detriment and fall?

Moog said:

I don't see how various viewpoints get in the way of learning. I'm very glad to have been exposed to so many traditions.

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In most fields of study it doesn't, but in astrology it always becomes a carousel of "not in my experience". Then it becomes an argument between the different traditions and how they handled certain things.

Unfortunately, this whole thing was my fault. I try not to get involved with these kinds of things. Apparently I wasn't aware of what I was doing when I started out responding here, getting way too caught up in the whole "which is worse" debate.

Anyway, to summarize for the OP and all those reading:

In the Hellensitic and Vedic traditions, there is no detriment, but there is fall. There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.

In the medieval tradition, detriment and fall both exist as essential debilities with detriment being the worse of the two as it causes a planet's significations to become corrupted whereas fall makes a planet's significations weak. You could argue about which is preferable in any given situation, but it's going to be a personal preference about which you would rather handle. For example, a planet in its detriment ruling the Fourth house could show a broken home, an abusive father, something along those lines, whereas that planet in its fall could show the father is sickly or maybe has a low-status job or is otherwise ineffective at being a father.

The modern tradition tends to be rather back and forth about their dignities and debilities (for example, I've seen some modern authors give Mercury's exaltation as Aquarius whereas others keep it as Virgo, and then the exaltations and falls of the outers seems to be all over the place), so I'm not really sure how or even if they handle the debilities.

Kaiousei no Senshi said:

There tends to be some argument as to whether the fall and exaltation extends past the exact degree or not. I'm not sure if that's ever settled or not.

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As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter)

Can I ask why you consider only the degree area around Libra Sun to be fallen and not the entire sign?

As much as I like Libra Sun people and we get along quite well because we're airy, I still think that Libra Sun in its entire sign to be fallen because they are still very needy and dependent on others.

Because, in my experience, Sun indications when in Libra (as the entire sign) have not appeared (to me) to be those characteristic of a planet in its Fall.

Fair enough. I'm somewhat in the same position with it comes to exalted Libra Saturn. I don't think all degrees of Libra in Saturn to be exalted as I've met quite a few who display a busted sense of Saturn which isn't very characteristic of Saturn at his finest.

dr. farr said:

As late as the time of al-Biruni (11th century) apparently there were still different approaches to the degree(s) of Fall and of exaltation: according to al-Biruni ("Elements"), one group counted the Fall (and exaltation) degrees from the 1st degree of the sign up to the exact degree of Fall or exaltation; another group considered only the degree-area (either the exact degree or the degree before, including and immediately following) of the Fall or exaltation; and a third group considered the entire sign as the Fall or exaltation.
By the time of Ibn Ezra (mid-12th century) it seems the matter had been finally settled (at least in Western astrology): the entire sign as Fall or exaltation, won out, and this became the consistent view from that time on.

Me?? Well, although I do consider Fall more difficult than detriment, and while I have reservations regarding counting an entire sign as Fall or exaltation (particularly the Fall of the Sun in Libra), nonetheless I do delineate the entire sign (rather than a degree area of that sign) as Fall or exaltation (EXCEPT for Sun in Libra-here I only count the degree area of the Fall, rather than the entire sign-I just can't accept that the SUN Falls throughout that entire sign! Inconsistent, yes, but perhaps my alchemical concepts regarding the Sun and what it symbolizes, is responsible for my outlook in this matter)

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I agree. Especially the degrees that conjunct Spica and Arcturus!

From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

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Soragirl6 said:

From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

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Let's not be limited here... It's a bad habit to project the same debility on each and every planet in fall or each and every planet in detriment because it's going to take different shapes and forms depending. The debility should be catered to the planet and sign and their meanings first of all.

You said that Detriment is emotional and mental exhaustion and that Fall is physical exhaustion. I think this is a limited way of astrology as you are labelling Detriment as being emotional and mental and Fall as being physical with no exceptions. No matter what your sources are I still think that depending on the sign and planet it is going to take different shape as their are more emotionally based planets and signs then others and their are more physically based planets and signs then others.

Moon is in detriment in Capricorn. What are the effects of having Moon in Capricorn? a boring concrete world, non-emotional, physically overworking and cold. If anything these traits are physically exhausting debilitations. Yes Cap moons are cold and have a hard time softening up mentally and emotionally but it doesn't emotionally hurt them to soften up either because they arguably have the strongest will power and are invulnerable either way. It's the physicality, the overworking, the over practicality and mentality that saps moist enjoyment from it's Concrete mind. Perhaps the depressed Capricorn Moons are sick of experiencing life as being dull and jaded and are consciously searching for something to help soften their rock solid filters of how they experience life.

The Moon is in fall in Scorpio, what are the effects of having Moon in Scorpio? the world is a dark and emotionally negative place and it experiences emotions with the most tremendous intensity. Scorpio Moon is emotionally nocturnal, Grave keeping it's emotions. They are the poker-face of the Zodiac, only feeling safe enough to mentally and emotionally scatter through dark and lonely nights due to it's deep anxiety towards it's super vulnerability. This means a dark life. Physicality does come into play here but not without it's emotional vulnerability and dark intensity causing it to be on guard and secretive physically to hide it's emotionality. Note how many times the word emotion is used when describing moon in Fall? that is because it is completely emotional based.

Their emotions are so intense and they are so afraid of their weakness being exposed because they get so deeply inflicted so easily that it causes the naturally secretive nature. But because of this fixed and stubborn quality, their deep dark emotions have no outlet and have nowhere to go so it manifests internally causing it to show up physically. This is what causes the dark and mysterious persona. This is why I think a natural self hatred is a part of Scorpio moon, because they give up everything to be the strongest when the truth is they are just running away from the fact they are weak, which is why they live life physically shelling the way they feel. This is not the way the Moon wants to express itself.

So you see there are mental exhaustions in Capricorn moon and their are high physical exhaustions here too, so how can Detriment just be emotional and mental when Lunar Cap shows more physical exhaustion perhaps then any other placement? and how can Detriment only be mental and emotional when fallen Lunar Scorpio shows more emotionality exhaustion then perhaps any other placement?

Don't forget that not everyone with a Capriconic or Scorpionic moon is going to have everything I said to the full extent. Depending on the rest of their chart and their aspects it's going to effect the way it is funnelled. As for me my Moon in Scorpio is Unaspected and everything I mentioned about Scorpio Moon is how my Scorpio moon works in my personality. I have Pisces sun, Pisces Mercury, Pisces Midheaven, Scorpio Moon, Scorpio Pluto, Cancer Mars, and Cancer Rising in the mix too.

Soragirl6 said:

From my research, Detriment is the worse placement for a planet. Although fall is what you would call in literal terms the worse, because they are in a poor situation, it is not their fault. Detriment is damaged from a mental emotional level. Fall is debilitated only physically. This means that their expression may not be the best, but mentally and emotionally their is still hope. Its natural for humans to assume that a placement is worse when its physically bad. Therefore, many say that fall is clinically the worse. But let me ask you this: Is it worse to be "weak-minded" or physically weak? Both have negative affects. Fall is like a square, which means there are things that the planets don't have in common. But common ground can be found between these aspects. Detriment is more like an opposition. In astrology this is considered a powerfully negative aspect because the two planets are directly opposing each other. The same happens with a detriment. The person is always fighting within himself and highly mentally and emotionally insecure. Fall is a product of its environment and normally the process begins at birth. Added, Fall has a sense of exaggeration about it, just like exaltation. It seems bad, but its not as bad as it seems. For Detriments many people do not even recognize what its doing until the damage is done. My moon is falling and my Venus is in detriment. My feelings are obviously in a poor state, simply because I cannot express them in the way I would like. However, when it comes to love, I really don't believe in it, and my view of it is quite distorted. (Me first). Has been for a while. That is the difference between a physical state of being and a mental one.

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To say that fallen planets are similar to square and detrimental planets are like oppositions is overly simplified and not accurate. Even squares and oppositions take on different expressions depending on the planets involved and even further, what signs those planets occupy. For example: Gemini Jupiter (detriment) square Pisces Mercury (detriment) will be give a different effect than Sagittarius Jupiter (domicile) opposite Gemini Mercury (domicile). The first example is bound to be both physically and mentally exhausted (busted) whereas for the 2nd example, there would probably little to no debilitated effects despite the opposition between the planets.

I have a major problem with you saying that since the fallen planets are in poor position, so it's "not their fault." First off, no one choose to be born when they were born. The natal chart you have is the one that stays with you in this lifetime. Automatically speaking, it's not anyone's "fault" that they're born to who/what/when/where. You're just born and that's that. What you choose to do with what you have is up to you. Some position may create difficult energies but there's no guarantee that Sagittarius or Pisces Jupiter people are going to be luckier than those with Gemini and Virgo Jupiter. Just as there's no guarantee that Capricorn Mars people will be millionaire as opposed to those with Cancer, Taurus, or Libra Mars. It all depends on how the individual uses what they have.

Second, detrimental planets are not the only planets exclusive to causing "damage" as any planets are capable of causing "damage." It is really hard to pinpoint one or 2 exact planet/aspect that's responsible for causing what.

Third, there are very few charts that exist without a debilitated planet. I've only seen 1 chart that doesn't have any debility at all- she's one of my friends but that doesn't mean she escaped roughness nor does it mean she's free of causing any damage in her lifetime.

deepblue said:

From what I can tell, detriments, falls, etc. should never be taken seriously.

It just seems like a kind of astrological gimmick that someone came up with one day.

just my two cents

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I agree, in real life I have never seen the horrible results that text books mention.

For example, so many successful politicians in my country have Jupiter in Capricorn- they just seem to have a magic touch in this area; Mars in Cancer is very family oriented and very loyal; Mercury in Pisces is often highly successful in communicative areas ... and so on.

After seeing hardly any correlation between these ways of mapping and real life during my many years of practice, I thought perhaps it was because I was a Southern Hemisphere astrologer and the seasons are reversed e.g. Capricorn is the hottest month of the year, so I thought that maybe this was the reason.

However, I have lots of clients born in the Northern Hemisphere and the same thing applies to them.

In the end I decided to mainly discard these ways of mapping astrology and just look at how a planet would work at its best and worst in a sign and this has worked out very well for me and my clients.

Alice

The sages tend to talk in extremes, and most charts don't feature such extremes. Extremes are useful for teaching; you don't point to two mildly different objects to teach a principle, you use two widely differing results.

There's a lot more to a planet's condition than simply it's presence in a sign, and if you use that raw fact alone to predict, then you're unlikely to find accuracy.

Moog said:

The sages tend to talk in extremes, and most charts don't feature such extremes. Extremes are useful for teaching; you don't point to two mildly different objects to teach a principle, you use two widely differing results.

There's a lot more to a planet's condition than simply it's presence in a sign, and if you use that raw fact alone to predict, then you're unlikely to find accuracy.

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Yes, I agree Moog, there is far more to a chart than a planet in a sign, but this said, I still haven't found planets in detriment or fall produces any ill effects in the person unless there are other factors that accentuate problems; for example Mars in Libra gives considerable tactical skill so it is often very active in the charts of those who need to use this skill e.g. politicians, high level business, armed forces etc.,

As I had a practice that relied on skill in forecasting for many, many years, most of the astrological tools I use have been tried out to the nth degree. Planets in detriment and fall just didn't make the cut.

Alice

Alice McDermott said:

Yes, I agree Moog, there is far more to a chart than a planet in a sign, but this said, I still haven't found planets in detriment or fall produces any ill effects in the person unless there are other factors that accentuate problems; for example Mars in Libra gives considerable tactical skill so it is often very active in the charts of those who need to use this skill e.g. politicians, high level business, armed forces etc.,

As I had a practice that relied on skill in forecasting for many, many years, most of the astrological tools I use have been tried out to the nth degree. Planets in detriment and fall just didn't make the cut.

Alice

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I add flesh to my Astrology as I think it is extremely limited to even neglect decans as humans are so very complex and perplexing it was just natural for me to incorporate decans into my practice, so the first thing I did was use it on myself and I would agree with the answers I found 100%

I have Cancer Rising, Cancer Rising lends a shy and vulnerable appearance but I also look dark and mysterious, I have Cancer Rising in 18 degrees which falls into Scorpio being the 2nd Decan. Put two and two together and this sums up the dark, vulnerable, mysterious and shy look. Not to mention my Scorpio moon adding to the Scorpionic qualities in my 2nd decan Cancer rising. I am not going to say that Risings effect physical genetics, but I am going to say that what rising means to me is the EMOTIONAL image. If you feel something, it's going to show up in your posture either way, now depending on how far off your ascendant is to your moon for example it's going to determine whether you look like how you feel or whether you look completely different to how you feel but either way I think that your emotional image will effect how you feel on the inside too because there is a relationship between you and yourself with how you look and this goes hand in hand with your inside emotions effecting your Rising. I think that the essence given by the Ascendant resonates from you as a person even if the ascendant doesn't match the emotion, because the ascendant will pull out it's own version of that emotion.

This also means that when considering orbs for aspects I believe that no matter how wide the aspect as long as it still falls into the sign there will be energy from that certain aspect. I have predicted something for a person who had 13 degrees wide of an aspect and he couldn't believe how correct I was. I have found that sometimes wider degrees has felt stronger on people then tight degrees and I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I have thought of arguable reasons but let's not get into that now. This is what I mean when I said I add flesh to my practice, if in real life things are showing up in a person then there is no astrology that can deny or beat that, so I use it and try to figure out where at least it is in the chart - being the 13 degrees wide aspect he had - Where as many people would astrologically deny the aspect I would search for the aspect in the personality myself and in this case the wide aspect was very strong within this person.

Okay back on point with Dignities and Debilities. When talking about a Planet in fall or anything else we are talking about it at it's rawest state. This means no aspects involved, no exceptions from other personal planets. Just the meaning of a planet in raw fall without any hand from anything.

Aspects are going to shape things out more than anybody thinks. Mercury dignifies Gemini for it's intellectual, communicative and logical approach, just like the meaning of Mercury itself. I have Mercury in Pisces and I can feel how Mercury has fallen Pisces for it's lack of confidence, unrealistic and intuitive approach. But this does mean a Mercury Pisces mind has the ability to do otherworldly things which can ultimately result in being uniquely clever.

So you see when talking about Moon in Fall for example, we are talking about it in rawest form, when really those people most probably have many different aspects happening towards it.

I have Scorpio moon and it is Unaspected, so the description of moon in fall will be extremely accurate, with the exception of depending it on me as a person and how I use it as well, but for the most part it is going to be undeniable. But for someone with a few strong Trines aspecting their moon, this could remove a lot of the negative description into what sounds like a completely different moon sign. I do not think of a persons Moon sign alone because unless it is unaspected, it is going to go through the filter of their Mercury ect. Astrologically speaking everything going on in ones chart is attached to the same person, so it would be impossible to think of how these people you speak of are doing things with Pisces Mercury alone when the rest of their chart is attached to their Pisces Mercury in some way or another.

This is what makes unaspected planets so difficult because my moon cannot get any hand from any of planets and this causes a possessed in itself type behaviour as the only thing it can do or think of has to be to do with itself making it as extreme of the planet and sign as it gets. Of course I will always have Pisces sun involved in my personality, of course I will always have Cancer mars involved in my personality whether my moon is unaspected or not, but for the most part it becomes confining and caging and extremely one sided.

dranzer93 said:

I add flesh to my Astrology as I think it is extremely limited to even neglect decans as humans are so very complex and perplexing it was just natural for me to incorporate decans into my practice, so the first thing I did was use it on myself and I would agree with the answers I found 100%

I have Cancer Rising, Cancer Rising lends a shy and vulnerable appearance but I also look dark and mysterious, I have Cancer Rising in 18 degrees which falls into Scorpio being the 2nd Decan.

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If you use decans you might be absolutely fascinated by duads! The Ascendant duad strongly affects the physical appearance; for example, there is a great deal of difference in the appearance of a person who has the Gemini duad of Cancer rising to a person who has the Scorpio duad of Cancer on the Ascendant.

15-17.30' is the Capricorn duad of Cancer, 17.30' - 20 is the Aquarius duad of Cancer, which would be your Ascending duad? The Capricorn duad would tend to give a darker appearance and the Aquarius duad has a marvellous smile that lights up the face.

Alice

Certainly duads are a very important (yet usually ignored) co-factor!! Not only are they extensively applied in Vedic astrology, but their delineation in Western astrology goes back to the very earliest (still extant) book about Western astrology, the "Astronomica" of Manilius (14 AD), in which book duads are accorded much importance.

may28gemini said:

To say that fallen planets are similar to square and detrimental planets are like oppositions is overly simplified and not accurate. Even squares and oppositions take on different expressions depending on the planets involved and even further, what signs those planets occupy. For example: Gemini Jupiter (detriment) square Pisces Mercury (detriment) will be give a different effect than Sagittarius Jupiter (domicile) opposite Gemini Mercury (domicile). The first example is bound to be both physically and mentally exhausted (busted) whereas for the 2nd example, there would probably little to no debilitated effects despite the opposition between the planets.

I have a major problem with you saying that since the fallen planets are in poor position, so it's "not their fault." First off, no one choose to be born when they were born. The natal chart you have is the one that stays with you in this lifetime. Automatically speaking, it's not anyone's "fault" that they're born to who/what/when/where. You're just born and that's that. What you choose to do with what you have is up to you. Some position may create difficult energies but there's no guarantee that Sagittarius or Pisces Jupiter people are going to be luckier than those with Gemini and Virgo Jupiter. Just as there's no guarantee that Capricorn Mars people will be millionaire as opposed to those with Cancer, Taurus, or Libra Mars. It all depends on how the individual uses what they have.

Second, detrimental planets are not the only planets exclusive to causing "damage" as any planets are capable of causing "damage." It is really hard to pinpoint one or 2 exact planet/aspect that's responsible for causing what.

Third, there are very few charts that exist without a debilitated planet. I've only seen 1 chart that doesn't have any debility at all- she's one of my friends but that doesn't mean she escaped roughness nor does it mean she's free of causing any damage in her lifetime.

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When I say "its not their fault", I am not being literal. The definition of detriment is a cause of harm or damage. Yes Falls in the literal sense are capable of causing damage. But according to the dignity system, they are classified as "falling from Grace". When I say it works on the physical level, typically that is where they are falling. Because of their inherit natures they have a poor expression. With a planet in detriment it is working from the mental plane. This is why it is said to be "their fault". It may not necessarily, literal be their fault as we are born as we are, we cannot help that. But because of the of the planet's mental distortion, it could cause the native to act in very odd and chaotic ways depending, thus causing the damage. I wouldn't say planets in fall are distorted, but rather poorly expressed for the planet. This can be debilitating. For some reason they are in a situation where they cannot express. (If you believe in Horary astrology, this could play out in the real world).
If we were to look at these people from the everyday world, it would be difficult to see this obviously and aspects influence our day to day expressions. When I gave an example of myself, of course I was speaking from my own situations. Obviously people have many different situations that can usually be altered by the natal chart.
Depending on what type of astrology (psychological, Horary, Classical) depends on whether you believe dignities play a strong role. Personally, I feel my moon being in a Falling placement has effected me in a negative way, even though I have a great house placement and nothing but positive aspects to it. But considering that my Venus (planet of love and money) is located in a Sign that is more aggressive and selfish (Aries), I will not ignore that. I believe that that kind of position can be damaging to some degree. I can see this being quite more troublesome.

dranzer93 said:

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Let's not be limited here... It's a bad habit to project the same debility on each and every planet in fall or each and every planet in detriment because it's going to take different shapes and forms depending. The debility should be catered to the planet and sign and their meanings first of all.

You said that Detriment is emotional and mental exhaustion and that Fall is physical exhaustion. I think this is a limited way of astrology as you are labelling Detriment as being emotional and mental and Fall as being physical with no exceptions. No matter what your sources are I still think that depending on the sign and planet it is going to take different shape as their are more emotionally based planets and signs then others and their are more physically based planets and signs then others.

Moon is in detriment in Capricorn. What are the effects of having Moon in Capricorn? a boring concrete world, non-emotional, physically overworking and cold. If anything these traits are physically exhausting debilitations. Yes Cap moons are cold and have a hard time softening up mentally and emotionally but it doesn't emotionally hurt them to soften up either because they arguably have the strongest will power and are invulnerable either way. It's the physicality, the overworking, the over practicality and mentality that saps moist enjoyment from it's Concrete mind. Perhaps the depressed Capricorn Moons are sick of experiencing life as being dull and jaded and are consciously searching for something to help soften their rock solid filters of how they experience life.

The Moon is in fall in Scorpio, what are the effects of having Moon in Scorpio? the world is a dark and emotionally negative place and it experiences emotions with the most tremendous intensity. Scorpio Moon is emotionally nocturnal, Grave keeping it's emotions. They are the poker-face of the Zodiac, only feeling safe enough to mentally and emotionally scatter through dark and lonely nights due to it's deep anxiety towards it's super vulnerability. This means a dark life. Physicality does come into play here but not without it's emotional vulnerability and dark intensity causing it to be on guard and secretive physically to hide it's emotionality. Note how many times the word emotion is used when describing moon in Fall? that is because it is completely emotional based.

Their emotions are so intense and they are so afraid of their weakness being exposed because they get so deeply inflicted so easily that it causes the naturally secretive nature. But because of this fixed and stubborn quality, their deep dark emotions have no outlet and have nowhere to go so it manifests internally causing it to show up physically. This is what causes the dark and mysterious persona. This is why I think a natural self hatred is a part of Scorpio moon, because they give up everything to be the strongest when the truth is they are just running away from the fact they are weak, which is why they live life physically shelling the way they feel. This is not the way the Moon wants to express itself.

So you see there are mental exhaustions in Capricorn moon and their are high physical exhaustions here too, so how can Detriment just be emotional and mental when Lunar Cap shows more physical exhaustion perhaps then any other placement? and how can Detriment only be mental and emotional when fallen Lunar Scorpio shows more emotionality exhaustion then perhaps any other placement?

Don't forget that not everyone with a Capriconic or Scorpionic moon is going to have everything I said to the full extent. Depending on the rest of their chart and their aspects it's going to effect the way it is funnelled. As for me my Moon in Scorpio is Unaspected and everything I mentioned about Scorpio Moon is how my Scorpio moon works in my personality. I have Pisces sun, Pisces Mercury, Pisces Midheaven, Scorpio Moon, Scorpio Pluto, Cancer Mars, and Cancer Rising in the mix too.

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Let me say again that I was not speaking from literal terms here. Clearly by Moon in Scorpios description in literal expression it is the worse. Moon being situated in a sign that is both intense and resentful is not necessarily what I would call a "good placement" Added when I gave the example of myself, I was speaking of myself, not for anyone else. How the planets affects one's personal life is them, and can be influenced by our natal chart. Every planet that is in a domicile does not necessarily produce the best results in the outside world.

However, I feel the planets poor placements can affect whats going on the inside and outside in some way or another. Venus being placed in a sign that is logical and critical (Virgo) is pretty bad. But I can only imagine the effects of Venus (the planet of love and money) being placed in a sign that is selfish and aggressive (Aries) or the ever paradoxical Scorpio who is also aggressive and intense.
Moon being placed in the intense sign of Scorpio filled with deep emotions can give off a really poor emotional expression. The fact that it has deep emotions is not necessarily the uncomfortable part for the moon, but Scorpio's EXPRESSION of those feelings, which usually comes off aggressive and intense. But on the moon standards it is even less comfortable in a sign that is cold, calculating, and harden. That means the moon (planet of feelings and emotion) is in a place that it can hardly express itself at all. This is impart because the Moon is distorted on the mental level for the native. When its in fall its not typically distorted but just weak or poor. There is a POSSIBILITY that this could very well cause an individual to fight within themselves.

Detriment (really dislike immensely) to Fall (exaggerated loathing)

Thanks for further explaining, Soragirl. Sorry, I have Gemini Mercury... I can get too literal LOL

Now that you expanded upon your information, I actually do agree with some of your assessment between fall and detriment.

I don't have any fallen planets but I do have 1 in detriment: dreaded Taurus Mars. The damage that my Mars can do... I can pretty much make up a catalog. But it's not my Mars causes damage on me, it can end up causing damage for other people (without any intent) if they get in my way. When I do set out to cause damage to others, it ends up causing more damage than I plan, to which, I relish the destruction. Sounds kinda evil but I only resort to this when I'm being cornered. Detriment isn't incapable of action, the problem is they can be overly spring into action in an exaggerated manner which then can cause damage.

From my personal standpoint, I have contempt for fallen positions because there's a lingering ineptness/inability that I find so intolerable. I just don't respect that level of timidness.

However, when I think of it in real world terms and how it plays out... detriment is worse and more corrupted with the ability to do more damage. For example, in the Sun position of Aqua (det) vs. Libra (fall) as far so who's more corrupted and wayward, Aqua totally takes the cake. They only wish they could be like Leo but act out in the most weird and unsettling ways to achieve their ends and the sad part is, they don't even know or acknowledge that! As for Libra, their crime is sitting on the fence for fear of offending anyone. But Libra doesn't do damage to others the way that Aqua acts out.

Even Taurus Mars (det) vs Cancer Mars (fall), Taurus Mars can be totally dangerous whereas Cancer Mars is too scared to do anything. As someone with Taurus Mars, I will be honest in saying that I have no qualms about bulldozing the whole bloody lot if anyone gets in my way. I'm pretty determined. When I was a youngster, I wouldn't care who or what gets effected, all I know is, I'm focused on getting what I want and if some damage occurs, oh well, no pain no gain. Sounds pretty dreadful for others around me, doesn't it? I have a lot of friends who have Cancer Mars and they tell me they admire my sense of making things happen. They don't realize that some of the things I made happen are at a cost to others... to which now that I'm more mature, I weigh in with more responsibility. However, all my Cancer Mars friends have been telling me for years their simple dreams of moving to another city (as an example) and they STILL have not done anything to act upon such a simple task! Whereas for me, when I determined I'd move, I act on it right away.


As I've said before, I still think that depending on where the detriment planet is in the chart and if there's any benefics aspecting that detriment planet, it can lessen some of the negative effects. I don't think detriment planets can ever totally get rid of its debilities no matter how good the benefics are or nice house placement, but the native can work on the issues to lessen them if the planet is better situated for active correction. I do find that fallen planets have the most difficulty in correction... which goes back to the ineptness. Fallen planets are too scared to act- in one way or the other. Detriment needs to learn to scale back and be proportional, which, in real terms, is doable. Fallen, however, can't even get to the starting block to do anything, let alone correct erroneous ways.

may28gemini said:

in the Sun position of Aqua (det) vs. Libra (fall) as far so who's more corrupted and wayward, Aqua totally takes the cake. They only wish they could be like Leo but act out in the most weird and unsettling ways to achieve their ends and the sad part is, they don't even know or acknowledge that! As for Libra, their crime is sitting on the fence for fear of offending anyone. But Libra doesn't do damage to others the way that Aqua acts out.

Even Taurus Mars (det) vs Cancer Mars (fall), Taurus Mars can be totally dangerous whereas Cancer Mars is too scared to do anything.

Click to expand...

I suppose perception is everything! Your experiences of these signs is vastly different to my own and perhaps it is because I am a Southern Hemisphere astrologer.

Sun sign Aquarians in my land are amongst the nicest people I know. They are actively involved in areas of social improvement and are almost always very kind. Though they are definitely a bit wacky their thought processes lead to quite new ways of approaching situations that, in my experience, has lead to great benefits. For example, my Aquarian great-uncle invented something that has become an icon in Australia, the idea was developed from my Aquarian grandmother's thoughts. I haven't met any Aquarians who desire to be Leos or act like Leos. However these are summer born Aquarians, for all I know winter born Aquarians might be as ridiculous as you describe.

Sun sign Librans do 'sit on the fence' as you have described. I have few as friends and getting then to tell you the actual truth is impossible. However, they are all dynamic, successful people. Perhaps this is because they are all born in the spring in my country, but I know a few Northern Hemisphere born Librans and they too do well in life and don't hide their light under a bushel.

Mars in Cancer is a fighter!! After all Mars is in a Cardinal sign. These will fight for the family and/or for their country and/or their business to their last breath, but won't waste their energy on matters they deem unimportant. I haven't met any timid Mars in Cancer people, thought I have met some volatile ones when they feel a member of their family has been insulted.

One of the most successful people in the astrological world I know has Mars in Taurus on the Ascendant. Without her work there would not be a major astrology program available. No one I know would describe her as ruthless, nasty or destructive, thought she can be a little volatile once in a while because this Mars is involved in a T square with Uranus and Jupiter.

My observations that people just didn't act in the 'inferior' way Northern Hemisphere text books described for planets in fall or detriment or the 'superior' way that planets in dignity and exaltation were supposed to give lead to me questioning this whole method of astrological mapping. When computer programs became available I did a great deal of research on people with planets in dignity, exaltation, detriment and fall and found a number of highly successful people with planetary placements in signs that should have given problems. These people used these planet-sign combinations very well indeed. As a result of this research and my observations, now I just think about how a planet would behave in a sign with the aspects it carries and delineate from that.

For example, look at the chart of one of the most successful astrologers/authors of the 20th Century, Noel Tyl (31st December 1936, 3.57 pm, West Chester, PA). He has Jupiter in Capricorn conjunct Sun in Capricorn in the 7th house, he has taught in every continent in the world and has had his books translated into a number of languages - he is globally famous. Jupiter is his oriental planet and has brought him all the benefits that is promised by this planet, even though it is in Capricorn. Nor is he mean, he offers free tutoring in one of his methods on his forum - the only famous astrologer I know who does this.

He has Mars in Libra and I have seen his tactical skills work to great effect a number of times.

Humans seem to want to be prejudiced and will find all kinds of ways to do this. In astrology planets in fall and detriment seem to be one of the major ways this is done. For example, to my horror the FAA Journal a few years ago published an article postulating that people with planets in detriment or fall were evil or more inclined to evil than people with planets in dignity or exaltation. This is beyond ridiculous! The editor of this magazine is a 'traditional' astrologer and quite happily published this appalling article.

Drazner93, I know Moon in Scorpio is a difficult placement, one of my best friends had this placement and my aforementioned grandmother had the Moon in Scorpio square Sun in Aquarius and opposing Pluto in Taurus -she wasn't an easy person to live with. However, she was intensely loyal, enormously intelligent and extremely hard working. She lifted her family from poverty to prosperity and this still continues many generations later. In spite of her planets in detriment and fall, her life was extremely successful, with considerable achievements in business and generations of descendants who are prosperous and happy.

Each planet-sign combination has its positives and negatives, it is up to the consulting astrologer to assess how these combinations will work in the house it resides and with the aspects it carries.

Alice

Fascinating point. I forgot that various hemispheres could possibly effect how positions manifest. It's quite possible that summer born Aquas aren't as psychotic and wonky as the winter born ones. I was only speaking of northern hemisphere astrology. I was actually born on the north eastern hemisphere and quite possibly that has effected me. I'm Libra rising but I find it quite easy for me to swing over to Aries axis when it suits me (and it's been suiting me quite often lately), so I don't know. Ok back to Aqua vs Libra Sun.


It sounds pretty bad from my end, but I generally like Aqua Sun people. I get along with them and usually, we become close friends quickly. The main issue with them is that they are loose cannons and expect the world to change but refuse to include themselves in that lot. They're harder on the external world than they are on themselves...whereas on the polar axis of Leo Sun being dignified that they're harder on themselves and let the external world go on as is. Although I don't tend to feel close to Leo, I find them to be easier people to get along with as their ego isn't damaged. Aquarius people are fun and zany, but they're the first ones to dislodge a relationship based upon other people not agreeing with their weird and unrealistic principles, coupled with strange delusions of grandeur/fame to idealizing themselves achieving some sort of humanitarian cause. All my numerous friends with Aquarius Suns have been busted up all because in the end, they couldn't stand that I didn't agree with them on some stupid principle that I don't even care about. NO Leo has ever left any relationship with me based upon "principles." Actually, no Leo ever left me, period. My relationships with Leos don't sour, whereas, with Aqua, it's highs for the beginning but it crashes and burns in the end. To be fair, there were a few Aquas who came back to me to make amends but I just can't cope with those who are willing to let "humanitarian principles" get in the way of personal relationships.

Now, as for the Libra Sun people, I like them MORE than I like Aqua simply because Libra is so much nicer and not inclined to strange bouts of erratic behavior. Libra is too careful to NOT step on others or get in others' ways... but sometimes they can get quite depressed about themselves and down because I think they're underrated and not very appreciated. Libras are usually pretty sound and balanced... but the problem with keeping balance is that eventually one side or the other tips over and Libra has a very difficult time adjusting to NOT being perfectly balanced and then some angry undercurrent might seep out in quite startling ways...

As far as what's "worse" in reality/practice- detriment. Now I see why planets in detriment is considered grossly corrupted. It's true. Ewww, that means I have a gross corrupted Mars. Oh well, I can handle that.

may28gemini said:

Fascinating point. I forgot that various hemispheres could possibly effect how positions manifest. It's quite possible that summer born Aquas aren't as psychotic and wonky as the winter born ones. I was only speaking of northern hemisphere astrology. I was actually born on the north eastern hemisphere and quite possibly that has effected me. I'm Libra rising but I find it quite easy for me to swing over to Aries axis when it suits me (and it's been suiting me quite often lately), so I don't know. Ok back to Aqua vs Libra Sun.


It sounds pretty bad from my end, but I generally like Aqua Sun people. I get along with them and usually, we become close friends quickly. The main issue with them is that they are loose cannons and expect the world to change but refuse to include themselves in that lot. They're harder on the external world than they are on themselves...whereas on the polar axis of Leo Sun being dignified that they're harder on themselves and let the external world go on as is. Although I don't tend to feel close to Leo, I find them to be easier people to get along with as their ego isn't damaged. Aquarius people are fun and zany, but they're the first ones to dislodge a relationship based upon other people not agreeing with their weird and unrealistic principles, coupled with strange delusions of grandeur/fame to idealizing themselves achieving some sort of humanitarian cause. All my numerous friends with Aquarius Suns have been busted up all because in the end, they couldn't stand that I didn't agree with them on some stupid principle that I don't even care about. NO Leo has ever left any relationship with me based upon "principles." Actually, no Leo ever left me, period. My relationships with Leos don't sour, whereas, with Aqua, it's highs for the beginning but it crashes and burns in the end. To be fair, there were a few Aquas who came back to me to make amends but I just can't cope with those who are willing to let "humanitarian principles" get in the way of personal relationships.

Now, as for the Libra Sun people, I like them MORE than I like Aqua simply because Libra is so much nicer and not inclined to strange bouts of erratic behavior. Libra is too careful to NOT step on others or get in others' ways... but sometimes they can get quite depressed about themselves and down because I think they're underrated and not very appreciated. Libras are usually pretty sound and balanced... but the problem with keeping balance is that eventually one side or the other tips over and Libra has a very difficult time adjusting to NOT being perfectly balanced and then some angry undercurrent might seep out in quite startling ways...

As far as what's "worse" in reality/practice- detriment. Now I see why planets in detriment is considered grossly corrupted. It's true. Ewww, that means I have a gross corrupted Mars. Oh well, I can handle that.

Click to expand...

lol don't feel so bad... (I've got Venus in Aries...I am very corrupt) XD Like you said before good house placements and good aspects can actually benefit that position. Truth be told in the outside world, a domicile is really not that great, either. In fact the native can sometimes be obnoxious too. I guess cause they enforce the planet so much that some of them can get a little too comfortable with their expression. Like I'm Saturn in Capricorn. That position is very comfortable for the planet, but I've been told that I'm so rigid that I'm always thinking about the consequences, even when I'm going to a party. "If I go to this party tonight, what if I don't get enough sleep and end up waking up late for work?" What doesn't help is that I have it in the 2nd house which makes me really cheap. So if the party requires money, I usually don't go XD. Sometimes having a planet in domicile can make you extreme and If you have a planet like Moon and Sun in domicile it can make you self-absorbed.
I think the best position to have for a planet is in its exalted placement. Although the native can be exaggerated as far as its goodness (naturally its good, but still has flaws) and naive, they are the most balanced placement for the planet. Not to little, not too much. That's why so many people believe dignity Exaltation is somewhat better than dignity Domiciles, even though domicile has the most power...because in our world, literally they are the best expression.