Why is astrology considered "rubbish"?

Phil

Well-known member
Well, I just know it works. In fact, when I notice certain traits in persons, I already know in advance what aspects, etc. to expect in the horoscope. I have not done yet a natal horoscope (I have done over 100), which I felt was off the mark. The salient points of the character are all there.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Well, I just know it works.
In fact, when I notice certain traits in persons,
I already know in advance what aspects, etc. to expect in the horoscope.
I have not done yet a natal horoscope
(I have done over 100),
which I felt was off the mark. The salient points of the character are all there.
A minimum of 250 natal horoscope delineations are required
before any even tentative conclusions may be drawn

HOWEVER

experiments already prove the astrological correspondences of trees :smile:

QUOTE

'....Lawrence Edwards, retired mathematics teacher
has researched the forms of living nature, using geometric analysis.
In 1982 he daily photographed tree buds on a selection of trees,
and found that buds expanded and contracted to an approximate fortnightly rhythm.
These periods varied between 13.6 and 14.7 days
but each species of bud kept the same period in their rhythm.
Edwards realised these were astronomical rhythms
and each period correlated to the Moon's alignment with a planet and the Earth.....'


LawrenceVortex.jpg


'....When the Earth, Moon and planet were in a straight line
the buds of the tree where in a more rounded, expanded shape.
When Moon and planet where 900 apart
(as seen from the Earth),
buds took on a more oval, contracted shape, sharp at one end and blunt at the other.
Even in the middle of Winter buds are doing a rhythmic dance
whose tune is called by the planetary movements.
Which planet in particular affected a tree was determined by the tree's planetary "rulership"....'


'....Oak trees for example are "ruled" by Mars
(meaning that some of its rhythms are determined by Mars rhythms),
Elm trees by Mercury,
Cherry by Moon,
Ash by Sun
Beech by Saturn.

It takes the Moon 13.67 days to go from conjunction with Saturn to opposition with Saturn.
The opposition and conjunction aspects are when the Earth, Moon and Saturn are in a straight line;
this is also when the buds of Beech trees or conifers attain their most rounded shape.....'
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You are pulling my leg right? :smile:
The assumption is that you are aware of the basic requirements of 'the scientific method' :smile:
with regard to the collation of statistical data
a minimum of 250 natal charts are required

by the way
that is clearly
a miniscule sample given there are 7 billion plus humans currently alive
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
A minimum of 250 natal horoscope delineations are required
before any even tentative conclusions may be drawn


You can cut that back if you are willing to learn from astrologers of the past. However, if you have to do it all on your own, then you may need more than 25,000 charts. It will take you many life times.
 

Kannon

Well-known member
I have a very technical background in engineering and physics, and have studied astrology for over 20 years and done over 100 natal horoscopes. I simply accept astrology because it works.

Most astrologers probably fall into the 'belief' category in which they are convinced of its usefulness like we are, so they go about putting it to use with people rather than doing research or setting up test demonstrations.

However, people are becoming less and less satisfied with belief. The Age of Aquarius will turn us more and more proactive at researching and testing. Belief that is not tested is based in fear/ignorance and is soon becoming a relic of the Age of Pisces and increasingly seen as a poor basis for anything in society.

But you cannot test 'belief' on a purely intellectual basis. This is the common offense of scientific rationalists. The object or practice of the belief has to be put to the test.

In the press, often astrology is termed rubbish by "scientists". I find this condescending scorn of uninformed "scientists" revolting. None have ever taken the time to seriously study astrology and then try it out themselves.

Me too. Pretension to intelligence is easier than working for the real thing. Some rest on what they think they already know as certain rather than continuing to learn. It is an ego game in which it is easier to appear intelligent than it is to do the work to be it.

Of course if you try to come up with a "scientific" explanation as to why it works, you can't. But there are many things that science is unable to explain. Thoughts, our minds, etc.

Sure you can. Its so common sense that it is overlooked.

The Moon is close enough to exert gravity upon the material life on earth. That's a no brainer and should be the first thing pointed out to anyone who attempts to trash astrology. Much of early astrology before telescopes was very Lunar-based, even in ancient Greece. The Moon clearly exerts gravitational pull upon the earth's bodies of water. What are humans and animals and plants? Bodies composed of about 70% water.

The further out from the earth you go, the more other mechanisms we have to account for besides gravity. I think that gravitational effect comes only from the Moon, Sun, possibly Mercury and Venus.

Our cosmology isn't subtle enough yet. I think in around 100-200 years the mechanisms may become common knowledge. I look to torsion fields as the ultimate, unifying mechanism. I think our solar system exists in a giant torsion field created by our sun at its core and by the torsion fields of other plants in addition.

A Torsion Field is created by spinning bodies. While the mere mass of a nearby orbiting object is enough to set up a gravitational relationship, we have to examine what else is happening here. The planets are not only there and orbiting, but spinning. Torsion field research is in its very early stages, but the suggestion is that these spinning bodies apparently create a kind of funnel effect for energies to transfer from one dimension to another. That is my paraphrase of what I anticipate we will discover, but don't expect any researcher out there to say that or apply it to astrology.

Often cited is the Gaugelin Mars effect, trying to show statistical correlation of Mars in the 12th and great athletes, which seems kind of silly to me. This is a cherry pick doomed to failure and not at all a representative test.

I agree on Gaugelin. That work doesn't stand up to scrutiny and astrologers are best off letting go of it. Statistical correlation is never enough and can always easily be trashed by anyone good at playing numbers games. If any test or research is to gain the respect of broad scrutiny, then it will have to involve a proper clear-cut test using accurate planet pos/charts, as much specificity as is reasonably possible, use of controls wherever possible and keeping proper data records that are made available worldwide.

Why not have astrologers show how closely the natal horoscopes match the character of a number of test persons? Has this ever been done seriously? Why defend astrology on scientific terms? It will be doomed to fail in this arena. Why not defend it showing that it works?

Not sure why.

I do think it can be done, however, so that those far more familiar with the workings of astrology can set at least some of the framework for how such tests are done. The debunkers (Carl Sagan, James Randi) have picked the lowest hanging fruit - newspaper columns - for trashing astrology.

Many of them also do not feel it is worth more serious examination to put it to the test because their far-reaching assumption is that at the historical moment mainstream astronomy let go of astrology it became 'pseudoscience' and for scientific rationalists it immediately went into the 'superstition' category. Which, of course, they feel free to treat with disdain.

I would love to see astrology addressed openly with a very broad-minded, subtle and intelligent physics. Torsion fields and inter-dimensional physics are the key. Astrology is an inter-dimensional phenomenon that cannot be fully explained by current scientific understanding.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
You can cut that back if you are willing to learn from astrologers of the past.
However, if you have to do it all on your own,
then you may need more than 25,000 charts.
It will take you many life times
.
Not all are willing to learn from astrologers of the past :smile:
 

Kannon

Well-known member
Overblown notions of how many charts must be studied in order to come to conclusions about astrology or some assertion within it are exactly one of the reasons proper studies aren't being consistently done.

I once had an online conversation with Steven Forrest related to this when I asked him if he used precession correction (for transit charts). He said, "No," and that he didn't have the time to do the hundreds of chart comparisons it would take to determine which was more accurate. This thinking is an example of poor focus to start with. Decades ago, when asked if/how an astrological study could be done to show correlations between birth charts and occupation, Edgar Cayce answered that it wouldn't take but several example charts to get it started...

Excerpt of reading 5753-3 at request of Hugh Lynn Cayce (his son) Oct 25, 1939:

. . .

2. EC: Yes, we have the information here, that has been indicated in Life Readings as to vocational guidance for individuals.

3. In developing a plan, or a manner of seeking ways in which individuals might give expression of the latent faculties and powers from the material sojourns, as well as the planetary influences, - here we will find that there are conflicting forces and influences at times - as we have indicated.

4. The astrological aspects may give a tendency, an inclination; and a systematic, scientific study of same would indicate the vocation. And about eighty percent of the individuals would be in the position of being influenced by such astrological aspects; or would be in the position for their abilities to be indicated from same.

. . .

7. If some five individuals would be taken, and their charts or astrological aspects indicated, and questions asked as to determining the influence or force from same, - from such an aspect there might be given information so that a general chart might be indicated for a questionnaire, or a test, or an activity that would be of material benefit in a great NUMBER of individuals - but never a perfect score may be indicated. For the will, as well as the factors of environment, have their influence.
. . .

Edgar Cayce Readings © 1971, 1993-2007 by the Edgar Cayce Foundation
All Rights Reserved
 

Phil

Well-known member
The assumption is that you are aware of the basic requirements of 'the scientific method' :smile:
with regard to the collation of statistical data
a minimum of 250 natal charts are required

by the way
that is clearly
a miniscule sample given there are 7 billion plus humans currently alive
Please provide a reference that "the scientific method" requires 250 natal charts. :) (You must be pulling my leg...)
Finding correspondence in about 100 charts to the respective 100 persons is more than enough proof that it works. Of course, it will depend on the level of skill of the astrologer...
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Please provide a reference that "the scientific method" requires 250 natal charts. :) (You must be pulling my leg...)
Finding correspondence in about 100 charts to the respective 100 persons is more than enough proof that it works. Of course, it will depend on the level of skill of the astrologer...

When Boeing produced the Dreamliner, is it conceivable that they did 100 tests and decided that was good enough?

When a new drug is being tested, how big are the trials?

 

Culpeper

Premium Member
In the Enlightenment astrology was rejected because it was considered an invisible influence that caused action at a distance. No one bothered themselves to actually falsify it. It is rejected entirely on theoretical grounds. But then they were embarrassed by people like Newton who pointed out such invisible influences as the magnetic force, the electrical force, the inertial force and the gravitational force. If one then many more. Newton was forced out of the university for his work on gravitation and inertia. He had to take a job in the Royal Mint. Thereafter he showed his contempt for science by only writing on religious topics. Currently science accepts some invisible influences if they think they can show a source for them. So they still reject the force of inertia even though it kills people all the time. They say they cannot find a source for it. They are afraid that if they actually study astrology they might actually find the source for it.
 

Phil

Well-known member
When Boeing produced the Dreamliner, is it conceivable that they did 100 tests and decided that was good enough?

When a new drug is being tested, how big are the trials?

You are comparing apples with oranges. The way I see it, either a natal horoscope is right or it is wrong. Your examples are not relevant here. Science says that astrology is rubbish. Taking, say 100 natal horoscopes, and verifying that they are all correct, is more than enough proof.

If you just check the traits exhibited and the number of correct hits is statistically correct in respect to probability, then this would be the case, for example, Gauguelin. The latter is the wrong way to go about testing. It is all about character analysis: either it is right or it is wrong. Saying a horoscope is, say, 50% or 30% wrong, would already result in the failure of the test.

The test is simple: is the person recognizable from his/her birth horoscope, yes or no? This is not a "scientific" test, just like astrology is not a science, in the traditional sense. The testers are more psychologists than scientists.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Please provide a reference that "the scientific method" requires 250 natal charts. :) (You must be pulling my leg...)
Finding correspondence in about 100 charts to the respective 100 persons is more than enough proof that it works
No proof is evident that "the scientific method" requires 100 charts
Of course,
it will depend on the level of skill
of the astrologer...
so 100 charts is clearly insufficient
if the 'level of skill'
of the astrologer
is wanting
:smile:
 

Phil

Well-known member
No proof is evident that "the scientific method" requires 100 charts
I never said that. I also never said the scientific method was relevant to testing astrology. You said the scientific method requires 250 charts. Where is your reference that this is so? :)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

I never said that.

I also never said the scientific method was relevant to testing astrology.

You said the scientific method requires 250 charts.
Where is your reference that this is so?
:)
In India for example, astrology is legally a science
therefore the scientific method is relevant to astrology :smile:

Amazingly, you seem unaware that 'the scientific method' routinely requires data collation

 

Phil

Well-known member
In India for example, astrology is legally a science
therefore the scientific method is relevant to astrology :smile:

Amazingly, you seem unaware that 'the scientific method' routinely requires data collation

I am not in India. In the West astrology is not a science (you should know this.. :biggrin: ).

I am well aware of the methodology of the scientific method, thank you. It does not apply here.

Nevertheless, I am still waiting for you to provide a reference to the scientific method requiring 250 test cases.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I am not in India.
In the West astrology is not a science
(you should know this.. :biggrin: ).
so you agree with my previous comment

In India for example, astrology is legally a science
therefore the scientific method is relevant to astrology :smile:

Amazingly, you seem unaware that 'the scientific method' routinely requires data collation


Surprisingly, you appear unaware that Astrology as practised in India
is not confined to India
in fact, for example
Our forum is not in India either
- and yet we have a VEDIC Board :smile:

VEDIC astrology is a science


I am well aware of the methodology of the scientific method, thank you.
It does not apply here.
astrological opinions differ on whether 'the scientific method' applies to astrology or not

Nevertheless,
I am still waiting
for you to provide a reference to the scientific method requiring 250 test cases.
- in your opinion -
the 'methodology of the scientific method does not apply here'
 
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Phil

Well-known member
so you agree with my previous comment


Surprisingly, you appear unaware that Astrology as practised in India
is not confined to India
in fact, for example
Our forum is not in India either
- and yet we have a VEDIC Board :smile:

VEDIC astrology is a science


astrological opinions differ on whether 'the scientific method' applies to astrology or not

- in your opinion -
the 'methodology of the scientific method does not apply here'
Please stop dodging the question and provide a clear answer for your 250 number.. :rightful:
 
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