at a resort or casino.

OK--so if you have an intercepted house pair (let's say, Capricorn and Cancer, spanned by Sag/Aquarius, and Gemini/Leo, respectively, then the person will be missing her full complement of house cusp rulers. No Saturn for Capricorn, or Moon for Cancer. The person obviously still has Saturn and the Moon in her chart, but they aren't working as house cusp rulers, which makes them less powerful.

By the same token, if someone has one sign covering two house cusps then that sign's planetary ruler becomes extra powerful, because it's "doing" for multiple functions. I think this is especially important with a 12th house + first house duplication, because the 1st house cusp ruler is the chart ruler, anyway.

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I was trying to say the same thing before, so I definitely agree

And the situation you describe, where a planet ruling an intercepted sign has no house to rule over... I like to describe that house as being 'exiled' in wherever house it resides. I think that term gives the required dramatic twist to stand there with traditional astrological terms like malefic, benefic, peregrine, and cazimi.

Mr EJ53 sir, you deserve an entirely separate post!

I really like the way this thread has developed. So you're thinking, if I have understood is as follows:

1) The intercepted signs show frustration as I said before, but this is because some karmic misgivings. A kind of cosmic imposed probation, as if the sign was a hockey player who got into a ruckus and was sent to the sin bin.

2) The sign was intercepted because of the duplicated signs, which show that one aspect/ attitude of the horoscope is dominating where it shouldn't. In particular the earlier duplicating sign will be the one that causes problems for the latter, because it will overspill in to the next house without any break of sign.

Is that right?

If so then these are some thoughts:

I find it difficult to know where the problems are- it would be a kind of chicken and egg situation. Here is an illustration:

1) Firstly, when a sign is intercepted, it is being denied rulership of the next house. The sign after it is jumping in and is taking over. This sign may well be the duplicated sign but need not be. So all we know from this is that karmically there has been a kink in the chain, and the cosmos has prevented the intercepted sign and its planet from ruling over its rightful house.

Now I would assume that the next signs would be slightly bothered at being shunted forward, but wouldn't mind much and would adjust. But the duplicate sign is forced to stretch themselves to cover two houses to compensate. So the question is was that sign ready?

And so if we believe in the cosmos, as astrologers probably do, then we must conclude that it was better for the individual to have the duplication rather than have the intercepted house in rulership. So the interception was the problem and the duplication was the perhaps extreme but necessary solution. Although it may well be the case that it was not simply the next best choice, but that sign is a strength in the individual and so it was greatly beneficial to have it stretched this lifetime. The only reason we might think otherwise is if we think there is a karmic law that all signs should ideally rule one house.

So it does not have to be that the duplication is bad. It could be good- the sign could be favoured by the cosmos to do twice the work of other signs. But the overspill point will still be true as there is no sign break between houses.

And illustration 2)

Imagine there was some serious karmic misbehaviour in the past life, and one sign has had a predominant attitude. Maybe in the past life chart it had the stellium and so had delusions of grandeur over its status and was used to handling lots of houses in the chart. In this life the sign *freestyles* and takes over the house in front of it, building its little empire. As a sign develops as a counterweight to its previous sign, the duplicated sign is really saying 'I think I can do this better than you could you imbecile'- (Noel Tyle would say im-be-chee-le but that's really cruel of me to bring up.) Now if this is the case then the signs start bullying each other in a game of musical chairs until the loser of the group realises they can't find a chair to sit on. If this is the case then we must interpret the intercepted house as the indirect victim of the duplicated signs. Instead of thinking the intercepted house is on probation, we must think the intercepted house must grow more powerful and learn to fight. It is to be encouraged.

So, depending on which view you take, you either have an intercepted sign cast into prison by an angry cosmos, which asks the saintly duplicated sign to step in and restore order. How well the duplicated sign does this depends on the strength of the natal sign ruler. Maybe it can be beneficial- depends on one's views of cosmic law and equality and being well rounded.

OR

Duplicated sign is the bad boy and bully, intercepted sign is the victim with its ruler being exiled. We have to train the underdog, and need to tame the bully.

I guess the crucial question is if it is always desirable in a karmic sense, to aim towards an equal house split in the chart, as a form of karmic law that we must become well balanced individuals. I am actually inclined, by my view of karma to think this might be the case, in which case I will re-work my interpretations. But hope that sheds light on my viewpoints. Would I be right in saying you are of the view of illustration 2, which means you are in support of this karmic law?

Would love to hear your thoughts,

Sundance

So for simplification I've put it into keywords:

A: If we do not believe in the karmic law of balance:

1) Interception= sin binned, Duplication= Saviour and strength
2) Interception=sin binned, Duplication= Necessary evil, we must overcome the maladjusted interception, maybe using the duplicated sign as it was chosen to be the saviour.
3)Interception= victim, Duplication= bully, but if this is good for the individual then why change it?
4) Interception=victim, Duplication=bully, we must help the underdog overcome the duplication, using some extra strength to restore the exiles.

Now, if we believe in the karmic law of balance, then we cannot have situations 1 and 3, but we still can have 2 and 4. If so then how do we know which one applies in any one chart? So the real difference is, do we use the duplicated sign to help the intercepted sign, OR should we use some other chart strength to help the interception?

I think you will be better at answering this question than me.

EDIT: Anyone read this? http://www.astrocollege.com/store/bookstore.cgi?ACTION=DISPLAY&CODE=0866905030

Sundance..........I know you are only giving me the opportunity to clarify my point (which is not quite as you understand it to be)...........and I can see you have given the matter some thought (as always)....but, I feel it is time for me to let this go now.

EJ

Hey, I meant no offence, I only meant that I found your thoughts so interesting and stimulating that they deserved a full post of their own. It was more out of genuine respect than derision but I know my writing can tend to look like sarcasm so I'm sorry. I also wrote at the beginning of my post that I really liked the way this thread had developed. I stand by that. I have never read anyone try and connect intercepted signs with duplicated signs- they tend to be treated separately. So I like what you are trying to do, I like the idea and I wanted to say you might be on to something.

I was merely outlying the several ways one might connect the two, with my thoughts on how I would approach any connection. I actually concluded something similar to what I thought your view was, but was hoping you would elucidate. And I pointed out where I think the gaps are so that we might try and fill them together.

I hope you carry on with your theory, I would be interested in it

The_Sundance_Kid said:

...I have never read anyone try and connect intercepted signs with duplicated signs- they tend to be treated separately

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Joanne Wickenburg and Virginia Meyer co-authored "The Spiral of Life" in 1974 (revised 1987) - where the relationship between Intercepted and Duplicated Signs/Houses appears to have first been considered. In the revised edition of that book, they outline the approach I've put forward on this thread - and state :-

"It is not until the experiences of the two pairs of duplicated signs have been pursued, and their needs at least partially fulfilled, that the qualities of the intercepted signs unfold into more conscious expression."

Apparently, Joanne W expanded on this theory in "Your Hidden Powers" (published in 1992)....I've never read it, but there is a brief summary on the link below :-

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/Intercepted_signs.htm

EJ

OK, so one more question..........................

I feel that by reading all the posts in this thread I'm gathering an overall sense of what this means - BUT -

In relation to the duplicated sign, and the lower house pair which the duplicated sign rules..................... is it the duplicated sign(s) which need(s) to be brought into balance - as in the case of say, Aquarius/Leo, or is it the signs Aqu/Leo, and the houses they rule - say, 7th/1st???

I'd say it's the latter, but I'm just in need of clarification, and am too heat-stressed to re-read earlier threads on this.

Since I am not so much into a past-lives blame-game, myself (primarily due to lack of evidence either way) I think there may be another way 'round the dilemma of the meaning of intercepted duplicate houses in a chart. (Besides the obvious one, I guess, which is to stick with equal houses.)

Generally if something is a potential Big Theme in a horoscope, you will find it cropping up in the chart in more than one place. So whether or not one believes in karmic debt, you can explore whether the theme of these intercepted signs/duplicate signs shows up elsewhere in the chart.

For example, I have Cancer and Capricorn intercepted in the 10th and 4th houses, respectively. I have Jupiter in Capricorn but no planets in Cancer, and Virgo doubles up on my 12th and 1st house cusps; while Pisces doubles up on my 6th and 7th house cusps.

So I might read from this that my moon and Saturn get short-changed as house cusp rulers, whereas Mercury and Neptune do double-duty.

Well, Mercury is pretty busy in my chart. It is my chart ruler. It conjuncts Venus and opposes my moon. It is exalted in Aquarius.

Neptune is in my first house, squaring Jupiter. My Jupiter is in its fall in Capricorn, and makes no other major aspects.My moon's only major aspects are oppositions to chart-ruler Mercury, and Venus. Neptune, on the other hand, broadly trines my Venus and Sun. My Saturn is in the 12th (with Mercury as cusp ruler), and its only major aspect is a broad opposition to my sun.

So this might be a case for independently seeing an intercepted planet plus intercepted sign rulers as being less powerful in a chart.

If anyone else would like to work out their charts, I would be curious to learn what you come up with.

And EJ, I think you have done great work here! My big concern with the "misuse" in past lives thesis is: (A) what would constitute independent evidence? and (B) the idea of karmic debt, so far as I understand it, has had a sorry history in India, where historically it was used to justify and enforce a rigid caste system in which poor people were blamed for their own misfortunes and unable to advance much in life. I'm a bit too Aquarian to want to reinforce this kind of thinking. I think M. Ghandi and the modern Indian democratic movements have tried to move away from it.

Also, I have read some of the early work on hypnosis and subjects recalling past lives; but I don't recall how much of this work dealt with astrology, let alone the problem of intercepted/duplicate houses.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

1) Interception= sin binned, Duplication= Saviour and strength
2) Interception=sin binned, Duplication= Necessary evil, we must overcome the maladjusted interception, maybe using the duplicated sign as it was chosen to be the saviour.
3)Interception= victim, Duplication= bully, but if this is good for the individual then why change it?
4) Interception=victim, Duplication=bully, we must help the underdog overcome the duplication, using some extra strength to restore the exiles.

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Interceptions = Sign lessons mastered, but sin binned (to prevent misuse)

Duplications = Outdated/inappropriate attitude that could result in misuse of talents acquired through mastered sign lessons.

This might be like having your match-winning/star hockey player sin-binned until you were certain that he would not re-offend (because of the undesirable consequences for all if he did so).

.......how do we know which scenario applies in any one chart? So the real difference is, do we use the duplicated sign to help the intercepted sign, OR should we use some other chart strength to help the interception?

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For me, only the scenario I've outlined above applies.......and the solution to the problems of the Intercepted Signs is to update the "inappropriate" attitude relating to the Duplicated Houses.

However, I think the BobMarks link in my last post indicates that Joanne Wickenburg would "use the duplicated sign to help the intercepted sign"......and (seemingly) every other Astrology student in the world would "use some other chart strength to help the interception".

[Note : When Joanne W presented her theory, perhaps the imagination of the astrological community was captured more by her thoughts on the "problems" of Intercepted Signs than by her proposed "solution". Of course, that would imply that most astrologers focus on identifying chart problems rather overcoming them (and maybe favour complexity over simplicity in their intellectual deliberations)..............Perish the thought!]

EJ

R4VEN said:

....In relation to the duplicated sign, and the lower house pair which the duplicated sign rules..................... is it the duplicated sign(s) which need(s) to be brought into balance....or is it the signs Aqu/Leo, and the houses they rule....I'd say it's the latter, but I'm just in need of clarification...

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The activities of the Houses are where the attitude problem will be rooted and found, but the sign on the cusp will indicate what that problem might be.

And, the problem will affect the House in which the planetary ruler of the duplicated signs is located (as explained by Waybread)........but it is not rooted there. So, we'd be looking here at effects caused by the attitude problem of the Duplicated Houses.

Waybread said:

..Since I am not so much into a past-lives blame-game......My big concern with the "misuse" in past lives thesis is: (A) what would constitute independent evidence? and (B) the idea of karmic debt, so far as I understand it, has had a sorry history in India, where historically it was used to justify and enforce a rigid caste system in which poor people were blamed for their own misfortunes and unable to advance much in life. I'm a bit too Aquarian to want to reinforce this kind of thinking. I think M. Ghandi and the modern Indian democratic movements have tried to move away from it.

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I too am not into past-lives blame-games (as explained in my earlier comment).....which is why "misuse" is not an emotive word for me (also explained earlier).

So, the "misuse" of the idea of karmic debt in India serves only to exemplify my point that Souls can master their understanding of an astrological lesson (karma) but "misuse" that knowledge during an incarnation on earth (in India).

In this case, such a Soul might have spiritually harmed millions of others...........but owes a karmic debt only to Itself (to learn to use the knowledge appropriately).......but (might) use Interceptions in the next incarnation to avoid harming other Souls whilst learning.

With regard to "independant evidence" of any past-life misuse of knowledge/talents.........it simply doesn't matter/is not an issue which needs to be considered............because the current incarnated ego/personality is not responsible for the failure of it's Soul to act appropriately in any past or future lifetime. Thus, if my Soul was one of those that misused It's knowledge of karma in India..........EJ53 is blameless and would be misguided in allowing knowledge of that to become a "heavy trip" in this lifetime. However, most EJ53's lack the Soul Awareness to accept they exist for one lifetime only - "bringing nothing into this life and taking nothing from it" - which may be why incarnated Souls are born without conscious knowledge of previous lifetimes.

So, I guess what I'm really saying here is "independant evidence" is a requirement of the intellect/ego/conscious mind - but the Soul "knows" things we cannot begin to comprehend intellectually............and that knowledge cannot be accessed without Soul Awareness.

EJ

EJ53 said:

The activities of the Houses are where the attitude problem will be rooted and found, but the sign on the cusp will indicate what that problem might be.

And, the problem will affect the House in which the planetary ruler of the duplicated signs is located (as explained by Waybread)........but it is not rooted there. So, we'd be looking here at effects caused by the attitude problem of the Duplicated Houses.

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Thanks for that clarity, EJ53. (Today is 4th day in a row where max temp in my city has exceeded 41degC, so my brain cells are in need of repetition it seems...)
Am looking at the chart of a man with Aries/Libra intercepted in 10th/4th respectively. Natal Mars is in Aqu in 8th - the lowest house of a duplicated Aquarius, also squaring Venus in Scorp in 5th. I'm having to contemplate this, as the Mars-Venus square seems to be shining a big ol' spotlight onto where/how it is he can resolve the interception.

EJ53 said:

I too am not into past-lives blame-games (as explained in my earlier comment).....which is why "misuse" is not an emotive word for me (also explained earlier).

In this case, such a Soul might have spiritually harmed millions of others...........but owes a karmic debt only to Itself (to learn to use the knowledge appropriately).......but (might) use Interceptions in the next incarnation to avoid harming other Souls whilst learning.

With regard to "independant evidence" of any past-life misuse of knowledge/talents.........it simply doesn't matter/is not an issue which needs to be considered............because the current incarnated ego/personality is not responsible for the failure of it's Soul to act appropriately in any past or future lifetime. Thus, if my Soul was one of those that misused It's knowledge of karma in India..........EJ53 is blameless and would be misguided in allowing knowledge of that to become a "heavy trip" in this lifetime. However, most EJ53's lack the Soul Awareness to accept they exist for one lifetime only - "bringing nothing into this life and taking nothing from it" - which may be why incarnated Souls are born without conscious knowledge of previous lifetimes.

So, I guess what I'm really saying here is "independant evidence" is a requirement of the intellect/ego/conscious mind - but the Soul "knows" things we cannot begin to comprehend intellectually............and that knowledge cannot be accessed without Soul Awareness.

EJ

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I'll go with that. This seems to me the best way of viewing the past-life issue. I particularly like what you wrote in bold type. To carry any kind of guilt or responsibility for the actions of a totally separate ego (i.e. the incarnation of one's soul in another lifetime) is about as useful as digging holes and then filling them in.

R4VEN said:

Am looking at the chart of a man with Aries/Libra intercepted in 10th/4th respectively. Natal Mars is in Aqu in 8th - the lowest house of a duplicated Aquarius, also squaring Venus in Scorp in 5th. I'm having to contemplate this, as the Mars-Venus square seems to be shining a big ol' spotlight onto where/how it is he can resolve the interception.

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For which my "formula" might suggest the Soul is skilled in it's understanding of assertiveness/fairness in relationships (Aries/Libra) and able to use them to achieve a balanced work/home life (10th/4th)...........when he stops equating friction with passion (Mars/Venus) and imposing his own values upon others (Mars in 8th "attitude problem")...........Assuming his Mars is dominating rather than being dominated, of course.

A Soul who mastered the Relationship Axis but was unable to prevent the Ego from using that knowledge to charm others for selfish purposes - and now having an Ego that must learn to respect the values of others (before the Soul will allow him to charm anyone in this lifetime).

EJ

Wow - is that ever true!!!!!

Thanks, EJ. You make this subject seem so easy! And this is perhaps because I've convinced myself that it's hard! (Cap Rising here - life's gotta be a struggle, surely?)

I have a thought that comes from looking at my own chart.... Cancer Cap duplicated.... moon in cancer and mars in Cap...so that energy is working well, apart from the opposition of the signs that is. I have no planets in Aries of Libra... so I am thinking that thins may well be new ground for me, yet is important for me to deal with this issue later in life, when the mars moon opposition is resolved... emotional equanimity. There is a promise in the interception... saved maybe for aprticular transits in order for them to be developed in a particular way.

I also have my sun moon midpoint in Libra.... so a promise of the energies of balancing the home life of my moon and the travelling life of my sun (sag).

EJ.... have been looking at a duplicated virgo pisces (Sun and Asc in Virgo) and intercepted Aq (5th house) and Leo (11th house). Venus Pluto and Saturn are in Leo with Part of fortune in Aq. This is an evolved person.... consciously working with the new aquarian energies, later in life. Follows your theories to a T! (uranus in 1st)

FleaXXX