Another look at the 12th house

cassanra said:

Key words I have picked up on here for the 12th
-Unclear images
-victim
-vague memories
-need to develop faith
-dream state
-need for privacy
-others drain
These are words that people have found for themselves describing their experience of the 12th house....
this helps me a great deal....since it is so 'vague'

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I don't know how it is for other 12th house people, but for me, a big thing is a great love for sleeping. I prefer nighttime over daytime, too, though, staying up late and sleeping long whenever possible and when life permits. Any other 12th house people who love sleeping, or need their sleep very much?

gimzo23, I have sun in the 12th house and I totally understand you - I need at least 7-8 hours heavy sleep and I often go to sleep at 3-4am. The time I am most active is between 7pm and 3am. But I have to disagree on some things stated about people with planets in 12th house. In my case I don't feel victim and my images of past events are unusually clear. I tend to remember things said and done which my friends and family don't. Yes, I am a private person and I spend a lot of time reflecting on the things that have happened to me, constantly looking for answers. Still, it is really hard for me to understand the 12th house. Undoing oneself seems a bit troublesome for me. Being a leo with leo ascendant and with abundance of earth element, I have a very clear image of what I want, I'm self-assertive and goal-oriented and this 12th-house sun means exactly the opposite of what I really want. The only way I see it, is that maybe in the course of my life it will come gradually as a lesson to me.

I have Saturn in the 12th, and have followed my young audlt daughter's life with interest: she has her sun and Mercury in the 12th.

I agree that 12th house people need their privacy. Traditionally the 12th rules shut-ins, notably people confined to hospitals, prisons, or monestaries. Well, obviously most of the millions of people with strong 12th houses are not sick,in jail, or under holy orders, but I think they need their solitude.

In terms of "self-undoing", one can trace the meaning of the sun through the 12 houses to get some comparison. In the 2nd house, one identifies with money, possessions, or values; in the 7th house, with one's marriage/partnership; in the 10th, with one's career/public image, and so on. But the 12th house ends this cycle, and was traditionally associated with the end of life (though the 8th plays a role in traditional astrology here, also.) It consequently was regarded as misfortunate, something that modern astrologers thankfully ignore. But the 12th is where the energies of whatever planets are there get "undone"--if the sun, in a Neptunian kind of way, it is one's ego that gets dissolved.

Now 12th house people are not necessarily shy loners: many famous political leaders have 12th house suns! But they do best by identifying with a cause greater than themselves, which might be their constituents, political principles, or their party.

Leo planets in the 12th at first glance would seem out of place here, but Leo as a leader does well by identifying with some greater cause that attracts other people to it. For example, Hilary Clinton has a strong 12th house. Love her or hate her, but her presidential campaign speeches indicate that she thought she was running in support of ordinary American citizens.

Of course some people struggle with the 12th house, in that they would prefer to identify with their career, friends, or hobbies. But life seems to go better for them when they identify with an altruistic purpose. Especially with any kind of 6th house emphasis, service to others will often bring the recognition denied by focussing on the affairs of other houses. This is why some of the great humanitarians like Mother Teresa have had strong 12th houses.

Dutch astrologer Karen Hamaker-Zondag wrote that 12th house planets indicate that one's mother had a difficult labour and post-partum experience. This was not true in my daughter's case, however.

I believe that when you don't allow yourself to plumb the depths of your 12th, it becomes the "house of undoing"...because that's where your spiritual center is. I believe Jesus said it in one of the "lost books" of the Bible, something to the effect that if you express what is within you, it can save you but if you don't allow it expression, it can destroy you. Not in those exact words, but that's the gist. From the charts I've seen on Jesus, he would know about Pisces and the 12th...he had a big stellum there.

And now everything makes sense.

But the 12th is where the energies of whatever planets are there get "undone"--if the sun, in a Neptunian kind of way, it is one's ego that gets dissolved.

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As Uranus has been transiting my 12th I wonder if it implies that energy for me ....uranus energy connected so strongly with mars/venus in the 5th for me...has been undone?. I have always been prone to rash impulsive reactions and maybe this transit has affected that energy..?
Now with Neptune, chiron and jupiter transiting my 12th maybe I will see wounds dissolve?
Does that sound right?

cassanra said:

And now everything makes sense.
As Uranus has been transiting my 12th I wonder if it implies that energy for me ....uranus energy connected so strongly with mars/venus in the 5th for me...has been undone?. I have always been prone to rash impulsive reactions and maybe this transit has affected that energy..?
Now with Neptune, chiron and jupiter transiting my 12th maybe I will see wounds dissolve?
Does that sound right?

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Maybe this is a good time to re-examine your spiritual beliefs. If you are a religious person, Uranus may disrupt your belief system. If you are not at all religious, a Uranian surprise could come in the form of sudden, unexpected inspiration. Jupiter rules theology, and Chiron suggests gaining deeper wisdom through one's previous sorrows. Supposedly many spiritual leaders have 12th house emphases. I think this relates to both the confinement and altruistic nature of this house. A cause greater than oneself might well be spiritual.

waybread said:

But life seems to go better for them when they identify with an altruistic purpose. Especially with any kind of 6th house emphasis, service to others will often bring the recognition denied by focussing on the affairs of other houses. This is why some of the great humanitarians like Mother Teresa have had strong 12th houses.

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I have noticed this with my son, in that since he embraced an altruistic approach to everything - what I call a Bigger Picture view - then he has seemed more comfortable with his 6th house Chiron - which has tended to overwhelm him health-wise.

waybread said:

Dutch astrologer Karen Hamaker-Zondag wrote that 12th house planets indicate that one's mother had a difficult labour and post-partum experience. This was not true in my daughter's case, however.

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Very true of both my 12th house sun brothers, as well as my nephew, but not for my son's birth.
I associate difficult labour/birth with either Capricorn rising, or Saturn conj ascendant. Saturn in 12th conj Asc usually denotes a difficult labour and/or pregnancy, while Saturn in 1st conj Asc can indicate labour and the aftermath - perhaps up to a couple of months of age.

gimzo23 said:

I don't know how it is for other 12th house people, but for me, a big thing is a great love for sleeping. I prefer nighttime over daytime, too, though, staying up late and sleeping long whenever possible and when life permits. Any other 12th house people who love sleeping, or need their sleep very much?

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Same here with regards to sleeping.... but for me it's a matter of staying up very late and working on something I love to do untik I can't keep my eyes open and concentration in gear, and then I love to just pass out onto the most comfy bed, comforter, and pillows I have (Jupiter and Venus conjunction in Pisces straddle my ascendant--a love of all things pleasurably soft). When I wake up, I usually like to just lie there for about an hour, or turn on the TV by remote and see if anything interesting is on while I lay in bed.

But yeah, I am definitely a night owl.

Another interesting bit of info is that I read of an astrologer who did the charts of hospital employees once when she had to stay overnight. As it turned out, every single employee who pulled a graveyard shift had their sun in the 12th house. Wild stuff.

quoted from waybread:
It consequently was regarded as misfortunate, something that modern astrologers thankfully ignore. But the 12th is where the energies of whatever planets are there get "undone"--if the sun, in a Neptunian kind of way, it is one's ego that gets dissolved.

Waybread, you've given me some insight here....my Aquarian Mars is in the 12th (but close to the 11th cusp). In my case, it's my energy that's getting dissolved. It's not mine...it belongs to humanity.

The 12th house is very interesting and I would like to talk about my experiences with it. I have the Sun and Saturn in my natal 12th house. I have heard that having saturn in the 12th helps greatly to stablize the effects of other planets there in. Saturn is in its joy in the 12th because Saturn is comfortable in the dark, depressing, dissolving nature that it brings to the table. Thank goodness for me First off, I love just chilling by myself at my house and recharging from other people. I would expect alot of agoraphobics to have a strong 12th house influence. You know, people that dont leave there homes. Saturn gives me a hand in not feeling as bad as I could feel sometimes. Much of life does seem so depressing. And Saturn here seems to help me feel not so helpless. Saturn is good with creating walls in us and structure seems to be a good thing in Pisces's domain, the house of illusions and deceptions. I know without Saturn in my 12th house my sun placement there would be alittle more disturbed. The sun in the 12th I wouldnt say is all that bad for me. It does seem that I let life pass me by. Not to seem depressed or anything but were all the same and everybody bleeds which is why status is not important to me. I beleave your here to overcome your negitives and evolve your soul. Quick evolvloutin of the soul comes with suffering. And although its very lousy to suffer you are evolving. What if people thought they were lucky to suffer? I am a double sagg but alot of my sagg influence seems to be lessened due to Saturn. I m more resevered,less outgoing and conservative then most other saggs. Its doesnt get entirely destory tho considering I'm still very blunt, honest, and fun loving. Unlike another post on this thread I love watching tv. Of course at my house, alone. I watch alot of those dating shows on VH1 and Mtv. And I would say its very easy to spot the people that are there for Tila tequila, bret michaels, diasy, or new york. If you know what i m saying. The people that are there to further themselves by being on camera not the ones that are actually there to find love. Fake and real are every day words in my vocabulary. My 12th house sun friend also agrees on alot of my choices of "fake people." The Sun in the 12th I hear defuses the ego. I have a hard time understanding this sentance sometimes, but its always in my mind to figure out. Donald trump has his sun and saturn in his 12th which gives me hope on the material success end of it. George bush with his sun and saturn in the 12th got him far but he will always have that look on his face that he is hiding sometime. I Know judging a person on the way they look may be "wrong" but you project how you feel and what you are on the inside on the outside. therefore its easy for me to get a feel of what a person is like. There is some self pity that goes on with the 12th house influcence also. People with 12th house influences need to focus less on all the negatives that life has granted them and cheer up a bit. This would probably be my best advice to give to some. Remember the 12th house is pisces domain the sign of the escapist. We have to face what we dont want to face sometimes.

side discussion, to all

all,

During this post on the 12th house a side-discussion came up about how much a person's chart affects that person's chart interpretations. If you are interested in following up on this discussion, please go to:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16300

If you have something to share that is about the nature of the 12th house, please post it here.

Moderately,

Tim

piscesascendant said:

(ahem) http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_dgtwehouse_e.htm

I am aware of the traditional name. Tradition is due for an astrology makeover

What planets or influences are in your chart's 12th house?

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I dont have no planet's in the 12th house but I do have Cancer in the 12th house cusp which means that sometime's when the moon is in cancer i usually get visionary flashes of biblical verse. I do check the moon's aspects and the majority of the time it's not doing any aspects with neptune. but i guess u could say i was born some what psychic.

German Astrologer Wolfgang Dobereiner interprets the twelfth house as the house where you can expect "the dissolution of the bonds of conformity" or "self dissolution"
In other words it can be looked at as the last evolutionary stage of a developmental process of becoming.

If you've ever had a extended involvement with a Pisces whose natural home is the twelfth house, you have probably noticed that they are definitely a very kind and compassionate sign, but when observed more closely you will see that they do not or are unable to regulate or discipline others but rather give people enough rope to hang themselves. They are quite permissive by nature, because they are in the phase of development that can could be termed The Art of Detachment which takes place in the twelfth house.

Living in the twelfth house will help a person of any sign to remove himself emotionally from difficult involvements. In fact it is as easy as breathing for them. But naturally a Pisces will do it better. Pisces' ruling planet Neptune acts as an anesthetic enabling them to withstand the most painful of experiences that would make other signs cave in.

This is not to say that all Pisces are ready to ascend into heaven but developmentally they are trying to. Depending on their stage of development they will try to ascend either through the use of drugs, alchohol or via a spiritual path.

I have Venus conjunct Mars in my 12th house. Lilith is also in my 12th house.

I’ve come to some conclusions that 12th house energy causes one to initially find it difficult to express, ascertain or direct. But when 12th house energy comes into play it’s a far more potent energy than I think most astrologers give us 12th house people credit for. It’s energy on a higher plane, spiritual energy, creative energy that transcends physical earthly manifestations.

I often feel like a fool when I'm inexperienced but later I can get to a point where I feel superior.

For example to use Venus in the 12th as the prime example. When I was young I was very shy and very awkward when it came to affairs of the heart or even just being sociable. I went into my solitary shell a lot and didn't allow people in. Although even now I admit I do need my alone time I do feel as if I have transformed from a catipillar into a social butterfly.

i know someone with a stacked 12th house, sun moon venus mars jupiter all in aries, possibly a few more as i only glanced at the chart very quickly.

he is like a mirror or a living conduit rather than a defined individual, and he lacks a concrete sense of self in a huge way. when i speak to him i am often amazed and taken aback as i see other people i know in him; in the nuances of his voice, the look in his eyes, the way he turns his head, and he has an uncanny knack for bringing up subjects and saying things that are floating around in your head that you never mentioned to him. its like he can reach into your head and just start pulling stuff out, very unsettling especially as i'm not sure if he realizes he is capable of this. other people have said of him that he has bad vibes, i see it more as his own inner confusion and insecurity over his identity flowing out of him into his vicinity. its really quite sad to bear witness to, as he might be the most magical person i have met, but is denying his intrinsic ability to tap into the ether so to speak. if a person was a pane glass window, he would be just the screen, as thoughts and feelings flow in and out of him with ease.

with all his planets in aries in the 12th, i see him struggling quite a bit with the idea of "ego" and "self definition". he is in his 30s yet still seems to be swimming against the current, trying to define himself as an individual, when in reality, he needs to accept that his identity is actually that of everyone - a hard pill to swallow i'm sure with all his arian energy. he is extremely passive aggressive and with his diffuse energetic nature, has an issue with passing off his anger onto those around him, who then give it right back to him.

i would say that on some levels, he is not quite human, but more like something somewhere between an angel and a demon.

Wow!
Unfortunately it does sounds like your friend is definitely behaving like a misunderstood soul which is another characteristic of lots of planets in the 12th house.

You say that his 12th house is packed with Aries planets so it would make sense that he (mars) acts out strange (Neptunian/12th house behavior).

It also looks like his 12th house planets are giving him psychic ability which makes him intuitively pick up on on the subtle nuances operating within other people.

Naturally from the small piece of data you have given I don't want to accuse him of being anti-social but from what you have described it looks like that is what is going on.
Just sayin

The Ten Minute Astrologer said:

Wow!
Unfortunately it does sounds like your friend is definitely behaving like a misunderstood soul which is another characteristic of lots of planets in the 12th house.

You say that his 12th house is packed with Aries planets so it would make sense that he (mars) acts out strange (Neptunian/12th house behavior).

It also looks like his 12th house planets are giving him psychic ability which makes him intuitively pick up on on the subtle nuances operating within other people.

Naturally from the small piece of data you have given I don't want to accuse him of being anti-social but from what you have described it looks like that is what is going on.
Just sayin

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i wouldnt really call him my friend but i definitely would call him antisocial. he has the bad habit of goading people with offensive comments until they come back at him with something equally offensive, and then accusing them of being "too sensitive" when its really him that is the sensitive one. he is quite psychic but doesnt use it to his benefit unfortunately.

Well anyhow, one thing is for sure.....you wouldn't set him up on a blind date with any of your friends!

milkywaygirl said:

i know someone with a stacked 12th house, sun moon venus mars jupiter all in aries, possibly a few more as i only glanced at the chart very quickly.

he is like a mirror or a living conduit rather than a defined individual, and he lacks a concrete sense of self in a huge way. when i speak to him i am often amazed and taken aback as i see other people i know in him; in the nuances of his voice, the look in his eyes, the way he turns his head, and he has an uncanny knack for bringing up subjects and saying things that are floating around in your head that you never mentioned to him. its like he can reach into your head and just start pulling stuff out, very unsettling especially as i'm not sure if he realizes he is capable of this. other people have said of him that he has bad vibes, i see it more as his own inner confusion and insecurity over his identity flowing out of him into his vicinity. its really quite sad to bear witness to, as he might be the most magical person i have met, but is denying his intrinsic ability to tap into the ether so to speak. if a person was a pane glass window, he would be just the screen, as thoughts and feelings flow in and out of him with ease.

with all his planets in aries in the 12th, i see him struggling quite a bit with the idea of "ego" and "self definition". he is in his 30s yet still seems to be swimming against the current, trying to define himself as an individual, when in reality, he needs to accept that his identity is actually that of everyone - a hard pill to swallow i'm sure with all his arian energy. he is extremely passive aggressive and with his diffuse energetic nature, has an issue with passing off his anger onto those around him, who then give it right back to him.

i would say that on some levels, he is not quite human, but more like something somewhere between an angel and a demon.

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That's a very, very articulate description, milkywaygirl, of a heavily-packed 12th house person. Your description of how they may operate is very insightful!!!

My 32 yr old son has Sun, Pluto, Venus, Mars, Uranus and North Node all in 12th house - Sun, Pluto, Mars in Libra, and Venus, NN, Uranus in Scorpio, with Scorpio Asc. What you describe about extreme sensitivity, along with the ability to `absorb and send back out' what they pick up is what he does, also. The only difference being is that my son is consciously aware of this, is very sociable and social, and because of his `abilities' has had to be very discerning about not only what he says, but who he mixes with.

He declares that he has even had to make a consious decision to be an `angel', and not a `demon, as he knows he is capable of the latter. He still struggles with ego and identity, as well as quite low levels of energy. I think he just absorbs his environment, and this is very debilitating. We've talked about this, and his choice seems to be to continue to `absorb', because he recognises in himself an ability to dissipate negative vibrations. He acts a bit like a lightning rod for the projections and negativity of others. I read somewhere that this occurs in people with either packed 12th houses, or NN in Scorpio, or Scorpio Asc - and he has all 3!!

It's been quite a journey for him, and he has just in the past 7 months - perhaps since around his 32nd birthday - begun to get on top of the projections towards him, by recognising how others `use' his ability to absorb what they give out. He says that some people find him scary, but he's used to that. I find it an irony that his own father is a bit scared of him!!!! This is mainly because my son refuses to play `being nice' games, because this is fake behaviour.

milkywaygirl said:

i know someone with a stacked 12th house, sun moon venus mars jupiter all in aries, possibly a few more as i only glanced at the chart very quickly.

Click to expand...

milkywaygirl said:

he is like a mirror or a living conduit rather than a defined individual, and he lacks a concrete sense of self in a huge way. when i speak to him i am often amazed and taken aback as i see other people i know in him; in the nuances of his voice, the look in his eyes, the way he turns his head, and he has an uncanny knack for bringing up subjects and saying things that are floating around in your head that you never mentioned to him. its like he can reach into your head and just start pulling stuff out, very unsettling especially as i'm not sure if he realizes he is capable of this. other people have said of him that he has bad vibes, i see it more as his own inner confusion and insecurity over his identity flowing out of him into his vicinity. its really quite sad to bear witness to, as he might be the most magical person i have met, but is denying his intrinsic ability to tap into the ether so to speak. if a person was a pane glass window, he would be just the screen, as thoughts and feelings flow in and out of him with ease.

with all his planets in aries in the 12th, i see him struggling quite a bit with the idea of "ego" and "self definition". he is in his 30s yet still seems to be swimming against the current, trying to define himself as an individual, when in reality, he needs to accept that his identity is actually that of everyone - a hard pill to swallow i'm sure with all his arian energy. he is extremely passive aggressive and with his diffuse energetic nature, has an issue with passing off his anger onto those around him, who then give it right back to him.

i would say that on some levels, he is not quite human, but more like something somewhere between an angel and a demon.

Click to expand...

I can relate to that in many ways and I have Venus conjunct Mars in the 12th house in Aries. People often mention that I also have an "uncanny knack for bringing up subjects and saying things that are floating around in their head that they never mentioned to me."

My partner has the sun and mercury in the 12th house in Gemini. She often also has that knack. When we're together it's as if she knows exactly what I'm thinking at any given moment and vice versa.

We also both have an incredible tendancy to be able to know what someone is like just by getting an initial vibe from them. On many occasions I have got an initial "vibe" from someone that told me I wasn't going to like that person and shouldn't trust them. However, sometimes I don't trust my instinct and decide that person is not so bad afterall but then time and time again I find I should've trusted my initial instincts.

I wouldn't say that i'm struggling to find my identity or swimming against the current but I can be a lot of different characters in different situations and for different people. Possibly the reason I'm comfortable with this phenomena it because my Sun, Moon and Jupiter are elsewhere on my chart.

When I say different characters to different people I mean "extreme differences." I can reproduce foreign accents with precision.

One such example is that I once spent a whole night as an Irishman: just because I wanted to prove to myself I could do it. On that occassion I even interacted with other Irish people and made up a whole new character telling them I was from Cork.

Also in terms of being different characters, I once attended a drag queen event and was told I wasn't a good drag queen because I was too much like a woman and not a drag queen. So I decided to never go to drag functions again and just go out as a female when I feel like it. Which I can do so well that no one bats an eyelid.

But I also attend a lot of football games where I'm another completely different character that is certainly a masculine one.

One of my favourite things to do is sing and perform but even when I do this I do it in differing ways. I have done stage musicals, operas, been in a hard rock band, a metal band but I'm also quite happy to do jazz and love to create dance music.

I also have a good friend that is a polar bear named Gilmour who grew up in Austin, Texas and is addicted to Pink Floyd. In actual fact he is a soft toy that I have created a personality for and brought him alive in ventriloquist form. People don't think I'm crazy, even when I bring him along to social events. They love Gilmour, his quirky personality and his loving heart.