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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


View Poll Results: Do your Appearance match your Ascendant?
Yes, it does 6 24.00%
No, it does not 5 20.00%
Yes, it does somewhat 14 56.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151  
Unread 10-03-2020, 03:16 AM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

Hello Rose,
The large or bulging eyes thing is more indicative of a Pisces Sun. While Pisces rules the feet it is Gemini that rules the hands. Small hands and feet can be a familial genotype and along with other things indicative of a Taurus ASC. Are your hands and feet proportionally smaller than the other members of your immediate family? Generally the
Jupiter(traditional) ruled Pisces is taller than average for their sex, race and / or ethnicity and family physiology would indicate.

SAG Sun possibly square PIS ASC, if close means your inner self and outer self are in conflict. Especially if your PIS Moon is also closely square your SAG Sun.

Thanks for the feed back.
Take care,
David

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  #152  
Unread 10-03-2020, 09:56 AM
rosegarden rosegarden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Phoenix View Post
Hello Rose,
The large or bulging eyes thing is more indicative of a Pisces Sun. While Pisces rules the feet it is Gemini that rules the hands. Small hands and feet can be a familial genotype and along with other things indicative of a Taurus ASC. Are your hands and feet proportionally smaller than the other members of your immediate family? Generally the
Jupiter(traditional) ruled Pisces is taller than average for their sex, race and / or ethnicity and family physiology would indicate.

SAG Sun possibly square PIS ASC, if close means your inner self and outer self are in conflict. Especially if your PIS Moon is also closely square your SAG Sun.

Thanks for the feed back.
Take care,
David

Oh okay, thank you very much for reply. I'm not very Professional at astrology so thank you for giving insight.

Yes, my sun squares my ascendant, thank you for explaining that too. It makes so much sense...

Take care too☺

(Could you tell other indicators of pisces ascendant? i also have black moon lilith in the 1st House, sun, Pluto and saturn square ascendant and moon conjunct ascendant.) You obviously don't have to but you seem to know so much so it'd be very interesting to hear. (:

Last edited by rosegarden; 10-03-2020 at 10:14 AM.
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  #153  
Unread 10-03-2020, 12:20 PM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

hi rosegarden,

What you describe is a mouthful. My recommendation is to forget anything beyond the basics such as imaginary planets. In reading your own chart stick to the KISS principle. Do not search for answers by filling your chart with imaginary friends.

Spend some time thinking about Pisces. What is the symbol? Two fish swimming in different directions yet linked together. What must that be like?

How about Sagittarius. A part man, part horse creature with a bow and arrow. It shoots the arrow and chases after it. Thereby finding himself in undiscovered territory.

Now rather than trying to chew that entire conglomeration of planets and ASC at once, break it down into manageable chunks. What you have is a first quarter square between the Moon and the Sun. Is the aspect less than 90* or more. If less it is more difficult to integrate because your response is more automatic to the challenges you face surrounding the Moon and Sun. If more then it is a bit easier because you have already faced the main part of the challenge and are now working on integration of the two energies represented by the pair.

You can do this for Saturn, Pluto and the Moon as well. You can also look at the Sun and whether it is end of cycle, that is earlier in degree than Saturn / Pluto or beginning cycle where the Sun is at later degree. Or a mix.These things have real and separate meanings.
Saturn is interpersonal, Pluto is generational.

Generally an opening square, first quarter moon, shows a conflict between the parents of the native during pregnancy. The child is of course exposed to this in the womb and may take the side of one parent over the other. This is very deep seated and may reflect your own inner turmoil.

Saturn of course represents the universal adult or parent. it is also linked to your own "dark side". You know, like the part Luke Skywalker did not want to face.

When the Moon and Saturn are linked by a hard aspect, especially a square, Saturn is telling you to stop whining and crying and GROW UP. Take responsibility for your life and actions. The Moon wants to be a baby forever nestling in the comfort of mommy's womb. With the Saturn conjunction to the Sun this is reinforced.

What is the closest square aspect involving a personal planet in your chart. Is it the sun / Moon square or the Moon with either Saturn or Pluto. This is also important. I have found that the closest square involving a personal planet in a person's chart will dominate most of their life struggles. To really understand your chart you must have a deep understanding of the planets. What do they represent? What is their place in your life experience?

Pluto will put you in a nuclear furnace and break you down to your constituent atoms so a new you can be reborn from the ashes of the old you. You know like the Phoenix myth.

All of this combined is tough to do and will not be accomplished over night but hopefully in your lifetime a lot can be accomplished.

Take care,
David
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  #154  
Unread 10-03-2020, 01:54 PM
rosegarden rosegarden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Phoenix View Post
hi rosegarden,

What you describe is a mouthful. My recommendation is to forget anything beyond the basics such as imaginary planets. In reading your own chart stick to the KISS principle. Do not search for answers by filling your chart with imaginary friends.

Spend some time thinking about Pisces. What is the symbol? Two fish swimming in different directions yet linked together. What must that be like?

How about Sagittarius. A part man, part horse creature with a bow and arrow. It shoots the arrow and chases after it. Thereby finding himself in undiscovered territory.

Now rather than trying to chew that entire conglomeration of planets and ASC at once, break it down into manageable chunks. What you have is a first quarter square between the Moon and the Sun. Is the aspect less than 90* or more. If less it is more difficult to integrate because your response is more automatic to the challenges you face surrounding the Moon and Sun. If more then it is a bit easier because you have already faced the main part of the challenge and are now working on integration of the two energies represented by the pair.

You can do this for Saturn, Pluto and the Moon as well. You can also look at the Sun and whether it is end of cycle, that is earlier in degree than Saturn / Pluto or beginning cycle where the Sun is at later degree. Or a mix.These things have real and separate meanings.
Saturn is interpersonal, Pluto is generational.

Generally an opening square, first quarter moon, shows a conflict between the parents of the native during pregnancy. The child is of course exposed to this in the womb and may take the side of one parent over the other. This is very deep seated and may reflect your own inner turmoil.

Saturn of course represents the universal adult or parent. it is also linked to your own "dark side". You know, like the part Luke Skywalker did not want to face.

When the Moon and Saturn are linked by a hard aspect, especially a square, Saturn is telling you to stop whining and crying and GROW UP. Take responsibility for your life and actions. The Moon wants to be a baby forever nestling in the comfort of mommy's womb. With the Saturn conjunction to the Sun this is reinforced.

What is the closest square aspect involving a personal planet in your chart. Is it the sun / Moon square or the Moon with either Saturn or Pluto. This is also important. I have found that the closest square involving a personal planet in a person's chart will dominate most of their life struggles. To really understand your chart you must have a deep understanding of the planets. What do they represent? What is their place in your life experience?

Pluto will put you in a nuclear furnace and break you down to your constituent atoms so a new you can be reborn from the ashes of the old you. You know like the Phoenix myth.

All of this combined is tough to do and will not be accomplished over night but hopefully in your lifetime a lot can be accomplished.

Take care,
David
Thank you so very much for this insightful analysis.
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  #155  
Unread 10-04-2020, 01:38 AM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

You are welcome.
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  #156  
Unread 10-04-2020, 07:57 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosegarden View Post
Oh okay, thank you very much for reply. I'm not very Professional at astrology so thank you for giving insight.

Yes, my sun squares my ascendant, thank you for explaining that too. It makes so much sense...

Take care too☺

(Could you tell other indicators of pisces ascendant? i also have black moon lilith in the 1st House, sun, Pluto and saturn square ascendant and moon conjunct ascendant.) You obviously don't have to but you seem to know so much so it'd be very interesting to hear. (:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121654

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


The image of the Fishes is feminine, nocturnal, double-bodied, watery, oceanic, notable, silent, fertile, passionate, missing limbs, two-coloured, mobile, lying and of the west wind. It indicates governorship, travel, wealth, water and summons. Depending on the placement of the houseruler, men born under the influence of Pisces are small, disproportioned and awkward, complicated because of the directions of the Fishes, changeable, restless, mystical, slight, wandering, popular, slightly sallow, delicate, with ruddy head, fish eyes, beautiful hair, soft hands, bright voice, white in complexion, traders, endowed with genius, unsteady, trustworthy, full of ideas, philosophers, commanders of fleets, marines, sailors and business expediters.

Domicile of Jupiter, exaltation of Venus, depression of Mercury, it controls the feet, the reproductive system, the digestive system and the integumentary system. It causes skin diseases on account of the rough skin. It is equinoctial, like-empowered with Virgo, like-ascending with Aquarius and like-engirding with Sagittarius, short in the Northern Hemisphere and tall in the Southern Hemisphere. It is vernal, hot and moist for the north, and autumnal, cold and dry for the south. Pisces controls Phazania, Nasamonitis, Garamantica, Lydia, Cilicia and Pamphylia. The southern fish body is rising up to the 12th degree, the southern fish tail up to the 16th, the southern cord up to the 19th degree, the northern fish up to the 28th, and the bond up to the 30th.

The first 12 belong to Venus - fertile, jealousy, with many enemies
The next 4 belong to Jupiter - advancement, elevation, commanding
The next 3 belong to Mercury - intelligence, well-grown, highly frivolous
The next 9 belong to Mars - violent, excessive, with many accusations
The final 2 belong to Saturn - virtuous, wise, dominant

Head of the Southern Fish - Mercury and moderately Saturn
Body of the Southern Fish - Jupiter and Mercury
Southern Tail and Cord - Saturn and moderately Mercury
Body of the Northern Fish - Jupiter and moderately Venus
Northern Cord - Saturn and Jupiter
Bond - Mars and moderately Mercury
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #157  
Unread 10-04-2020, 08:08 PM
Zeuses Zeuses is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

I am Virgo asc with Pluto in first and Uranus very close to asc. When I was younger people used to compliment my eyes. People also perceived me as intelligent and have an aura that is unusual and attractive (which I assume is Pluto). All in my younger days.
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  #158  
Unread 10-05-2020, 02:58 AM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

hi petosiris,
"Depending on the placement of the houseruler, men born under the influence of Pisces are small, disproportioned and awkward". I was unaware that the "ancient" Greeks used houses as we know them today. A little research shows that they did not. They did use something akin to houses based using the sign rising as the sign on the ASC. Thereafter, when adopted, it was equal houses. But there was no use of the exact degree of the rising sign as the ASC. The MC originally was of little consequence and not the cusp of the 10th house. Computing with some degree of accuracy the ASC and MC degree came later, in the early centuries of AD. Monk Placidus, in the 1200s AD, developed the math to calculate the house cusps using his system.

"the placement of the houseruler" by the old Greek system of houses would be an iffy proposition. "Depending on the placement of the houseruler, men born under the influence of Pisces are small, disproportioned and awkward". Is this true? I can think of one case where it is and one case where it is not.

I do not agree with 100% of the descriptions shown in your post. But that does not discount its value as an addition to knowledge about astrology.
Take care,
David
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  #159  
Unread 10-05-2020, 07:03 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Phoenix View Post
hi petosiris,
"Depending on the placement of the houseruler, men born under the influence of Pisces are small, disproportioned and awkward". I was unaware that the "ancient" Greeks used houses as we know them today. A little research shows that they did not. They did use something akin to houses based using the sign rising as the sign on the ASC. Thereafter, when adopted, it was equal houses. But there was no use of the exact degree of the rising sign as the ASC. The MC originally was of little consequence and not the cusp of the 10th house. Computing with some degree of accuracy the ASC and MC degree came later, in the early centuries of AD. Monk Placidus, in the 1200s AD, developed the math to calculate the house cusps using his system.

"the placement of the houseruler" by the old Greek system of houses would be an iffy proposition. "Depending on the placement of the houseruler, men born under the influence of Pisces are small, disproportioned and awkward". Is this true? I can think of one case where it is and one case where it is not.

I do not agree with 100% of the descriptions shown in your post. But that does not discount its value as an addition to knowledge about astrology.
Take care,
David
dr. farr re: the application of genuine whole sign methods

to chart delineation http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42085

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post



Cusps:


Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";


now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #160  
Unread 10-06-2020, 05:04 AM
David Phoenix David Phoenix is offline
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Re: Ascendant and Appearance - do they match up?

I agree. The concept and true meaning of cusp should be point. The word cusp has been used in literature to denote an instant in time when a crisis reached its peak and a decision had to be made and / or an action taken.
The space between the points becomes the houses. The cusps themselves represent an intense point of focus.

Many British astrologers adopted the equal house system using either the ASC or the MC, depending on what they wanted to know. They did this because the Placidus house calculation formula often produces two house / sign interceptions, especially in higher latitudes. One of the failings of Placidus is that the formula falls apart at latitudes greater than 66*33', the inverse of the degree of the plane of the ecliptic. Yet people are still born at these high latitudes and they must therefore have valid astrological charts.

Programmers with good backgrounds in spherical trigonometry have produced a work around formula to fix this discrepancy. Regardless of latitude there is always a MC, a point directly overhead. The problem is that there is no ASC at the higher latitudes. Commercial astro programs have the option to include the work around. If the option is not used the charts produced become quite peculiar with the ASC in the 4th house.

I always use a verified Spiritual Birth Time chart with Placidus houses and secondary progressions using the Naibod arc in Right Ascension. I have never found any other method that works.
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  #161  
Unread 10-08-2020, 12:01 PM
Zeuses Zeuses is offline
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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
dr. farr re: the application of genuine whole sign methods

to chart delineation http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42085
Beginners are likely to come across placidus first, particularly if they use a site like Astrodienst to draw a chart as it is the default on that and others. My ever first chart drawn up in the eighties was placidus too. Although I know that traditional astrologers tend to use what you have mentioned.
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