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  #1  
Unread 07-24-2011, 11:04 PM
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Exclamation Intolerance

What aspect/house/sign combination is behind intolerance towards others?
Racism, hatred against the mentally/physically ill and so on?

After returning from Norway the day the bombing happened, this is all I have been thinking about.

Never in my life would I look down upon another person because of their nationality/background or the cards they have been dealt with in life, but Im increasingly becoming aware that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy being this way -- Anders Breivik being a good example.

Im looking for combinations of planets/houses and so on, not one aspect in particular -- since that doesn't work.

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Unread 07-25-2011, 03:46 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Sun mars aspects, especially square and oppositions.
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Unread 07-26-2011, 03:52 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Sun/Mars aspect but in what house/sign? An aspect alone means very little if the rest of the chart is not taken into consideration, which is what Im looking for in here. If astrologers believe that everything can be seen in a chart, then intolerance must be seen as well, right? Should fixed stars be looked at?
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Unread 07-26-2011, 08:55 PM
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Re: Intolerance

nationalism is 4th house, cancer
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Unread 08-04-2011, 09:55 PM
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Re: Intolerance

I don't believe that everything can be seen in the chart. I also don't believe that people enjoy being bigoted - they are just stuck in a rut of ignorance.

Prejudice is often linked to Saturn and Chiron, because where these planets touch the chart is where we feel wounded, and therefore where we put up defences to alleviate the pain. Contempt for others is a common defence whereby we attribute to an individual or a group qualities which we deem to be inferior because we cannot face our own feelings of inadequacy around these qualities. Scape-goating is a similar mechanism.

I think apart from the 4th house, the 11th can be relevant too - showing how we align ourselves with groups. If we do this in a manner contaminated by fear, we may feel our group is threatened by another group. I guess Moon and Uranus are relevant too for similar reasons.

Pluto is often involved with intolerance, because it brings a life-or-death intensity to any fears we have, and we may believe that we need to destroy another group before it destroys us.

The fearfulness of Saturn, Chiron and Pluto, the potential unfeeling fanaticism of Uranus, and the clannish tendencies of the Moon are perhaps the things to look for generally. But I think the chart as a whole adds light to what kind of values are embraced and which are fought against after being projected onto the victim group.

I don't think the Sun or Mars are inherently prone to prejudice, especially the Sun, although I guess stressful aspects to these planets often make one feel that one must stand up for oneself against pressure from the environment. But in themselves they just want to get on with doing their own thing, regardless of what anyone else is doing. Whereas Saturn, Chiron and Pluto are inherently defensive.

I'm very interested in any other views on this.
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Unread 08-04-2011, 10:17 PM
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Re: Intolerance

I was trying to think of a racist (besides Hitler) and came up with George Wallace, a white supremicist and governor of Alabama during the days of the civil rights movement.

I was thinking Saturn must have a lot to do with intolerance, but wow! note the 2nd house ("what you value") moon in Leo conjunct the exact sun-Saturn. Then these oppose Uranus in Aquarius as the tip of a yod formation.

Clearly this man identified (sun) with a set of traditional (Saturn) values (2nd house), which he saw as under siege (opposition) by disruptive forces of a new and unwanted order (Uranus in Aquarius.)
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Unread 08-04-2011, 10:17 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeler View Post
What aspect/house/sign combination is behind intolerance towards others?
Racism, hatred against the mentally/physically ill and so on?

After returning from Norway the day the bombing happened, this is all I have been thinking about.

Never in my life would I look down upon another person because of their nationality/background or the cards they have been dealt with in life, but Im increasingly becoming aware that there are a lot of people out there who enjoy being this way -- Anders Breivik being a good example.

Im looking for combinations of planets/houses and so on, not one aspect in particular -- since that doesn't work.


I always thought intolerance, bigotry, self-righteousness, all that kind of stuff was the domain of an afflicted Jupiter/Sag.
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Unread 08-04-2011, 10:20 PM
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Re: Intolerance

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
I don't believe that everything can be seen in the chart. I also don't believe that people enjoy being bigoted - they are just stuck in a rut of ignorance.
I think some people do enjoy it. They get a sense of pleasure and power from feeling like there's someone beneath them that they can step on, that they aren't at the bottom of the heap.
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Unread 08-04-2011, 11:58 PM
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Re: Intolerance

We know that a very strong Sagg. or 9th influence or Jupiter leads to mental exploration; especially everything and everyone which is different; searching for new experiences. So turn that around - an afflicted 9th house (planets) and a prominent but afflicted Jupiter.

Imagine a Mercury or Venus in Sagg. or 9th that are very afflicted - all that open-mindedness becomes narrow-mindedness and bigotry and racism etc.

Just one of many, many possibilities I think...
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Unread 08-05-2011, 01:50 PM
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Re: Intolerance

That's a really interesting example Waybread. and Uranus is in the 8th house of other people's values and the sharing of resources - and the crises that can result when values clash and resources are deemed to be scarce. Maybe his ideologies were influenced by his 8th house fear of losing control, or, as you say, he was fighting an ideology which threatened what he saw as a crisis, but others thankfully saw as a healthy transformation. And that Moon is his chart ruler. Pisces is on the 9th cusp too. The Neptune influence could be about fanatacism too, as well as him being a voice for collective race-based feelings of fear that were prevalent in many of that era.

And Jupiter seems important also, as you were saying Ruka5. Its on his Mars/Neptune midpoint as well as being in the stellium with them in the 1st house. I wonder if his beliefs arose from tension between Mars and Neptune - like he had to prove his potency through them, projecting his Neptunian dependency upon another race, which he then has to keep in a state of dependency and weakness in order that he can maintain his self-image.

I would say the stellium of Sun Moon Saturn opposite Uranus across the 2nd 8th axis is the main source of racial intolerance though, especially with the Sun and Moon ruling most of the chart.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 02:18 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Hopefully I've just attached the chart of Enoch Powell, who was an MP who campaigned against immigration into Britain after the 2nd world war.

His Capricorn ascendant with Saturn in the 4th house, plus angular Moon in Cancer, suggest a traditionalist who was defensive of his homeland. The Moon Neptune conjunction perhaps caused him to idealise his origins, but then again with Moon and Neptune in the 7th house of open enemies, with Moon also ruling the descendant, may have been experienced by him as something uncontrollable leaking into his predictable and ordered Capricornian world.

The tight Sun Mercury conjunction is conjunct his Saturn/Neptune midpoint, emphasising either idealised structures, or fear of structures being undermined. His Moon is exactly conjunct his Sun/Mars midpoint, so his sense of potency and purpose as an individual were perhaps heavily influenced by clannish feelings.

Sun and Mercury are also conjunct Pluto, suggesting power-struggles, and also the powerful rhetoric of which he was capable. Mars is semisquare Sun, Mercury, Sun/Pluto and Mercury/Pluto.

Another one that interests me is Pluto square Moon/Jupiter, with Jupiter close to and ruling the 11th house of groups.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this chart??
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File Type: jpg Enoch Powell.jpg (72.6 KB, 7 views)
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Last edited by miquar; 08-05-2011 at 07:50 PM.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 02:21 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Sorry that image is terrible. I'll have a go at doing it through astrodeinst later, or if anyone wants the data, its:

21:50 GMT
16th June 1912
Stetchford, Birmingham, UK
52N29 1W54
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Unread 08-05-2011, 03:20 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
We know that a very strong Sagg. or 9th influence or Jupiter leads to mental exploration; especially everything and everyone which is different; searching for new experiences. So turn that around - an afflicted 9th house (planets) and a prominent but afflicted Jupiter.

Imagine a Mercury or Venus in Sagg. or 9th that are very afflicted - all that open-mindedness becomes narrow-mindedness and bigotry and racism etc.

Just one of many, many possibilities I think...
I also agree that sadly some people do actually enjoy racist, bigoted opinions. :-(

I get infuriated by small minded bigotry, and is possibly the only time I will fly into passionate action/defense of others.

I have mercury and venus in saggitarius squaring a virgo pluto/uranus/mars in 2nd house of values, with jupiter prominent in 9th house (equal house system) making a trine to the virgo pluto/uranus/mars.
I technically then have all the ingredients for intolerance - perhaps the trine to jupiter makes me defend people under attack from racists, etc

After saying that, I have been accused (and I know I am) completely intolerant of ignorance and idiots, although I have got better as I have aged.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 06:05 PM
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Re: Intolerance

There were two books that adolf hitler read while in prison. One of which was by henry t ford a famous anti semite.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 06:06 PM
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Re: Intolerance

I didn't know anything about Enoch Powell (living on the other side of The Pond) but I looked up his biography in Wikipedia. An interesting guy--to the point where it's too bad his views on immigration overshadowed the rest of his career. As the article pointed out, his views mirrored those of many of his countrymen--and possibly still do, today. In fact, racists can become politically powerful by "riding the horse in the direction it's going."

Powell came from lower-middle class origins with humble roots, yet became a full professor of Classics at age 25. He had a faculty appointment in Australia--back when the UK university jobs were reserved for men with higher class origins. You'd think someone bucking the British class system of his generation might have become a Liberal, but his attitude seems to have been to join, to some degree master the system, and to support the status quo.

Also, a lot of men of his generation totally supported the notion of the British empire. They were happy to see British subjects settling in the colonies, but it wasn't supposed to work the other way.

He has four planets dignified in their own signs: Mercury, moon, Jupiter, and Uranus. Generally people like this can go far in their lives, as Powell did.

The sun conjunct Pluto indicates an identification with both radical transformation of the self (which he did through his careerism) and power struggles. The moon-/Neptune indicates an idealist, but also someone inclined to fight imaginary enemies.

I would detect conservative beliefs about his homeland in the Saturn in Taurus in the 4th.

I don't quite get the 5th house sun, but if its on the cusp of the 6th, that bespeaks service. In his case public service.
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Last edited by waybread; 08-05-2011 at 06:09 PM.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 08:04 PM
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Re: Intolerance

That's really interesting stuff waybread. I didn't know most of it. I wonder if he felt very inadequate about his origins, or because he didn't feel valued for himself by his parents, and that's why he was so ambitious. As well as Saturn in Taurus he has Chiron on the 2nd house cusp, and Chiron is exactly (to the minute) square his Mercury/Saturn midpoint, suggesting that he might try to overcome his sense of inadequacy through academic achievement. Uranus is exactly to the minute square Mercury/Chiron.
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Last edited by miquar; 08-05-2011 at 09:21 PM. Reason: mistake
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Unread 08-05-2011, 09:26 PM
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Re: Intolerance

I think if someone has four planets in the signs they rule, he is going to be a powerhouse. How he expresses those strengths depends not only on other chart factors, but also on his life circumstances. I think Britain in the early and mid-20th century was pretty racist--unconsciously so, perhaps, but they were creatures of their time and place. Powell's "River of Blood" speech gained notoriety because of his stature in British politics.

In terms of the George Wallace chart I posted, of course the South during the first 60+ years of the 20th century was governed by legalized segregation: the so-called Jim Crow Laws. Most white southerners supported them. As the civil rights movement gathered momentum, Wallace became an emblem of racism because of his political stature and adherance to older norms. But many of his fellow segregationists thought the same way he did.

Racism is often widespread within a population. What is interesting about Wallace and Powell was how they became identified as leaders of an old order that was being seriously challenged, and ultimately forced to change. Their notoriety came about largely because they were becoming anachronisms.
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Last edited by waybread; 08-05-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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Unread 08-05-2011, 09:39 PM
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Re: Intolerance

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I think if someone has four planets in the signs they rule, he is going to be a powerhouse. How he expresses those strengths depends not only on other chart factors, but also on his life circumstances. I think Britain in the early and mid-20th century was pretty racist--unconsciously so, perhaps, but they were creatures of their time and place. Powell's "River of Blood" speech gained notoriety because of his stature in British politics.
I have heard so many, many, many great things about positive immigration stories in Britain today, especially London. I think it's changed.

I'm afriad it's been my experience that so far, that people from many European countries that I've met, which had a former empire, seem to have a sense of affirmation with conquering - even today!! As a native of a small country with a long history of being pushed around by bully-empires, I'm extremely angered when confronted with that kind of intolerance - lack of respect for liberty, and everyone's right to it. Worse still, as a very, very political person I'm disillusioned to see many of Europe's champion human rights have disolved to a race of largest population, economy or army since the beginning of the financial crisis in 2007. It seems like we've learned nothing; the going gets tough and the doors close...
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Unread 08-06-2011, 12:53 AM
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Re: Intolerance

Good point, byjove. It has been said that Ireland was England's first colony. And arguably its most mismanaged one. But if any population is resilient in the face of overwhelmingly bad odds, it would seem to be the Irish.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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Unread 08-06-2011, 02:58 AM
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Re: Intolerance

I know people who have sun trine uranus and they are very accepting of people from all walks of life. They see what is different in others and embrace it rather than shun or look down on it.

Also Sun in positive aspect to jupiter would make someone easy to get along with.

I would think maybe if mars or saturn (the malefics) had a negative aspect with a planet that could cause anger or aggression towards others. Or the 9th house has to do with foreign places, travelling , so if that is afflicted then that could play a part.
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Unread 08-06-2011, 03:23 AM
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Re: Intolerance

Check hard combos between Sun, Mars, Uranus, Saturn, and Pluto (those are the most SELFISH and less tolerant Planets, as their own signs)

Sun is egocentric and insolent
Mars is quarrelsome and lacks of tact
Uranus wants to do everything as its own way no matter what others say, Saturn is selfish and gets annoyed easily
and Pluto fights until destroys anything it hates

eg. (squares, oppositions, conjunctions)
sun-mars, sun-uranus, mars-uranus, mars-pluto, mars-saturn, saturn-pluto, uranus-pluto.
No matter the sign of the planet... the intolerance will manifest according to the nature of the planet's sign.
This ones above describe intolerance in general in a Natal chart.


Racism: I say is about Saturn with Pluto in the 9th or aspecting the ruler.
(religion, philosophy, and things different from you) when it is badly aspected. Or when any of the aspects I mentioned are made in the 9th house. Specially the Pluto and Saturn ones.
I bet that a heavily aspected Saturn in the 9th will show aberration toward people of different ethnicity from yours... as well as remarked religious orthodoxy. Lack of spirituality, and fear for the different and the unknown... Specially if Pluto is involved. Saturn dark side is fear and blockages... plus the Plutonian dark side obsession, narrowness, and destruction. Pluto will narrow even more Saturn's fears...... In Mars case I will say It will make Saturn even more impatient, and Mars will be more aggressive toward 9th house stuff.



There are different kinds of intolerance, One "intelligent" and one "not intelligent"! There is intelligent intolerance (to things the worth such intolerance), and immature and spoiled intolerance (like racism, bullying, classicism, etc)
I can be intolerant as hell to people who trow garbage in the street. Or I can be intolerant with people who is intolerant with people of other race, culture, social class.


It depends on you level of SELF EVOLVEMENT and SPIRITUALITY you can achieve to determine if you are intolerant toward situations that worth it, and situations that don't worth it.

To verify the level of self evolvement and spirituality, you can check the quality of Your Moon, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Neptune and their respective houses.

But I say any kind of intolerance is a feature of immatureness perhaps.

Last edited by virgo18; 08-06-2011 at 03:40 AM.
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Unread 08-06-2011, 07:14 PM
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Re: Intolerance

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I know people who have sun trine uranus and they are very accepting of people from all walks of life. They see what is different in others and embrace it rather than shun or look down on it.
I love this! ( here.)
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 08-06-2011, 09:19 PM
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Re: Intolerance

One of my sisters have that Sun trine Uranus - exact. She does not embrace it well. She is not that open to new people or difference, and not foreign people or places. Maybe accepting - in the nearby environment. It drives me crazy - I've lived in a few countries and studied many languages, and I like it that way! I've Sun trine Uranus (5 degrees) but Sun trine Saturn exact. I think the embracers in my chart are Mercury trine ASC (exact) and Mercury and Venus in the 9th (Pisces). Even nice Sun trines need back-up in the chart.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 05:54 AM
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Re: Intolerance

I recently came across someone who too easily assumed intolerance in others, but seemed unable to really hear what they were actually saying, and also got very freaked out by the possibility of this being raised and challenged.

This person has Aquarius rising, but in this case, Mercury is setting in Leo, with Sun in Leo in the 7th close by. Other interesting things in the chart include a very close Jupiter Saturn conjunction in the 8th house, and a Moon Pluto conjunction also in the 8th house, with the Moon ruling Mars in Cancer. Uranus is near the MC on the 9th house side and therefore in a Guaquelin zone of alleged increased strength. The Jupiter Saturn conjunction is sextile and trine to the ascendant Mercury opposition, showing that trines don't automatically bring out the best and can reflect a rut which the person feels no need to challenge.
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Last edited by miquar; 08-08-2011 at 05:55 AM. Reason: spelling
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