Moieties - Is Sun sepparating or still applying to Saturn?

Hi,

In this chart Sun is in 5 degrees in Leo
Saturn is in 0 degrees Libra

I'm not sure if Sun is separating or still applying to Saturn by a Sextile.

I've been reading about moieties but I'm a bit confused.

According to Lilly Sun has a moiety of 8 degrees and Saturn of 4 degrees.
Added up it's 12 degrees.

So in this case, is Sun separating from Saturn until it is more than 12 degrees apart?

Or do I take half of 12 = 6 and so Sun would still be applying to Saturn since it is only 5 degrees apart ?

Thank you

Appollonnia said:

I've been reading about moieties but I'm a bit confused.

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I can understand that because it generally isn't well explained. I'll try to do my best here. You should get used to the correct order of the Planets and Luminaries, because it helps a lot:

Moon 12°
Mercury 7°
Venus 8°
Sun 15°
Mars 7°
Jupiter 10°
Saturn 9°

This list is by planetary speed, which is really important when looking at aspects, and you'll see how the orbs come into play.

The Moon can make aspects to all

When Mercury is Direct, it can make aspects to all except the Moon. Mercury can only aspect the Moon when Retrograde, and that is an aspect by Mutual Application and it is interpreted differently (because Mutual Application aspects are very quick, often forceful and sometimes violent).

When Venus is Direct, it can make aspects to all except the Moon and Mercury. Venus has to be Retrograde to make aspects to those two.

The Sun never goes Retrograde, so it can only make aspects to Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Saturn can never aspect any Planet or Luminary, unless it is Retrograde (and again that would an aspect by Mutual Application).

Each Planet and Luminary has its own orb, which is sort of a reflection of its size and distance as viewed from Earth. The main issue in Horary, is are two Significators, or a Significator and other body in aspect or not? To answer that question, we use moiety, which is just another way of saying "half the orb of both planets."

So, we'll start at the beginning.

Saturn is at 00° Libra 34' and the Sun is at 14° Cancer 22'

What's going on? Nothing. The Sun and Saturn are not in aspect.

Saturn is at 00° Libra 34' and the Sun is at 17° Cancer 42'

Now what's going on? The Sun is in a platic sextile with Saturn. Why? The orb of Saturn is 9° so the moiety is 4°30' and the orb of the Sun is 15° so the moiety is 7°30' and the sum of the moieties is 12° and the Sun is within the moiety orb.

Saturn is at 00° Libra 34' and the Sun is at 00° Leo 07'

Now the Sun is in a partile sextile with Saturn.

Saturn is at 00° Libra 34' and the Sun is at 00° Leo 41'

Now the Sun has separated from the sextile with Saturn. Usually you allow 6' of arc to 9' of arc (and that's minutes and not degrees). Bonatus and Lily say that once a Planet or Luminary separates, it has released the Planet and there's no longer any relationship between the two, meaning the Sun is no longer influencing Saturn or vice versa.

The moiety orbs are important to know because the Moon, Mercury and Venus are much faster than Mars, Jupiter and Saturn and as they (or the Sun) form aspects, those smaller faster planets can get in the way of the aspects.

Saturn is at 00° Libra 34' and the Sun is at 19° Cancer 42' and Venus is at 27° Cancer 31'

Venus will perfect its conjunction with Saturn before the Sun perfects its sextile with Saturn. So Venus will interfere.

Other Planets can also form sextiles, squares, trines or oppositions to Saturn before the Sun perfects its sextile. That's why you can't say, "Oh, this planet trines that planets so the answer is 'yes'."

Mercury goes retrograde several times a year, and it can go retrograde before perfecting an aspect (meaning it does not form a partile aspect) and you have to be aware of that. That's why moiety orbs are used, to determine when the planets are actually in contact with one another and see when another planet interferes with an aspect.

With the Sun having already separated from Saturn and by 5° we would use the First Time Rule and since Leo is a Fixed Sign, whatever it was happened about 5 years ago. Sextiles are neutral good, but with the Sun dignified in Leo and Saturn sort of exalted in Libra (it really needs to get to 21 Libra) Cadent and Succedent, it was probably something good or beneficial.

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Okay, you need to use offsets.

I don't have a preference, and not sure which is better than the other, but the house offsets were:

Bonatus: 8° Angular, 5° Succedent, 3° Cadent

Lily: 5° all houses.

What that means is for Bonatus, any Planet or Luminary (but not chart point like Part of Fortune or Nodes) within 8° of an Angle was considered to be in the Angle.

So if Moon was in the 12th House at 19° Taurus 31' and the Ascendant was at 26° Taurus, Bonatus would have considered the Moon to be in the 1st House, not the 12th House.

For Lily, the Moon would have to be at 21° Taurus to be in the 1st House.

If you apply the house offsets, then both Mars and Saturn are in your 3rd House of Communication.

Saturn is his significator and Mars is the ruler of his 3rd House of Communication.

You don't always need an aspect between two significators.

Often the mere presences of a significator in a house is sufficient. In this case you have the conjunction between Mars and Saturn. Conjunctions are not always good, but in this case you have Saturn in Libra exalted and Mars in detriment in Libra. Mars has very little power and is not going to fight Saturn, plus being as close as they are, they're in the same Face and Term, so they're both in the Term of Saturn and Mars happens to be the Degree Ruler for 0° Libra.

Also, the Sun as his co-significator is in an applying conjunction to the Ascendant by orb and not moiety (because the Ascendant is a chart point and not a planet).

Got it.

Thank you.

According to the chart, the Sun is separating from Saturn. If this is a horary question then the answer is "No". Sorry.

Catatonia

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I have two thoughts:

1. The horary is invalid

2. 3rd house ruler is Venus and Moon applies by sextile to Venus. This is the last aspect Moon makes after separating from Mercury.

It isn't my conviction that horary is about all this moity of separation business. If the two sigs don't apply, there is no relationship. Separation is just that: separation. The horary may have been invalid because the question either didn't make much of a difference in reality, or because you already knew he would call, or because you've already asked an identical question several times prior. I've seen this happen a billion times. People ask the same question in different versions over and over again and expect different results. Eventually horary gives up.

Catatonia

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Catatonia said:

I have two thoughts:

1. The horary is invalid

2. 3rd house ruler is Venus and Moon applies by sextile to Venus. This is the last aspect Moon makes after separating from Mercury.

It isn't my conviction that horary is about all this moity of separation business. If the two sigs don't apply, there is no relationship. Separation is just that: separation. The horary may have been invalid because the question either didn't make much of a difference in reality, or because you already knew he would call, or because you've already asked an identical question several times prior. I've seen this happen a billion times. People ask the same question in different versions over and over again and expect different results. Eventually horary gives up.

Catatonia

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It's my experience that Horary never "gives up" but the astrologer can and will. It's easy to say a chart is invalid if you can't find the answer but if you persist and study the chart, you will be rewarded. I do feel though, Catatonia, that you should experiment a little with what you deem to be of little difference to "reality". I have asked, and answered accurately, such questions as "When will I finish work tonight?", "Will I enjoy the party?", "If I ask him out on a date, will he accept?" just to name a few. You never know, you may be surprised.

As for this chart, I feel Saturn applying a wide conjunction to the 3rd house here is indicative of his calling as is Mercury, the natural significator of communications, being in the 1st house. Of course it is rather easy to say that now that the outcome is known but even so, it's a good opportunity to learn alternate ways of recognising perfection.
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Hi Konrad,

I'll be honest here and now and say that I'm a little upset at some of the remarks you made to me about the way I perform astrology. I don't criticize your methods and you shouldn't criticize mine because you don't know whether they have, or have not, held up in experience.

In addition, telling me you've successfully answered some questions says nothing. I hope the professional astrologers on this board recognize that. I can come in here and say that too.

Furthermore, any future remarks from you will be construed as attacking. I'd prefer for you to NOT address me in any public or private context.

According to my experiences, that horary was invalid. It was invalid because the experience did NOT reflect the actual horary. For me, case closed. If you want to interpret it differently then go ahead, but attempt to tell me my techniques need "further experimenting" is downright low of you because you have no authority to swing that line around.

I'll leave it at that.

Catatonia

Konrad said:

It's my experience that Horary never "gives up" but the astrologer can and will. It's easy to say a chart is invalid if you can't find the answer but if you persist and study the chart, you will be rewarded. I do feel though, Catatonia, that you should experiment a little with what you deem to be of little difference to "reality". I have asked, and answered accurately, such questions as "When will I finish work tonight?", "Will I enjoy the party?", "If I ask him out on a date, will he accept?" just to name a few. You never know, you may be surprised.

As for this chart, I feel Saturn applying a wide conjunction to the 3rd house here is indicative of his calling as is Mercury, the natural significator of communications, being in the 1st house. Of course it is rather easy to say that now that the outcome is known but even so, it's a good opportunity to learn alternate ways of recognising perfection.

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I think the lesson here,among others, is what the moderator said about "Often the mere presences of a significator in a house is sufficient." I have drawn charts where the main significators were separating by some 10 minutes of arc and the events proved that the answer was NO. Then i have had charts where, again, the main significators are separating, but present in each other's houses, and the event unfolded exactly as I expected them to be. In this last case, i had asked 'Will my former employer pay me the money they owe me" after I sent a letter to them requesting them t do this. The main significators were separating by one and a half degrees, but in each other's houses, so this meant that money was going to end in my pocket nonetheless. It meant that my letter had had its intended effect. But it took me several months to realize it.

Appollonnia said:

Hi Catatonia,

The thing is that I really didn't know if he would call me or not since he's in his country right now and doesn't have the means to always call me. Plus I always have to wait for him to contact me.

So that's why we should pay attention to Mars ruler of his 3rd house.

Thank you for looking at my chart.

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Appollonnia,

I appreciate that you want this horary to fit the reality of the situation, but if it just doesn't fit then why make up some sort of convoluted plot to make it fit? Horary really isn't that difficult.

Catatonia

Catatonia said:

Hi Konrad,

I'll be honest here and now and say that I'm a little upset at some of the remarks you made to me about the way I perform astrology. I don't criticize your methods and you shouldn't criticize mine because you don't know whether they have, or have not, held up in experience.

In addition, telling me you've successfully answered some questions says nothing. I hope the professional astrologers on this board recognize that. I can come in here and say that too.

Furthermore, any future remarks from you will be construed as attacking. I'd prefer for you to NOT address me in any public or private context.

According to my experiences, that horary was invalid. It was invalid because the experience did NOT reflect the actual horary. For me, case closed. If you want to interpret it differently then go ahead, but attempt to tell me my techniques need "further experimenting" is downright low of you because you have no authority to swing that line around.

I'll leave it at that.

Catatonia

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The horary was not invalid, the chart showed the call hapening and it did. You can ignore that if you choose but, as you were here, you will be wrong in your interpretations. I find it very easy to blame the person asking the question when the astrologer is wrong and if you see my opinion as an attack, and a personal one at that, then that is your choosing because that certainly isn't the case. As for experimenting with astrology, if you see that as low then what can I say?

Saying that, I will respect your opinion and leave you out of any future discussions I have on this board but I will suggest (not attack, criticise or hate on you) that you read a little about emplacement to see other examples of this type of horary in action.
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