People are too harsh on Saturn
- Thread starter Julian
- Start date
Oddity
Well-known member
Who are these people you keep referring to, Julian? I don't know them.
Saturn in 2 can make you poor. It could also make you rich. Or average. It depends on a lot more than a house placement, and the second house is not the sole indicator of wealth.
If it's in good dignity, there could be a lot of money - but your profit will come from harming other people in some way, or from their misfortune, because Saturn is a malefic. If it's in good dignity, it will hurt you, too, but not as badly as it hurts others.
What if it's your financial signifier? What if it rules Fortuna in the chart?
Saturn in 2 can make you poor. It could also make you rich. Or average. It depends on a lot more than a house placement, and the second house is not the sole indicator of wealth.
If it's in good dignity, there could be a lot of money - but your profit will come from harming other people in some way, or from their misfortune, because Saturn is a malefic. If it's in good dignity, it will hurt you, too, but not as badly as it hurts others.
What if it's your financial signifier? What if it rules Fortuna in the chart?
Julian
Banned
Who are these people you say? One of them is you. Why do you say that even if Saturn is well placed in the second house it will harm others? That's just bias.
Oddity
Well-known member
I'm not one of those people because I don't say that.
As to why - that's because Saturn is a malefic, as is Mars. Even well-placed they cause some harm because that is their nature. It's just that the harm tends to be more towards other people than towards the querent, though the querent will receive some harm from the houses those planets are placed in, and the houses that they rule.
Obvious example: What if you make your money by being a prize fighter?
As to why - that's because Saturn is a malefic, as is Mars. Even well-placed they cause some harm because that is their nature. It's just that the harm tends to be more towards other people than towards the querent, though the querent will receive some harm from the houses those planets are placed in, and the houses that they rule.
Obvious example: What if you make your money by being a prize fighter?
Osamenor
Staff member
And how are you defining harm?
Then the people you fight are making their money the same way, and it's a fair fight. Everyone involved has chosen to take the risks of the sport. Is that what you mean by harm?
For that matter... name one way of making money that doesn't cause any harm, even indirectly.
Oddity
Well-known member
I think you're confusing foul play with harm, though that can be the case as well.
With Saturn it will be something noticeable. And do remember that in trad astrology not all planets act all the time.
Another example: real estate development where you tear down a lot of people's homes, or a lawsuit where you win and really hurt someone else financially.
Mars and Saturn are malefics. They cause harm, because that is their nature. A malefic, in traditional astrology, is a planet that is considered too excessive to support life.
If the planet is well dignified, the harm tends to go more to other people than to you, and you often profit from the harm. Again, it doesn't have to be an every day thing, or an unfair thing.
But that's fairly rare. If the planet is not well dignified, you're going to get hurt from it. All things being equal, Saturn is worse for people born at night, and Mars is worse for people born during the day. But they're both in everyone's chart, and nobody gets through life without being harmed. The malefics and accidental malefics show you where that harm is most likely to come from. Hopefully once you know that, you can minimise the damage.
With Saturn it will be something noticeable. And do remember that in trad astrology not all planets act all the time.
Another example: real estate development where you tear down a lot of people's homes, or a lawsuit where you win and really hurt someone else financially.
Mars and Saturn are malefics. They cause harm, because that is their nature. A malefic, in traditional astrology, is a planet that is considered too excessive to support life.
If the planet is well dignified, the harm tends to go more to other people than to you, and you often profit from the harm. Again, it doesn't have to be an every day thing, or an unfair thing.
But that's fairly rare. If the planet is not well dignified, you're going to get hurt from it. All things being equal, Saturn is worse for people born at night, and Mars is worse for people born during the day. But they're both in everyone's chart, and nobody gets through life without being harmed. The malefics and accidental malefics show you where that harm is most likely to come from. Hopefully once you know that, you can minimise the damage.
waybread
Well-known member
Hi Julian-- The problem is that there is a lot of pop-schlock astrology out there. The same astrologers who say Saturn in the second indicates poverty are probably the ones who think Jupiter in the second indicates wealth. On this forum, we try to learn more astrology than they did.
Osamenor
Staff member
And are the benefics not excessive? Jupiter can bring overindulgence or overconfidence. Venus can bring excessive vanity and superficiality. Or is that not so in traditional astrology?
Hmmm.... so am I most likely to get harmed by relationships because Saturn is in my seventh house? Or, since Mars is in my fifth and I was born in the daytime, by pursuing hobbies or other fifth house things? Both those things have happened, in fact, though no major harm from a romantic relationship--the real big betrayal came from a close mentor.
Osamenor
Staff member
Saturn in the second doesn't make you poor in and of itself, but it might be a contributing factor in feeling poor. From a modern astrology perspective, the second house represents both material and emotional security and resources. Saturn's energy is constrictive. In the second house, that constrictive energy gets applied to your management of resources and your sense of what resources you have. If you fall under the sway of extreme constrictiveness, you might feel poor even when you are not. That could also play out as emotional insecurity or body image problems--you might, for instance, believe that you're ugly or too fat or too thin or just plain unloveable.
Saturn in the second can also lead to wise management of resources. Someone with Saturn in that placement is likely to be frugal and manage their money well. If you also have Jupiter in the second house, and/or expansive Sagittarius on the second house cusp, Saturn reins in the extreme expression of that happy-go-lucky energy, so if you're good at making money, you're not just as good at spending it. In that case, the constrictive energy of Saturn would be working for you.
Julian
Banned
I don't have Saturn in the second house, my Saturn is in the 10th (or 11th if you use Whole-signs)
Oddity
Well-known member
In traditional astrology, the benefics are temperate. The malefics are intemperate.
Can a benefic bring harm? Sure, if it's ruling the 8th house, or in detriment, or squaring Saturn or the like. Even then, it will try to bring good - just that the good may be outweighed by the bad.
But if the benefic is in good dignity, it doesn't bring harm, it brings good. Benefics are there to support life.
Julian - Mars and Saturn are both malefics. Mars rules strife, and Saturn rules misery.
Zonark
Well-known member
Prize fighter is more Martian than Saturnian.
To Mars Saturn says "Oh so you're a UFC fighter? Let's see if you can be an UZI survivor". But yeah, both chock full o malice.
America has exalted Saturn in Libra and makes most of its profit from war. Not so much waging it but selling its implements. Largest arms dealer in the world is the US government. The wealthy arms dealer is characteristic Saturn in Libra.
So yes Julian, Saturn is a bad guy. The degree to which is governed by its strength, which imparts ability, which may also govern the manner in which the malice is dispensed. It is possible for it to be dispensed with at least some justice or other benefit arising, or for the malice to be directed at an inconsequential target, or with inconsequential force.
For example Saturn in its fall in Aries and in the twelfth house may result in a very unfortunate case of mental deterioration where the native's last days are spent banging their head against a wall inside an asylum. The native's harm is for the most part done to the self.
I think we understand the general idea, however with Saturn it would be more maybe some dark schemings like dealing drugs at night in a disreputable alley or something like that.
graay ghost
Well-known member
People are too harsh on Mars, too. To say that anger and aggression and all those Mars things can never be justified is wrong and harmful and a common belief that is often used to control the vulnerable.
Oddity
Well-known member
I think we understand the general idea, however with Saturn it would be more maybe some dark schemings like dealing drugs at night in a disreputable alley or something like that.
Yes, but we're trying to give examples of a second house malefic. Having Mars in 2 wouldn't be unheard of for making money by physical damage, but Saturn seems a bit more likely. A lot of the sports folks I've done charts for have Mars above the horizon. No surprise there, really.
Oddity
Well-known member
Mars can have good qualities. As can Saturn. The point is that they are natural malefics, Mars too hot and dry to support life, Saturn too cold and dry to support life. Even when they're dignified, they are going to bring some harm. That's what they do. It doesn't mean they can never, ever bring good qualities, though.
Osamenor
Staff member
You used Saturn in the second as an example, so I responded to that. You said nothing at all about Saturn in the tenth until now. If you had mentioned Saturn in the tenth, I would've gone into what Saturn in the tenth might mean. In that placement, its energies would be applied most strongly to your career, or, more broadly, your public reputation. You would probably be viewed as Saturnian by people who don't know you very well: serious, authoritarian, maybe having a "wise elder" persona. You would probably eventually become known as a leader or authority figure in some sense. And Saturn's discipline and sense of stricture would show in how you approach your career, for better or worse.
Osamenor
Staff member
To me, that sounds more like Pluto. Which is not recognized by traditional astrology, and we're dealing with both traditional and modern interpretations in this thread, so perhaps traditional astrology assigns all those Plutonian characteristics to Saturn and/or Mars? If Pluto were recognized by trad, I suspect it would be called malefic. Seems to me that the whole malefic/benefic distinction is much more a traditional thing than a modern astrology thing.I think we understand the general idea, however with Saturn it would be more maybe some dark schemings like dealing drugs at night in a disreputable alley or something like that.
Again, that sounds like Pluto as well. I recently read an article about Pluto transits in which the author said Pluto transits seem to destroy the good qualities of the sign it's transiting, on a societal level. The Pluto in Libra era saw a spike in the divorce rate; Pluto in Virgo saw an increase in processed foods and decrease in nutrition; Pluto in Capricorn has seen worldwide economic collapse (collapse of traditional structure, etc.).
A little off topic since we were originally discussing Saturn, and Mars by association. I'm just speculating on the nature of malefics.
So is this hot/dry and cold/dry stuff similar to the old medical concept of balance of humors? That's what it's sounding like to me. And the rest of the traditional planets are presumably better balanced and able to support life? Support life in what sense? We're apparently not talking about the possibility of literal extraterrestrial life.
Osamenor
Staff member
Interesting. Is there any particular Mars house placement that tends to show up for those sports folks most often?