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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 01-30-2021, 09:35 AM
sailormoon1234 sailormoon1234 is offline
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Do different house systems change the chart?

Do different sites calculations, or house systems really affect the houses and change the chart that much?

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  #2  
Unread 01-30-2021, 08:42 PM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Generally, yes. It won't change planets' signs or aspects between planets, but they will sometimes end up in different houses. This is especially likely if you were born at a high latitude.

Astrodienst www.astro.com has many free chart options. If you go to their chart construction page after you've input your birth data, you will see a drop-down menu with many options for different house systems. It's fun to scroll through these and see if your planets change houses.

If they do, just reflect on which house system seems like the best match with your life experience in terms of the core meanings of planets in houses.
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  #3  
Unread 01-31-2021, 10:47 AM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormoon1234 View Post

Do different sites calculations, or house systems
really affect the houses
and change the chart that much?
Definitely

there is much mess and confusion in the area of the so-called "houses"

There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "...birthchart..."
into twelve segments of life activity.
In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains
represent general areas of life activity
and are the grounding areas
or arenas of expression for planets.


Originally, the words "...houses..." and "...signs..." were interchangeable
and so
any planet in the SIGN of Aries
was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect there were no real houses as we know them today



today however
the house location of a planet may change
DEPENDENT ON THE HOUSE SYSTEM CHOSEN


for example
Whole Sign House system:
ascendant sign becomes the whole first house
and the other houses follow.
ASCENDANT POINT ITSELF
can then fall anywhere in the first house
and
MIDHEAVEN POINT anywhere in the upper half of the chart.




Placidus is simply the default

ASTROSEEK offers WHOLE SIGN HOUSES calculation at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology


The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks
and the Hindus who still use it today
It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence
and immediately eliminates the awful mess
astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so
Artificial divisions now known as houses
were attempts by early Greeks and Hindus
to measure strength "...points..." in the horoscope
which during 7th and 8th centuries AD were construed
or confused
as means of dividing the birth chart.


for example
The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites
were definite power points or areas of intense focus
but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.





.
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  #4  
Unread 02-01-2021, 07:46 AM
sailormoon1234 sailormoon1234 is offline
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Thank you so much for the insightful response!

Is there a reason why Placidus is now used as the default house system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Definitely

there is much mess and confusion in the area of the so-called "houses"

There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "...birthchart..."
into twelve segments of life activity.
In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains
represent general areas of life activity
and are the grounding areas
or arenas of expression for planets.


Originally, the words "...houses..." and "...signs..." were interchangeable
and so
any planet in the SIGN of Aries
was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect there were no real houses as we know them today



today however
the house location of a planet may change
DEPENDENT ON THE HOUSE SYSTEM CHOSEN


for example
Whole Sign House system:
ascendant sign becomes the whole first house
and the other houses follow.
ASCENDANT POINT ITSELF
can then fall anywhere in the first house
and
MIDHEAVEN POINT anywhere in the upper half of the chart.




Placidus is simply the default

ASTROSEEK offers WHOLE SIGN HOUSES calculation at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology


The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks
and the Hindus who still use it today
It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence
and immediately eliminates the awful mess
astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so
Artificial divisions now known as houses
were attempts by early Greeks and Hindus
to measure strength "...points..." in the horoscope
which during 7th and 8th centuries AD were construed
or confused
as means of dividing the birth chart.


for example
The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites
were definite power points or areas of intense focus
but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.





.
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  #5  
Unread 02-01-2021, 07:46 AM
sailormoon1234 sailormoon1234 is offline
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Thank you so much for the insightful response!

Is there a reason why Placidus is now used as the default house system?
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  #6  
Unread 02-02-2021, 03:51 AM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormoon1234 View Post
Thank you so much for the insightful response!

Is there a reason why Placidus is now used as the default house system?
Once upon a time, there was no astrological computer software. Astrologers had to calculate horoscopes by hand, which involved a lot of tedious mathematics. Someone got the bright idea of publishing a table of house cusps for specific times and latitudes. Placidus was really the first widely published and available table of houses among the quadrant house systems. People who used Placidus generally thought it worked well, so it gained a wide following.

The non-quadrant house systems are whole signs, where each house starts at 0 degrees of the sign' and equal houses, where each house starts with the same degree as the ascendant.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #7  
Unread 02-05-2021, 12:19 AM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

A system can change the look of your chart but it won't change your actual LIFE.

IN other words, manipulating a chart so that you ''like'' it better will not keep all the challenges you face from your door.

And conversely, all the good luck.

LIN
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  #8  
Unread 02-05-2021, 09:06 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post
A system can change the look of your chart but it won't change your actual LIFE.

IN other words, manipulating a chart so that you ''like'' it better will not keep all the challenges you face from your door.

And conversely, all the good luck.

LIN
Oh dear; I'm nit-picking again.

I disagree with this view because the relevance of houses and planets in them denote 'the life realm' in which character traits will be most centralised. The traits may (or not) 'act out' their expression in the same manner through a sign, yet there is an enormous difference between house meanings. No two involve the same. Will a 12th house planet really act the same as a 1st, 5th, or 8th house situation does, without affecting the course life takes because of it?
Surely it is this distinction that is a major influence? Why, otherwise, would house realms be such an important part of interpretation? What would be their point?

Aspects between planets and their house realms also add their influence. don't they? Would the 7th-10th house square be less important if only a conflict in personal character caused the friction and not the domain(s) in/through which they occured and affected? Would how one approaches and handles that square conflict across an 8th-11th house be, and have the same effect on the course life took?

House systems may remain a contention in astrological debate, but is it really true to say that they don't have any effect upon, and 'won't change your actual life'???
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  #9  
Unread 03-01-2021, 01:30 AM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

I didn't come to this conclusion casually. Or quickly. I have had clients in the past who felt their time of birth was off. They didn't like the interpretations I gave. They felt I was ''accentuating the negative''.

NOw they didn't say I wasn't accurate ....just that they felt I was negative. So I decided that I needed to face this question.

I had friends and clients who had had very traumatic events in their lives....from early loss of parent, being adopted, losing a child....a lot of major issues.
There was also the question of ASC.
If I used a dawn chart or a noon chart, would the ''outcome'' of the interpretation conflict with the original?

No matter what times I used, what charts I used, the core interpretation of just about everything was the same. The houses might be different, true. But the rulers of the houses and THEIR aspects replaced the original data in the first interpretations.

No matter how I fooled around with the times and styles, the bottom line was the same. It didn't change the way the person would experience his/her life.

The chart is a hypothetical circle and the planets are representatives of impulses.
It's all symbolic. We need to look beyond the hypothetical ''lines'' of demarcation in the chart. There are no lines in the heavens. We use these lines so that WE can make sense out of what is unknowable any other way.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself with someone you know very well. But you have to be willing to go deeply into the delineation. You need to deconstruct it and see each detail before looking at whole pictures.
Don't get me wrong. In order to construct progressions, one must have a time chart.

Or do we? Yes, if we are trying to ''time'' events to weeks or even a month. But if we are looking for a trend change, we really don't need an exact time of birth. Often we don't HAVE an exact time.

There are knowables that are true no matter which chart style we use....no matter what time of day we use.

If you want to try this use the life of someone for whom you have an accurate time line. See the transits which were activated at the important times of that person's life.

Then use noon. Redo the chart and put those same transits on for those defining dates and I think you will see the SAME outcome.

You could use someone who died too young - maybe tragically. Someone with a dramatic life where the dates of dramatic and important happenings are of public record...like JFK or Princess Diana...
I could never believe that Princess Diana would still be alive if we used a different style of chart to study her life.
And in the same way the dramatic events in our lives, our personal challenges don't change depending upon the chart system we use.

Think about this.....
LIN
I'd just like to add one thing: I am reminded of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on the symbolic ....and that often we err by getting ''caught up in the metaphor.'' I think we need to realize that astrology is NOT an ''occult'' art.
It's a process of reading metaphorical images to reflect the reality of a person's life. What is SO will be true no matter which chart style we use. The best way to read it correctly is to have a LOT of experience doing so.
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Last edited by Lin; 03-01-2021 at 07:31 PM.
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  #10  
Unread 03-03-2021, 01:04 AM
sailormoon1234 sailormoon1234 is offline
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Very fascinating! Would it be best then to just calculate a chart without houses?

So is there an online calculator that eliminates the houses completely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post
I didn't come to this conclusion casually. Or quickly. I have had clients in the past who felt their time of birth was off. They didn't like the interpretations I gave. They felt I was ''accentuating the negative''.

NOw they didn't say I wasn't accurate ....just that they felt I was negative. So I decided that I needed to face this question.

I had friends and clients who had had very traumatic events in their lives....from early loss of parent, being adopted, losing a child....a lot of major issues.
There was also the question of ASC.
If I used a dawn chart or a noon chart, would the ''outcome'' of the interpretation conflict with the original?

No matter what times I used, what charts I used, the core interpretation of just about everything was the same. The houses might be different, true. But the rulers of the houses and THEIR aspects replaced the original data in the first interpretations.

No matter how I fooled around with the times and styles, the bottom line was the same. It didn't change the way the person would experience his/her life.

The chart is a hypothetical circle and the planets are representatives of impulses.
It's all symbolic. We need to look beyond the hypothetical ''lines'' of demarcation in the chart. There are no lines in the heavens. We use these lines so that WE can make sense out of what is unknowable any other way.

If you don't believe me, try it yourself with someone you know very well. But you have to be willing to go deeply into the delineation. You need to deconstruct it and see each detail before looking at whole pictures.
Don't get me wrong. In order to construct progressions, one must have a time chart.

Or do we? Yes, if we are trying to ''time'' events to weeks or even a month. But if we are looking for a trend change, we really don't need an exact time of birth. Often we don't HAVE an exact time.

There are knowables that are true no matter which chart style we use....no matter what time of day we use.

If you want to try this use the life of someone for whom you have an accurate time line. See the transits which were activated at the important times of that person's life.

Then use noon. Redo the chart and put those same transits on for those defining dates and I think you will see the SAME outcome.

You could use someone who died too young - maybe tragically. Someone with a dramatic life where the dates of dramatic and important happenings are of public record...like JFK or Princess Diana...
I could never believe that Princess Diana would still be alive if we used a different style of chart to study her life.
And in the same way the dramatic events in our lives, our personal challenges don't change depending upon the chart system we use.

Think about this.....
LIN
I'd just like to add one thing: I am reminded of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on the symbolic ....and that often we err by getting ''caught up in the metaphor.'' I think we need to realize that astrology is NOT an ''occult'' art.
It's a process of reading metaphorical images to reflect the reality of a person's life. What is SO will be true no matter which chart style we use. The best way to read it correctly is to have a LOT of experience doing so.
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  #11  
Unread 03-04-2021, 08:43 PM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

No...but I have done this in my research. I put in the 4 angles and just put in the planets in the approx space they would ordinarily go in a chart with the houses constructed.

It is a theoretical exercise.

there are many ways to read a chart. That exercise is to minimalize the number of symbols.
You can also read a chart by using the maximum of symbols...braking down the ruler of the houses and the planets IN the houses into decanates and THEIR ruler. I love this exercise. It removes a lot of guesswork but is time intensive.

YOu can actually read a chart many many ways...but....the bottom line should always tell the same basic story.
LIN
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Last edited by Lin; 03-04-2021 at 08:46 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 03-28-2021, 02:29 AM
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Question Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Sometimes, comparing your natal charts based on different house systems will have different outcomes and forecasts. Placidus or Koch is like the variation of Tropical vs Sidereal, or Traditional vs Modern. Either I follow a chart where the houses are divided in each 17' 33" degree of a sign (that happens to be mine) or a system having uneven lengths of the 12 houses comprised of my chart.
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Unread 03-28-2021, 12:57 PM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

You don't have to use house systems. Ptolemy's body of work implies that they are irrational and not based on sound astrological logic/astronomical phenomenon.
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Unread 03-28-2021, 01:03 PM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormoon1234 View Post

Thank you so much for the insightful response!



Is there a reason why Placidus is now used as the default house system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
You don't have to use house systems.
Ptolemy's body of work implies that they are irrational
and not based on sound astrological logic/astronomical phenomenon.
There has to be a default






.
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  #15  
Unread 03-28-2021, 01:11 PM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormoon1234 View Post


Very fascinating!
Would it be best then to just calculate a chart without houses?
Houses add important detail
The astrological houses define the exact areas of your life
your horoscope is referring to
For instance, each house represents something different
and determines different types of people, places,
and
life circumstances encountered
Astrological houses rule different areas of our lives
from relationships with others
to personal milestones

.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 03-28-2021, 01:17 PM
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailormoon1234 View Post


So is there an online calculator that eliminates the houses completely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

Definitely

BECAUSE

Originally
"...houses..."
and
"...signs..."
were interchangeable
and so


any planet in the SIGN of Aries
was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries


so that in effect there were no real houses as we know them today


Whole Sign House system:
ascendant sign becomes the whole first house
and the other houses follow.
ASCENDANT POINT ITSELF
can then fall anywhere in the first house
and
MIDHEAVEN POINT anywhere in the upper half of the chart.


ASTROSEEK offers WHOLE SIGN HOUSES calculation at https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/traditional-astrology





WHOLE SIGN HOUSE simply one whole sign = one whole house



.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #17  
Unread 03-30-2021, 11:09 PM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Do different house systems change the chart?

I don't think you can learn astrology without using some house system.

BUT....after a few decades the information in a chart is interpreted in the mind in a different way from the way one interpreted it as a novice. You have an intuition from so much experience.

Kind of the way you would learn to speak in another language. In the beginning you have to learn nouns,verbs, and other sentence structure and it can be very labor intensive plus you have to speak that language every day or you will never learn it.

But once you know the language ''fluently'' it's different. You don't think about every word and sentence structure. You also understand the nuances.

Same with the language of astrology.

LIN
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