Help Find Missing Madeleine.

Hello - new here but have been lurking a while. I'm just a dabbler - not a professional astrologer.

"I am just feeling very uneasy about the huge amount of conjecture and the lack of facts and serious investigative reporting".

I agree with you on this Futurist, and I too am quite surprised by my own level of interest and emotion that this case has provoked. There seems to be a Neptunian kind of 'fog', and distortion of reality (??) around the analysis and reception of this case, and the way its being handled by the media.

Although I do doubt the accuracy of horaries in the absence of Madeleine's birthtime, along with other factors, (the police log of the phone call was reported to be 11.50pm by the way - which is interesting from a number of angles - non-astrological as much as astrological), the horary charts I've looked at here in regards to the case are astounding and impressive. Have to take my hat off to those who have posted their interpretations.

isisrose

Hi there...Are you sure about the time reported to police? I have been hoping this info (at least!) would come to light.....A chart set for that time puts the moon newly into sag. which would make sense....but also again raises the question of who in this story is ruled by Jupiter, the foreign parents, the foreign country, the police? Any ideas anyone? Also, one doesn't need birth times for horary or event charts- transits to natal would be very helpful- Does anyone have the birth data of the parents? lillyjgc

Yes, I'm pretty sure about the log time...
...but oops in regards to birthtime - I realise we don't need these for horaries. An accurate natal chart for Madeleine, and her parents of course, would be ideal and that's what I (along with many!) would like to see. Can't find this anywhere. Don't have the parent's birth data either unfortunately.

Looks like they have arrested 2 people.

Cnn Article just out: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/28/missing.mccann/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Sweet Stars

cops can arrest anyone and everyone .. what you do need is direct evidence.. otherwise, the judge will let them go just on "lack of evidence"

and that article is pretty much saying this is a clear cut con art or i forgot the proper legal word for extracting money with an intent to profit.

investigators screwed up this case as the colorado cops with JonBenet Ramsey's case. I still think that their parents or family members or friends of the family are involved somehow in both kidnappings

Tik

I just posted the article so that people can see updates on their horary results.


Relax.

hI sweet stars.....Thanx for posting the article...lillyjgc

I am way late to this thread as i have not been about the forum too much lately but i too have been following the case and must say that my approach has been very different than most here. I began by looking at Madeline's natal chart and from here concluded that indeed she was to have an awful experience at this time in her life. Sun had moved to Algol was mentioned earlier in the thread but there are many other points hit and aspects within to show a natal set up for this child to experience this ugly fate. I realize that many of you may not perscribe to the notion that a natal chart cannot foretell such things and so my opinion here may not be valid to many in this regard. But i do urge you all to look at Maddie's natal, transiting and progressed, as well as solar return charts at the time of her abduction and in the 100 plus days that have followed.
I think that horary and electional astrology should be looked at along side the natal data which is known and i think the natal charts of both she and her father are significant in this case as they have been publicly documented.
I am happy to see that this forum has given the outlet for such matters as missing person cases as for me, this is an important step towards testing and improving upon this craft handed down by the ancients. I see the willingness to get in there and dig and discuss as being quite altruistic and brave, especially involving such sensitive issues as this one. Thanks to all who participated.

Astromony, Can you give us Madeleine's Birth time? I think without this we are a bit hamstrung-as her *life* is the issue we really can't do much without the ascendant point-errors would be magnified in the secondaries...The moon is obviously a big player in this story and its placement is very important in the natal if we are to accurately use this to ascertain what happened to Madeleine....I think most of us have not proceeded down this line because we don't have the necessary info...Hope we can get it! Best wishes, Lillyjgc

Lilly, I see what you mean and i have not found her birth time but her birthdate is May 12, 2003 in Leicester. The Moon was between 22 degrees of Virgo and 7 degrees of Libra on this date. As for progressions, all of the progressed natal planets would be accurate accept the Moon position. The same goes for her father born on June 5th, 1968 but i think his has already been posted here. Even without Ascendent and Houses or the Moon's exact placement, i believe that much can be ascertained from these charts. Here's a link i found interesting about the case.
http://www.neptunecafe.com/madeleine.html

Astromony thanks for that interesting link..I have looked at the charts (Birth time unknown) already and yes we can clearly see something very bad has happened to Madeleine...I think everything points to her being dead..Of course I am hoping to be wrong about this...I can't really say what i think has REALLY occurred here...it isn't appropriate but I do think most contributors to the thread had a similar idea....Thanks again for updating the thread...best wishes, Lillyjgc

I don't know much about horary astrology, although I am trying to learn. I found this info....maybe useful for the eye accident of Robert Murat. Hope it can be of some use.

Houses
1st head brain, body, appearance logevity illness
2nd face eyes, right eye, tongue speech
3rd hearing, communication, ears esp right, ulder upper limbs, collarbone, windpipes, physical fitness
4th chest (opressions from heart), lungs diaphragm, medicine
5th heart disease, viscera, liver GB Sp, children pregnancy,
6th diseses, accidents, urinary system, TB, tumors eye disease, mental agony, madness (w/ moon or 5th lord)
7th prostate, lower urinary tract
8th external genital, any longstanding incurable or permanently scarring disease
9th thighs
10th knees
11th left ear, 6th from 6th disese of diseas and recovery
12th feet left eye, death, liberation

Vesta 13, very interesting and something we can come back to if an arrest is made.An ARREST will give us enough info for an Event chart or horary..(What if, dare i say it?...what if Murat IS NOT the guy?....I have doubts......Kind regards, Lillyjgc

Some new information is available.

It now seems that there has been found a blood mark in the hotel room, where Maddy slept and police now thinks that Maddy was killed in the hotel room and then buried/hid somewhere. Now it is interesting that it took months for police to find that mark and it seems that someone tried to clean it up.

Also there is new thoughts and questions about parents and the things they may hide. Is it possible that the parents might have killed the girl? That is the question now. It still seems anyway that girl is dead.

Any new conclusions about the charts with the new info?

well

i have been saying this since day 1 .. whoever did this is directly involved with mccann's family!

it is VERY if not EXTREMLY rare when a murder of a human being involves a person who does not know the family or the victim... this was very well executed operation. if you want vengance or justice, what would you do? hit the most sensitive area, in most cases it is the child.

if there is a blood stain.. why no one noticed this sooner? this just shows how incompetemtn police is.. 1st thing you do blue light over everything it exposes blood.. YES even if you bleach the sheets and etc. blood residue does not get washed off. 2nd thing you look at what kind of a blood is it: human, animal or something compeltely dirfferent. if it is a human blood then what group of blood. Then police turns it over to forensics where investigators extract DNA even partial DNA should give them an asnwer.

basically, the way the investigation went .. this is ridiculous. Any moron could at least gather basic information such as blood stains, how the got into the hotel room. they cant just show up in a hotel room transperant then appear out of the blue.

too many quesitons

Tik

(CNN) -- Police in Portugal want the mother of Madeleine McCann to "confess" to having accidentally killed the young girl, a relative of the family said Friday.
Kate McCann arrives at the police station in Portimao on Friday for further questioning.




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var CNN_ArticleChanger = new CNN_imageChanger('cnnImgChngr','/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/imgChng/p1-0.init.exclude.html',2,1); //CNN.imageChanger.load('cnnImgChngr','imgChng/p1-0.exclude.html'); Philomena McCann, the sister of Madeleine's father, Gerry, told the British news network ITN that police "tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer" in which she would say she killed Madeleine by accident "and then disposed of the body."
There was no immediate confirmation from Portuguese police. Kate and Gerry McCann have previously denied any wrongdoing.
Police on Friday named Madeleine McCann's mother Kate a suspect in her disappearance, and said the girl's blood was found in a vehicle the family rented 25 days after reporting her disappearance, according to a family spokeswoman.
A spokesperson for Kate McCann told CNN police have not brought charges against her.
Madeleine McCann's blood was found in a car her parents rented 25 days after they reported her disappearance, Justine McGuiness told CNN.
Kate McCann was seen going into the police headquarters in Portimao, a town in Portugal's Algarve region, on Friday morning.
She was questioned for almost 11 hours the day before, and left looking visibly shaken and drained, according to CNN's Paula Hancocks.
Gerry McCann has also now arrived at the police station for questioning.
Portuguese authorities made no public statement on the latest developments.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said police were suggesting Kate McCann might have accidentally killed her daughter.
"They are suggesting that Kate has in some way accidentally killed Madeleine, then kept her body, then got rid of it," Philomena McCann told Sky News.
"I have never heard anything so utterly ludicrous in my entire life."
Madeleine's father Gerry McCann is also expected to be questioned on Friday. Family friend Clarence Mitchell told The Associated Press that Gerry would also be named as an arguido or a formal suspect. The couple have maintained their innocence throughout. See photos of the couple amid the investigation »
The McCanns "continue to deny absolutely they had anything to do" with their daughter's disappearance, Mitchell said.
Portuguese Law

• Formal suspect called "arguido" or "arguida" for a woman
• An "arguido" has more legal rights than a witness, including right to remain silent and have a lawyer
• Some people request to be declared "arguido" to get this protection
• Police must declare a witness an "arguido" before asking certain questions or making an arrest
• Courts may restrict movements of an "arguido"
• An arrest or charge does not always follow someone being named an "arguido"

As a formal suspect under Portuguese law Kate McCann will gain more legal protection than when she was questioned as a witness. She will be able to remain silent during questioning and to have legal representation.
Those involved in criminal investigations in Portugal can ask to be declared formal suspects to receive this protection although it is unclear whether Mrs. McCann asked to do this.
Madeleine was reported missing on May 3, days before her 4th birthday. Her parents told police she was abducted from the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal while they ate a meal at a nearby restaurant.
Madeleine's parents, who are both doctors from Leicestershire in central England, have campaigned internationally to secure the safe return of their daughter, including having a meeting with Pope Benedict XVI and securing support from Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling and soccer star David Beckham.




Until now police have insisted Madeleine's parents were not suspects and were being questioned as witnesses.
Only one person has previously been named as a formal suspect, British national Robert Murat, who has denied any involvement in the case. E-mail to a friend



http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html

2 years for a murder? this is a typical european justice bs. Just put 2 niddles in their arms. I love Texas state!

Tik

Hello to everyone, though I have only just registered I have read the opinions of those who posted with interest and awe at the talents you have...thank you Draco for initially taking the plunge and putting your findings on the table, so to speak. I have been reading the UK Mirror Forum regularly and the following was posted, which I found interesting:

I’m a Portuguese citizen. Incidentally, I am also a lawyer. While trying to remain unbiased, neutral and dispassionate, I thought it could be helpful to throw some light on:

i) the allegation that PJ has offered a deal to Mss. McCann in exchange of a confession; and
ii) the fact that no charges have been brought against Mr. and Mss. McCann

For the sake of objectivity and neutrality, facts are in ALL CAPS, my opinion in normal caps, so that you can distinguish the text of the law from my views on the case.

1 – PJ HAS NOT LEGAL POWERS TO SETTLE OR OFFER DEALS WITH CRIME SUSPECTS. IN FACT, NOR EVEN THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR HAS SUCH POWERS. ONLY THE MAGISTRATE THAT JUDGES THE CASE IN A COURT OF LAW CAN DETERMINE THE PUNISHMENT /PENALTY APPLICABLE. I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE QUITE DIFFERENT TO THE COMMON LAW JURISDICTIONS, NAMELY THE UK AND THE US.

This is common knowledge in Portugal. One of the first things taught in law schools is that our criminal system is not like in the (American) movies. The police do not cut deals. Nor the Public Prosecutor has the power to offer deals and settle with suspects. Only the Judge can determine the penalty. It is actually quite common for the judge to deviate from the accusation and proposed penalty presented by the Public Prosecutor (for example, the Public Prosecutor charges someone with murder and asks for a 20 years jail penalty but the Judge, while finding the defendant guilty, condemns him/her to serve only 18 years).

This is such a basic principle that no detective would try to pull this stunt with a lawyer present.

2 – ONLY THE CONFESSION MADE DURING A COURT HEARING IS LEGALLY VALID (SECTION 314 OF THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE).

It seems unlikely that the PJ would push for a confession that it is not legally valid. Of course that a confession would be a huge breakthrough in the investigations as it would rule out other scenarios and allow the police and the Public Prosecutor to build a case, but if Mss. McCann later (i.e., during the court hearing) denies what she has confessed, the originally confession cannot be considered by the Judge.

On a side note, this is why the questioning at the PJ is not recorded. Contrarily to what a British gentleman was saying this afternoon on SkyNews, the reason for not recording the interview is not archaism or lack of technical means – it is actually to protect the suspect against something he/she may later regret.

3 – PJ DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO CHARGE MR. AND MSS. MCCANN. THE PJ ROLE IS TO CONDUCT AN INQUIRY AND PUT TOGETHER THE FACTS. BASED ON THE FACTS GATHERED BY THE PJ, IT IS UP TO THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR TO CHARGE (OR NOT TO CHARGE) THE SUSPECTS. THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR HAS BETWEEN 6 AND 12 MONTHS (DEPENDING ON THE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE ALLEGED CRIME) FROM THE MOMENT ON WHICH THE SUSPECT IS NAMED “ARGUIDO” TO DECIDE IF IT PRESENTS OR DISMISS CHARGES – SECTION 276 OF THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE.

It seems that the focuses being placed on the fact that no charges have been brought against Mr. and Mss. McCann is deliberately trying to pass the message that the evidence is weak. Well, I don’t know if the evidence is weak or strong. What I do know is that from a procedural point of view there could never be charges at this stage of the process.

*

Personal feelings now. I am trained to and effectively believe that anyone is innocent until proven guilty and I am therefore applying this principle to my personal assessment of this case. I also have no problems admitting ,not I feel ashamed or inferior to acknowledge, that the British police is technologically more advance that the Portuguese and probably more experienced – it is a matter of scale. What I would expect from a serious corporation such as SkyNews – on which I have relied on many different occasions for information – is neutral coverage of the story. I would expect SkyNews to investigate Portuguese law before giving any credibility to the hysteric reaction and false accusations made by the members of Mr. and Mss. McCann family. They went to the point of cutting the Portuguese lawyer out the air.

The sister of Mr. McCann is lying. Such lye seems to be an attempt to make the PJ look desperate. Having been on the other side of PJ interviews many times before, I can assure that they never get desperate.

_____________________________________________

I don't have Kate's date of birth, I would be interested (curious) to know more about it. The above poster's comments seem to make Kate look like a liar. Asking her lawyer would be the best way to find out if a deal was made.

The Mccanns are going down the 'framed' route now and family members are being very publically vocal about this...I know in one chart the 9th house was picked up in some way...is there any way according to those who have looked at this event chart that the judiciary is involved in a cover up for one of their own etc?

I have, though, found the parents own behaviour (not at all controlled by anyone, eg interviews both media and in print) very incriminating from a 'can't believe a grieving parent who knows nothing would say that'...kind of way.

Regards

Piggle

Draco said:

Let's look at the parents. I am a little suprised that the parents are embodied in Jupiter, the planet in it's domicile, as the parent's shouldn't be depicted as well dignified in this situation, furthermore Jupiter is in the first, the strongest of houses and the house it rules the cusp of, so very much at home. This makes Jupiter the Lord of the Geniture, or the planet that is equipped with the most power to act in the situation. This raises questions for me, because this does not seem to describe the distraught parents at their wits end, yet they are not described as powerless and helpless as we would expect, they're the strongest planet in the chart, so I'm going to have to draw a big question mark over that. Jupiter is still hampered however, in that it is retrograde and slow in motion, so the parents are in a position of strength, but hampered, pondering, deliberating and hesistant when they make this call - this worries me. Let's not forget either that the Scorpions Head, implying malefic knowledge, is conjoined with their ascendant.

This makes me question the parents role in this event. I am not trying to imply that they have any involvement with their daughter's disappearance, but I am questioning why they are not shown as powerless but as rather much in a position of control, aside from some hesistation and back-stepping. Jupiter not only rules the ascendant but rules the fourth cusp as well, therefore, this drama begins with the parents and will end with the parents.

I wonder if this reflects the parent's knowledge that the event is their own fault due to irresponsibility? Hopefully it is nothing darker.

Jupiter's greatest concern is with itself, it is in it's own domicile and triplicity, and is in Mercury's term, which ruling the tenth represents the authorities. The only reception of Madeleine is that Jupiter is in the Moon's face, a very minor dignity, so the parent's priorities seem to be mainly with themselves, then the authorities, and only then with Madeleine.

Jupiter is backing up to a mutual, partile trine with detriment Saturn, and Saturn ruling the third house, represents the phone-call, but Saturn's state would imply something bad about it. Jupiter has no reception of Saturn, but Saturn receives Jupiter into it's triplicity, so the person on the other end of the phone has a decent measure of concern for the parents, but why are the parents so detached from the call, being in none of Saturn's dignities, but being pained to come up against it, Saturn being so malefic. Saturn appears in the radical ninth house, the house of God and higher knowledge, and so the call is described as an appeal for help, but Saturn is in the turned twelfth from the tenth, so I wonder if something was being kept from the authorities in the phone-call?

You see I just don't like this. First Jupiter, the parent's, are depicted as well dignified and in control, and yet, due to the retrograde and slowness of motion, and the partile trine with Saturn, the phonecall, the parents are hesistant and indirect, the phone-call being something that they would rather not come up against. This makes me feel very suspicious, and I'm not trying to suggest that the parents were somehow involved, but I do wonder what it is that they were doing wrong that made them so hesitant to contact the police, and to be so very concerned with themselves, while their concern for Madeleine, appears to take a minor role. So I will be keeping a watch on this, but I'm getting into hot water so I'll move on.

Click to expand...

Just wanted to remind folks on Draco's post...and a big thank you to you Piggle for the information concerning Portugese law. Your post answered my own unspoken questions and am very grateful.

Ruby

Thank you Piggle for your very detailed information on Portugese law. I just came back here to see if I could find some Portugese residents and here you are. How wonderful. Can you please tell me anything about the area shown in this picture, marked with the yellow push pin I took from Google earth?


I've been working on some ideas for tracking through an event chart and need to know more about this area to know if it fits the description I need. I was hoping to also post this picture at the astro.com thread but the administrator has locked the thread.