Now some people can see only the water and the pitcher. But most of the Hellenistic astrologers were seeing a human image as well.
Ancient Capricorn was a water sign
- Thread starter Whoam1
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Now some people can see only the water and the pitcher. But most of the Hellenistic astrologers were seeing a human image as well.
JUPITERASC
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JUPITERASC
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[Deleted off topic comments. - Moderator]
so
your sidereal Mars has a connection to the Sea-goat
but your Tropical Sun belongs to seasonal based astrology
Tropical astrology is divorced from the Sea-goat constellation
so
your sidereal Mars has a connection to the Sea-goat
but your Tropical Sun belongs to seasonal based astrology
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waybread
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No, actually I hadn't realized that when you first click on my attachment, it says Aquarius in the lower left; but click again, just to get the pattern of dots-in-the-sky that are not so obviously connected. The water from Aquarius's urn is the Aquarid meteor shower, however.
Same with Capricorn. When we know what to look for, we can see the constellation, but good luck making the sea-goat out of it.
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JUPITERASC
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waybread
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Whoam1, I haven't read all of your posts, but I've read enough to feel that you are a seeker, trying to make sense of your life through astrology. If this is the case, one book that I highly recommend is Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. He talks about each planet, sign, and house as having a kind of goal or end-point. Forrest is a sun-Capricorn. He quoted Ursula LeGuin (science fiction author):
"You thought, as a boy, that a mage is one who can do anything. So I thought once. So did we all. And the truth is that as a man's real power grows and his knowledge widens, ever the way he can follow grows narrower: until at last he chooses nothing, but does only and wholly what he must do."
To Forrest, Capricorn's endpoint or evolutionary goal is "the marriage of one's nature and public identity," which is another way of saying integrity.
Of course all of us are mixes of planets in multiple signs. Water (emotion, even spirituality) in your chart may come from another planet-in-sign; or perhaps from the 9th (conventional religion) or 12th (mysticism, solo meditation) house.
"You thought, as a boy, that a mage is one who can do anything. So I thought once. So did we all. And the truth is that as a man's real power grows and his knowledge widens, ever the way he can follow grows narrower: until at last he chooses nothing, but does only and wholly what he must do."
To Forrest, Capricorn's endpoint or evolutionary goal is "the marriage of one's nature and public identity," which is another way of saying integrity.
Of course all of us are mixes of planets in multiple signs. Water (emotion, even spirituality) in your chart may come from another planet-in-sign; or perhaps from the 9th (conventional religion) or 12th (mysticism, solo meditation) house.
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Whoam1
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I believe Capricorn to have both earth and water nature. As David is says it Capricorn is earths waters. I have Neptune unaspected first house Capricorn, it is my only unaspected planet and so far has proven one off if not my strongest planets.
I respect Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury and the luminaries as strong too.
These are the constellations of my chart
Neptune, Uranus, Mars in Capy
Jupiter in Pisces
Saturn in Cetus (Aries but water nature instead of fire)
Moon in Leo
Venus in Libra
Mercury and pluto in oph (Scorpio in nature)
Sag Sun
3 water (7-counting cap)
2 fire
1 air
3 earth
5 cardinal
2 mutable
2 fixed
I respect Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury and the luminaries as strong too.
These are the constellations of my chart
Neptune, Uranus, Mars in Capy
Jupiter in Pisces
Saturn in Cetus (Aries but water nature instead of fire)
Moon in Leo
Venus in Libra
Mercury and pluto in oph (Scorpio in nature)
Sag Sun
3 water (7-counting cap)
2 fire
1 air
3 earth
5 cardinal
2 mutable
2 fixed
david starling
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The Babylonian constellation pictured as a Sea-goat was seasonally inspired at the time it was first recorded. Therefore, its imagery accrues to the Tropical-sign Capricorn, as well as to the Sidereal.
[Deleted quote of now deleted off topic post. - Moderator]
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Whoam1
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Thank you david. Lets just stop cutting the tail off of the goat fish and maybe you will find more Capricorns practicing astrology...
Where would it even go to if the seasonal theory was true? It would go to Aquarius... oh wait that's not a water sign either. It doesn't just up and fall out of the sky.
david starling
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Ancient Greeks connected their woodland god Pan to Capricorn, and also included the goat fish. Story was, Pan "panicked" when attacked by an enemy. He attempted to escape by transforming himself into a fish and swimming away, but he was only half-successful!
Whoam1
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Sidreal astrologers as well I me myself still use this. Capricorn is ruled by Pan the God of the wilds, Mars God of war, Saturn titan of wisdom, and Enki God of water.
JUPITERASC
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Western Tropical Astrology is currently out of sync with the Babylonian Sea-goat constellation
i.e. due to precession
therefore Western Tropical Astrology being seasonal
is divorced from Sidereal astrology
JUPITERASC
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It's not difficult
Western Tropical astrology signs are Seasonal i.e. - out of sync with the Constellations
''If it is inspired'' by seasonal considerations (rather than the shapes of specific fixed stars), it was made within a sidereal zodiac with the winter solstice after the middle of the sign at the very least. For Babylonian and Hellenistic zodiacs I would consider only the sidereal zodiac or a tropical one that starts an amount of degrees after the equinox.
If it is inspired by seasonal considerations, it still uses fixed stars and ascribes every influence or signification, including weather to them. We see the same in Hellenistic authors including Ptolemy.
However, the seasonal considerations joke is not applicable to Taurus with the Pleaides, which appears in the paleolithic Lascaux cave. The 6000 years old or more constellations of Scorpio and Leo would also not as tightly align with Ptolemaic logic.
The evidence of constellations long before seasons around the 2nd century Mediterranean make me highly doubt Ptolemaic rationale.
If it was seasonal, then it would make the astrological sign POWERLESS in the Southern Hemisphere (and arguably in high latitudes and the equator). For those reasons I completely reject the powers of Ptolemy and prefer to ascribe them to the sidereal images, as the Babylonians and early Hellenistic, Persian and Indian astrologers did.
There is not a single coherent reason from a divinatory or naturalistic standpoint to continue to use the tropical zodiac for me astrologically. It might be divinatory in some numerological or lots sense, but it is not astrology rationally. Whenever tropical astrologers today present rationales and arguments, they are always logical fallacies and not indicative of their practice. To some extent, Ptolemy had good reasons for his astrology and cosmology at the time, today astrologers do not.
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Whoam1
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I understand tropical astrology season, and I respect some of its forumals, but I don't see the point of choosing seasons over constellations, which founded the whole entire subject of astrology. I am tropically a Capricorn (it is my strongest sign) I'm sidereal a Capricorn (still my strongest sign) if tropical astrology is correct then it accounts for the watery nature of Capricorn because I display that nature as a Capricorn and it is not founded elsewhere in my chart (tropically speaking).
JUPITERASC
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If Tropical Western astrology is seasonal
then as petosiris just mentioned
and I quote
Whoam1
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I understand seasonal and i quote "I don't see the point in choosing Seasons OVER constellations".
"If it is inspired by seasonal considerations, it still uses FIXED STARS and ascribes every influence or signification, including weather to them. We see the same in Hellenistic authors including Ptolemy."
Constellations use fixed stars....
"If it is inspired by seasonal considerations, it still uses FIXED STARS and ascribes every influence or signification, including weather to them. We see the same in Hellenistic authors including Ptolemy."
Constellations use fixed stars....