For the Traditionalists - How do you win Saturn Over in Your Chart?

katydid said:

Fair enough.

The reason I wanted to clarify is because I wanted to ask a question about the difference between trad and modern in a specific circumstance---but not sure how to do so w/out being able to say the names of the outers. So are we saying we can't ask any questions that would involve the existence of the modern planets?

For example, I wanted to try and understand how a traditionalist would compare a chart with Sat in Cap in the 1950's vs one in 1988, for example. Would Sat in Cap be seen as the same , if all the traditional planets were in same places?

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All the traditional planets wouldn't be in the same places, though. And the charts might be different because one was day and one was night, or other reasons.

Okay, in 1950, there was no traditional astrology. Astrology as traditionalists practise it took a big dirt nap from about the late 1600s, to the late 1900s. So people wouldn't have been looking at a chart - in that year - in a traditional way at all.

Not to imply that we've got it all sussed now, or take everything written in the past as holy writ, because it's not - but we're arguably in the best shape we've ever been as far as finally having access to real source materials.

If you mean would I, as a traditionalist, look at the chart of someone born in 1950 in the same way that I'd look at the chart of someone born in 1988 using the same techniques, with planets having the same kinds of meanings - yes.

In case you don't know, there's some great astrological software out there now. I don't even have the outer planets turned on in mine except for the rare occasions when I'm helping someone post a chart here. In my own work - don't use them.

So no, Saturn's meaning in trad is not affected by any outer planetary configurations, asteroids, etc. Doesn't matter what year you were born.

Given all that, competent astrologers of any stripe tend to come up with some very similar readings about the same chart. We get there by a different route.

So yeah, you're banging your head against the desk as Odd pays no mind to invisible planets, and I'm banging my head against the desk because how could you miss that beseigement.

Kitchy, can you post your chart, or another chart that has stimulated your OP?

But basically you would start by running a diagnostic on your Saturn's essential and accidental dignities. For example, if Saturn is domiciled or exalted, angular, in sect, &c it might not be such a bad guy in the chart.

One of the oldest astrology cookbooks, by Firmicus Maternus (280-360 CE) gives such an example (book 6 sec. 3.)

"Thus, if Saturn is trine to Jupiter and both are in signs in which they rejoice, avoiding debilitated houses; or if one of them in his own house aspects the other in trine; or they both are in aspect to the ascendant, this indicates infinite riches and great good fortune, especially if one of the two is also in aspect to the waxing moon....."

He goes on to say all of the good things Saturn (not Jupiter in this instance) will bestow on the native.

But what if Saturn is in a crummy house, opposed by Mercury, lacking essential dignity, and so on. What then?? Well, the temptation is to say, "Hard luck."

The stoic position (a branch of Greek philosophy that deeply influenced astrology) is that forewarned is forearmed. If you know from your chart that Saturn is likely to cause you trouble, then you can face those troubles bravely and calmly, vs. feeling blind-sided or victimized. You accept what the universe gives you, and thereby release a lot of the stress that comes from wanting life to be other than it is. (Similar to some eastern religious philosophies in this regard.)

However, astrologers from Ptolemy to Lilly have talked about the possibility of mitigation to some extent.

In my personal view of astrology, whether traditional or not, the one danger comes in some members of the Dr. Doom School of Fatalistic Astrological Counseling assigning far more negativity to a horoscope placement than it objectively deserves-- and the frightened chart native believing it. Each planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations, and within the confines allowed by their rulerships, it is possible to select and practice a more empowering interpretation consistent with the rulerships.

Moreover, the Christian (and perhaps other religions') influence on astrology admitted the tenet of "free will." While I think "free will" is a misnomer, I appreciate the concept of moral choice.

Just for example, natally I have Saturn retrograde in Virgo opposite Mars in Pisces. Firmicus Maternus (book 6 sec. 15) has a predictably horrible set of predictions associated with this aspect. I've experienced a few of them, but on the whole I'd have to say my life has turned out pretty well. By way of putting this placement on a more constructive footing, in the winter when the roads around here are too icy for good walking, I swim laps at the local rec center. Saturn provides the discipline, physical work, and endurance, while Mars rules athletes and Pisces is a water sign.
It's certainly helping my fitness, if not mitigating the ancient problems of revolts among slaves or temple-robbing.

Your chart and choices may vary, but I find this kind of chart-work to be analogous to some trads' use of amulets or rituals. Either way, traditional astrology admits the possibility of mitigation work.

katydid said:

Fair enough.

The reason I wanted to clarify is because I wanted to ask a question about the difference between trad and modern in a specific circumstance---but not sure how to do so w/out being able to say the names of the outers. So are we saying we can't ask any questions that would involve the existence of the modern planets?

For example, I wanted to try and understand how a traditionalist would compare a chart with Sat in Cap in the 1950's vs one in 1988, for example. Would Sat in Cap be seen as the same , if all the traditional planets were in same places?

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There are traditional astrologers who use the modern outer planets as supplementary data points. The outers just cannot be plugged into a table of essential dignities, however. It's OK to mention them by name. Uranus. Neptune. Pluto.

tsmall, I propose that you and Tim modify this board's rules so that it is permissible for the names of outer planets to pass our virtual lips here. Outright censorship is kind of silly. The rules should also reflect that traditional astrology didn't end in the 18th century, and continues to evolve in the capable hands of some very fine self-declared traditional astrologers, from Olivia Barclay through Deborah Houlding. I don't know what you would make of Demetra George's book Astrology and the Authentic Self, which promotes traditional astrology while incorporating asteroids.

Katydid: Saturn in Capricorn would be domiciled in either chart. However, I doubt that you would find the other traditional planets to be in their same places. But either way, you use a kind of mental check-list or rubric that runs you through Saturn's essential and accidental dignities. Among the latter would be Saturn's relationships with other planets.

BTW, Oddity-- you mentioned food not growing in Saturnine places. Yet Saturn is the traditional ruler of agriculture. Probably due to its ancient association with a golden age or the hard physical labour and disappointments of farming.

Kitchy said:

This is the greatest teacher student lesson of all times - played out by crackpot and expert astrologers alike.

Not so much the challenge as the exercise that makes you strong for the challenge.

I anticipate a response from the early 60's Jupiter/Saturn generation that brithed the Cap stellium kids.

Othewise it's a Uranus crapshoot.

How do you win Saturn over in your chart? How does he she work for you in the better not worse.


Traditional astrology points to Moon - Sun and exaltation. Do the exalted Sun's have a better time with Saturn than the compromised knowing Moon?

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Saturn in my chart is a real dominatrix [if I could say it like that ], he is in his domicile and has a lot of nasty aspects... The only problem is that he is out of sect, it's a night chart. Not really his place.
But thinking of all the things implied by this: I am very wary, cautious, responsible, mature, learn from my experience very fast [especially if it's shitty], hard-working.
I really had my trials and tribulations [just said Saturn makes all these nasty aspects with almost all of my personal planets, but luckily, from his exaltation, mostly], but I expect more to come and I can't say I am really prepared for this. No one is really prepared for bad experiences.
Luckily, Saturn it's not the most dignified planet in the chart, though I believed this to be true for years. Jupiter has the highest score in my chart...what a relief. So whatever will come next...it will be somewhat alleviated, like it was even in the darkest times of my life.

Here is an example chart of my mother who passed in May.

Her mom divorced father in 1933 - left him with 2 daughters - who were raised by his mother, step dad and him. My mom's grandparents were bootleggers and bar owners during prohibition and depression. She never went without in material terms but lots of abuse by grandmother. My mom married 3 times - Divorced 3 times. Her first husband was in military. Her 2nd husband, my dad, was an immigrant and alcoholic. Her 3rd husband was an ex-con who went back to prison about a year after they married. She had great issues with her mother's abandonment but when her mom remarried her dad in 1967 - she was happy and felt she had the chance to have a mom and dad again. For being the eternal optimist, my mom was also extremely negative and cynical - somehow bridging the gap of the two with a delightful sense of sarcastic humor. She never had a career, only went through 8th grade, but was truly worldly and intelligent - although she never traveled outside of US once in her life. She had a great thirst for learning and she played scrabble and crosswords and soduku daily up until her eyes got too bad to see - about 2 years before she died. I was not present when my mother died - I didn't want to be. I could never imagine this woman larger than life in my eyes being compromised or weak or near death and I didn't want to have a bad last image of her. Their were other family reasons too - terrible endings among 3 siblings - but if I had wanted to force my way through it, I would have. She had a doomfully positive attitude about Saturn - "that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger "- and "there are worse things in life than dying". She was always very quick to bring any feelings or pain expressed by others back to herself and to describe all of the abuse and misery in her life. She had other narcissistic tendencies as well - as a parent - she controlled each of her kids relationship with another - triangulating and taking strong sides with each one and playing us against each other. (my take) - She and I shared moon moon conjunction within 2 degrees. Anyway - I am interested in how a traditionalist would see this chart and explain if possible if or how my mom won over her saturn?

Arabic Parts: (i am adding these, but not in chart because I couldn't figure out how to alter chart )

POF - 25.27 Aries

LUCK - 5.51 Libra

ANCESTORS/RELATIONS - 26.29 Virgo

CURIOSITY - 12.58 Pisces

DAUGHTERS - 12.38 Aries

DESTINY - 26.24 Capricorn

FATE - 18.0 Libra

TRAGEDY - 18.1 Libra

SECRET ENEMIES - 0.14 Libra

Kitchy, thanks for sharing your mother's life and story. Saturn is a strong planet in her chart. I will mentally convert her chart to whole signs houses, but the other house systems through Placidus were known prior to 1700. Just to run a quick diagnostic on the chart from my understanding of Hellenistic astrology:

Saturn has got the most essential dignity in this chart: domiciled and the final dispositor. We'll bump it into the 4th house (whole signs) where it is angular. Otherwise it's not picking up a lot of help. Mom's house #3 is ruled by Jupiter in detriment. The third (cadent) house is not one of the strong ones.

Citing the cookbook of Firmicus Maternus (Matheseos LibriVIII) for a Hellenistic interpretation (5.3.42,) Saturn actually does not benefit from being the king in his castle: the native will suffer a lot of financial reverses in life, and may experience illness throughout life. However, by transit there are good and bad times: Oddly, given the signs' quincunx relationship, the native will prosper more when Saturn moves into Leo.

In general, Saturn is not a happy camper in the 4th house, where he indicates financial difficulties, illness, early death of the father. (Note that the 4th is the traditional house of one's father.)

Mercury in the 4th house (3.7.6) according to FM, makes for sharp minds (sounds like Mom) and people familiar with different types of learning including esoteric knowledge. This esoteric knowledge is reinforced by Venus in the third house (traditionally of the "goddess moon") in aspect with Jupiter.

The sun in the third house according to FM indicates "an evil death." Although your mother's may have been typical for elderly people, this sounds like your description.

Mom's sense of humour sounds like a Saturn-Mercury thing. Saturn experiences life's hardships (in the domains of home, parental heritage,) but Mercury's wit and trickster quality--so attested to in Greek mythology-- can turn the hardships on their head.



Incidentally, if you can recast Mom's chart with her P of F and other basic "lots" (Arabian parts) there is more to be gleaned.

Waybread thank you for that. I will add the items you suggested and re-attach chart. I guess my premise of posting this is to determine how Saturn worked in her chart in traditional consideration and what I know of it otherwise. Indeed she had a a lousy life, by her standards, but she managed to survive so much and lived to be almost 85, genetics family helped. Oh, also - she did 'lose' her father so to speak - after her mom left - he was not always at home during the bootlegging days and then of course during WWII - he was gone much longer. He did live to be 90 though - but she did believe he wasn't 'there' for her by standing up to his mother during her child rearing.

I'll look up the arabic parts as I am not familiar with all those. Thank you.

Kitchy, one other thing I might mention, is that trads (or mods) might well question or debate the meaning of the cookbook delineations. Joseph Crane, in his book on Hellenistic Astrology, says that they are "aphoristic," meaning that they are only intended to convey a general sense of the meaning of a planet in a given context. Some of the Hellenists were incredibly dire-- as I know from having looked up my wretched Mars opposite Saturn-- and dire in very specific ways about just how rotten your life was going to get. If we take an aphoristic view, then Saturn in the 4th might more generally mean "troubles with Dad."

Having read Firmicus Maternus, Manilius, Ptolemy, Dorotheus, Valens, Rhetorius, and snippets of others in English translation, I have yet to see one of those Hellenistic authors say, "Well, Saturn-Mars means a depraved temple-robber given to sexual perversion, but you can interpret this loosely."

And Crane's interpretation is precisely what I mean by traditional astrology not ending in 1700. An aphoristic interpretation is only a step away from a modern gloss on an old text. We can only ever interpret the past through our eyes, and for our times.

Historical purism is an illusion.

Jupiter -

The chart I have posted as attachment has only sun thru saturn. The expired link may have had all planets, but it's gone now. I also added degree/sign of Arabic Parts because I couldn't figure out to put them on the AD chart. The parts I selected were ones of most interest to me.

I have a strong feeling if this thread is relocated - the traditionalists will boycott it because it's not in traditional forum. Will I lose out on the perspectives? I hope to discover more about t traditional perspective of when / if / how Saturn is benefic or malefic in a traditional chart interpretation. I'll leave the debates to others, but I hope to get some insight, using my mom's chart as an example.

Thanks to all offering help.

All, I deleted the off topic comments and replies to off topic comments. The place to discuss the rules of the forums is here.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=22

Back to Saturn.

Thanks Oddity for the tips. I'll be practicing meditation on Saturday, but I've no idea which hour belongs to Saturn.

heidy26 said:

Saturn in my chart is a real dominatrix [if I could say it like that ], he is in his domicile and has a lot of nasty aspects... The only problem is that he is out of sect, it's a night chart. Not really his place.
But thinking of all the things implied by this: I am very wary, cautious, responsible, mature, learn from my experience very fast [especially if it's shitty], hard-working.
I really had my trials and tribulations [just said Saturn makes all these nasty aspects with almost all of my personal planets, but luckily, from his exaltation, mostly], but I expect more to come and I can't say I am really prepared for this. No one is really prepared for bad experiences.
Luckily, Saturn it's not the most dignified planet in the chart, though I believed this to be true for years. Jupiter has the highest score in my chart...what a relief. So whatever will come next...it will be somewhat alleviated, like it was even in the darkest times of my life.

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This is interesting, Heidy, and it brings me to another question.

Jupiter has more power than Saturn in your chart, so one could say that it's a "Light in the darkness" kind of planet, yes? But what happens when Saturn is the strongest and Jupiter is the weakest? Does the opposition mean that, since Saturn is stronger and in a higher plane than Jupiter, that Jupiter can no longer "act?"

Note: The question is for anyone to answer!

Blaze said:

Thanks Oddity for the tips.

I'll be practicing meditation on Saturday,

but I've no idea which hour belongs to Saturn.


This is interesting, Heidy, and it brings me to another question.

Jupiter has more power than Saturn in your chart, so one could say that it's a "Light in the darkness" kind of planet, yes? But what happens when Saturn is the strongest and Jupiter is the weakest? Does the opposition mean that, since Saturn is stronger and in a higher plane than Jupiter, that Jupiter can no longer "act?"

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Hi Blaze HOW TO CALCULATE PLANETARY HOURS http://www.lunarium.co.uk/articles/planetary-hours-and-days2.jsp

tsmall said:

All, I deleted the off topic comments and replies to off topic comments. The place to discuss the rules of the forums is here.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=22

....

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I've just done that on this new thread:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=654423#post654423

heidy26 said:

Luckily, Saturn it's not the most dignified planet in the chart, though I believed this to be true for years. Jupiter has the highest score in my chart...what a relief.

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Well, just to offer another point of view on that subject, not all astrologers regard the supposed "scoring" system as an actual indication for planetary strength.

For example, a planet in its own exaltation (+4 points), is still considered more dignified than one in tripliciy and term (+3 +2 = +5) by some.

The scoring system was developed by (I think) Bonatti. Could have been created earlier, but Bonatti certainly used it.

If you want to compare and contrast point systems, check here:

http://arhatmedia.com/alldign.htm

Mark well, though, that none of the systems take sect into account. Make of that what you will. I think they can be useful to study, to see what people thought was important and why, but they aren't the be-all, end-all of planetary strength and weakness. This is why astrologers need to develop judgement.

Maybe it's good mercury or jupiter relations with Saturn that give Saturn a break? Having a sense of humor and being able to laugh and see beyond what exists at the moment. So, now, I move into some more in-depth study of what Jupiter & Mercury meant for the early astrologers and how they might mitigate some of the doom.

One of my favorite one-liners from one of my favorite Saturn Merc conjunction people - "If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary after s*hit and suicide..."

I think my mom might have left me with some of her greatest spiritual breadcrumbs before she passed - her acceptance in life - the way things are and not how we think or hope they will turn out. Being able to gripe and laugh at the same time is not a bad Saturn thing is it?

Being that I have Jupiter-Saturn conjunct in 6th - I will say - "Glad to be of your Service" for all whom may have gotten stuck in the gripe without the laugh.

So here's a deeper question: If a baby dies after birth - is it cold hard Saturn? Or if a mother finds a way to live through that loss, wouldn't that Saturn too? I should have asked her when she was still around. She would have given me a straight answer and made me laugh and think and cry at the same time.

One of my frustrations here is that I feel like people want one or two sentences to answer a hugely complex question. But I'll try.

Saturn and the eighth house are the generic rulers of death. Descendant also, to a certain extent. That's the point where the sun finally sinks below the horizon.

If we're talking specifically about infant death, then you need to look at what differentia the child was born in, and that can be a somewhat complicated process. But it'll show there. See Bonatti. See Bob Zoller, it's still complicated, but in more modern English.

Anguish, grief of mind - again, Saturn and the eighth house. I don't see how Saturn could help in this situation, but I suppose it would come down to the individual chart. Still, it is not something that would spring to mind as helpful or useful in a situation like this.

Oddity said:

If you want to compare and contrast point systems, check here:

http://arhatmedia.com/alldign.htm

Mark well, though, that none of the systems take sect into account. Make of that what you will. I think they can be useful to study, to see what people thought was important and why, but they aren't the be-all, end-all of planetary strength and weakness. This is why astrologers need to develop judgement.

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What a great article, Oddity-- thanks. (And by someone born after 1700.)

Blaze said:

This is interesting, Heidy, and it brings me to another question.

Jupiter has more power than Saturn in your chart, so one could say that it's a "Light in the darkness" kind of planet, yes? But what happens when Saturn is the strongest and Jupiter is the weakest? Does the opposition mean that, since Saturn is stronger and in a higher plane than Jupiter, that Jupiter can no longer "act?"

Note: The question is for anyone to answer!

Click to expand...

Well, let me tell you something: the planetary dignities from my chart go as follows:
1. Jupiter
2. Saturn
3. Venus
...
The dignities were calculated based on Lilly's table to examine the strength and debility: http://www.zaytsev.com/Manual/dign.html

Now, when I calculated the Almuten Figuris, I freaked out, Saturn and Mercury were even. But you know, Merc has also exaltation points in the most important angle...so he was the winner, otherwise I'd had to choose, **** it.

So...Saturn is pretty strong in my chart. That son of a #$%^.
I made this introduction just to show he has strength and surprisingly, I do have a Saturn/Jupiter opposition.
Each one of them is placed in each other's fall. How do you think this plays ?
I'll tell you: depression alternates with optimism. Life ***** vs life is great.
The more I age, the more I stabilize this tendency. If we were to look back, let's say...7 years ago, or 5 years ago, this aspect played out really strong. It ruined me.
The more I age [or the wiser I get, to say it the correct way], the more these two energies pulling away are coming together and I get a stable view of life, whatever situation I find myself into or whatever are the circumstances.
Saturn is tough, but he is an awesome attorney. He gives you the worst sentence and after you do your time, you get out shinning. There's no way in going out without learning your lesson.

My Saturn is not the most dignified planet in the chart, but still has power. Same applies if positions were switched.
And I was not talking here about Jupiter being severely debiliated; in that case, Jupiter is siding with the bad guys in an un-evil way.