Missing Person

waybread said:

Kristap, this might work best as a horary question. I think your question is, "Where is Peggy McGuire?" Or, as Deborah Houlding suggests in the linked article, "Will we find her?" But you might word it differently. Then, to the best of your ability, please cast a chart for the exact time, date, and location when you asked the question. (Which might be some time before you posted your chart.) There are some conventional horary procedures for locating missing objects, pets, and people.

If the person is deceased, presumably the chart will show that.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/missingpersonhoraryexample.html

I will say that Peggy has kind of a difficult-looking natal chart. Do you know if she was attracted to "underworld" types of men with shady or criminal histories? (Venus conjunct Pluto.) Do you know if she suffered from depression? (Natal Saturn conjunct sun with 6 degree orb, disappearance date Saturn exactly conjunct sun, with both in the 12th house.)

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Kristap said:

Hi. I have a missing person case I need help reading the charts. I am still learning and I am still clueless on a lot of the terminology. I may look into a class but right now I am self taught online and new at even that... Its been pretty obvious we are searching for remains but where?

I have attached 3 charts... One is from the "victims" date and time of birth...
The 2nd chart is from the date and time she was last heard from..
The 3rd is the planets and houses of the time she was last heard from..

Through my research on using astrology for missing persons, I had read that Saturn normally points to where the body is - In this case I see saturn in Sag in the 12th house. (Am I reading this wrong? Is that in Scorpio? and the 1st, i am confused because the planet chart)

Can some one please help.
Maybe explain to me?
I am in contact with family so I can get more information
if I am not using the right information..

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None of those three charts is appropriate for an horary astrology question board
because HORARY astrology
differs from natal astrology - a natal chart is not used for Horary
and the reasons why are detailed at the following linked thread

JUPITERASC said:

and so
for anyone interested to learn how Horary astrology works
there is a FREE online course
including self-testing online at the following link
An Introduction to Horary
A basic, introductory course on horary to get you started
- with interactive assignments and online resources

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waybread said:

Kristap, this might work best as a horary question. I think your question is, "Where is Peggy McGuire?" Or, as Deborah Houlding suggests in the linked article, "Will we find her?" But you might word it differently. Then, to the best of your ability, please cast a chart for the exact time, date, and location when you asked the question. (Which might be some time before you posted your chart.) There are some conventional horary procedures for locating missing objects, pets, and people.

If the person is deceased, presumably the chart will show that.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/missingpersonhoraryexample.html

I will say that Peggy has kind of a difficult-looking natal chart. Do you know if she was attracted to "underworld" types of men with shady or criminal histories? (Venus conjunct Pluto.) Do you know if she suffered from depression? (Natal Saturn conjunct sun with 6 degree orb, disappearance date Saturn exactly conjunct sun, with both in the 12th house.)

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waybread said:

Hi, again, Kristap. I'll do my best with this chart, but for future reference, the most legible free charts available seem to be the ones at Astrodienst www.astro.com . A 75% reduction seems to be about right to fit their charts within the posts over here.

I gather you have no particular relationship with the missing person, which might change which house indicates the quesited (person being inquired about.) A friend, for example, would be symbolized by the 11th house. The 7th is a kind of catch-all house for "miscellaneous" or "other" sorts of people.

I have to stress that I am not psychic and my horary abilities are intermediate. So I certainly wouldn't trust my judgement in terms of contacting the police or Peggy's loved ones. I use a modified traditional approach, meaning I use the modern outer planets only as supplementary data points. Also, I suspect that the date you first asked yourself this question was earlier than yesterday, but I'll go with the chart you've got.

The first thing I look for is the moon's degree, because if it is void-of-the-course (past its last traditional major aspect* before changing signs) it typically means that the situation is unlikely to change. I. e., if Peggy is missing now, she probably either will remain missing, or at least not likely to be found alive**.

For what it's worth, the moon in Peggy's "turned" 12th house (this chart's 6th house) suggests secret enemies (vs. the open enemies one knows about.) I. e., someone who seemed to be good to her but in reality wasn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horary_astrology#Turning_the_chart

*The major aspects are the conjunction, sextile, square, trine, and opposition. The conjunction, sextile, and trine are favourable, the square and opposition indicate that the event may happen, but it won't go well. Then aspects are either applying or separating. This relates to the speed of planets' orbits, and whether the faster-moving planet can catch up with the slower one. The moon is the fastest planet, completing its orbit in about 29 days, whereas Saturn takes about 29 years. An applying aspect means the event is likely to happen, but not a separating aspect; although there are some special circumstances where a seemingly separating aspect will still work out.

**Sometimes planets turn retrograde, meaning that from our position here on earth, they appear to move backward in the sky (i. e., west to east.) In horary astrology a retrograde planet is usually weakened; but it can mean a "return" of some sort: rethinking or revisiting a problem, for example. Your chart doesn't show this, but Jupiter (Peggy) is retrograde, and at 18 degrees of Scorpio, it is lacking in essential dignity. (For a discussion of essential dignity, see: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/digintro.html .)

I would place you, as the querent, in the first house. With Virgo on the cusp, you are signified by Mercury. As an unrelated person, I'd place Peggy in the 7th house. Neptune is the modern ruler of Pisces (sign on the house cusp) and it is in the 7th. The traditional ruler of Pisces is Jupiter, so we'll let Jupiter symbolize Peggy.

Kristap, you mentioned in your other thread being psychic. With Mercury in the 8th house (rules death) I believe that you are thinking that Peggy is probably dead. (Please let me know if I got this right.)

Without getting into too many details, there is also a way in which we "turn" a chart that would put Peggy's own ascendant in the first house. So if she is symbolized by Mercury in the 8th house, according to horary tradition, that probably would mean that she is deceased.

I'm kind of free-wheeling here, but a horary chart should actually give a highly stylized picture of the situation; and one thing that strikes me is that both Mercury and Jupiter are in signs ruled by Mars. (Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio.) Mars has some strength, in the sign of its exaltation. Mars, the Roman god of war, might well symbolize a violent male.

This is just a start. If I get time later today, I'll do a little more research. The chart would also indicate the direction of a missing person and type of location where she (or her remains might be found.)

In the meantime, see if this chart really does symbolize the time when you first asked the question. If it does, fine. If you did ask the question earlier, please input the earlier date, time (and location if different) into the more accurate horary chart.

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waybread said:

Kristap, for what it's worth, I just read the section on missing persons in Olivia Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered.

I hadn't thought about this, but apparently planets-in-signs can also be used for physical descriptions of people. It so happens that in her example, the horary chart also had Mars in Capricorn. Her description: a male who is "thin, dark, with a small head and dark hair." [I stress that in the day when these descriptions were written, physical types were based on Caucasian characteristics only.] Fiery Mars also typically indicates a person with red or reddish hair.

I don't know if either description would match a potential suspect.

"

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waybread said:

Hi, again, Kristap. I'll do my best with this chart, but for future reference, the most legible free charts available seem to be the ones at Astrodienst www.astro.com . A 75% reduction seems to be about right to fit their charts within the posts over here.

I gather you have no particular relationship with the missing person, which might change which house indicates the quesited (person being inquired about.) A friend, for example, would be symbolized by the 11th house. The 7th is a kind of catch-all house for "miscellaneous" or "other" sorts of people.

I have to stress that I am not psychic and my horary abilities are intermediate. So I certainly wouldn't trust my judgement in terms of contacting the police or Peggy's loved ones. I use a modified traditional approach, meaning I use the modern outer planets only as supplementary data points. Also, I suspect that the date you first asked yourself this question was earlier than yesterday, but I'll go with the chart you've got.

The first thing I look for is the moon's degree, because if it is void-of-the-course (past its last traditional major aspect* before changing signs) it typically means that the situation is unlikely to change. I. e., if Peggy is missing now, she probably either will remain missing, or at least not likely to be found alive**.

For what it's worth, the moon in Peggy's "turned" 12th house (this chart's 6th house) suggests secret enemies (vs. the open enemies one knows about.) I. e., someone who seemed to be good to her but in reality wasn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horary_astrology#Turning_the_chart

*The major aspects are the conjunction, sextile, square, trine, and opposition. The conjunction, sextile, and trine are favourable, the square and opposition indicate that the event may happen, but it won't go well. Then aspects are either applying or separating. This relates to the speed of planets' orbits, and whether the faster-moving planet can catch up with the slower one. The moon is the fastest planet, completing its orbit in about 29 days, whereas Saturn takes about 29 years. An applying aspect means the event is likely to happen, but not a separating aspect; although there are some special circumstances where a seemingly separating aspect will still work out.

**Sometimes planets turn retrograde, meaning that from our position here on earth, they appear to move backward in the sky (i. e., west to east.) In horary astrology a retrograde planet is usually weakened; but it can mean a "return" of some sort: rethinking or revisiting a problem, for example. Your chart doesn't show this, but Jupiter (Peggy) is retrograde, and at 18 degrees of Scorpio, it is lacking in essential dignity. (For a discussion of essential dignity, see: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/digintro.html .)

I would place you, as the querent, in the first house. With Virgo on the cusp, you are signified by Mercury. As an unrelated person, I'd place Peggy in the 7th house. Neptune is the modern ruler of Pisces (sign on the house cusp) and it is in the 7th. The traditional ruler of Pisces is Jupiter, so we'll let Jupiter symbolize Peggy.

Kristap, you mentioned in your other thread being psychic. With Mercury in the 8th house (rules death) I believe that you are thinking that Peggy is probably dead. (Please let me know if I got this right.)

Without getting into too many details, there is also a way in which we "turn" a chart that would put Peggy's own ascendant in the first house. So if she is symbolized by Mercury in the 8th house, according to horary tradition, that probably would mean that she is deceased.

I'm kind of free-wheeling here, but a horary chart should actually give a highly stylized picture of the situation; and one thing that strikes me is that both Mercury and Jupiter are in signs ruled by Mars. (Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio.) Mars has some strength, in the sign of its exaltation. Mars, the Roman god of war, might well symbolize a violent male.

This is just a start. If I get time later today, I'll do a little more research. The chart would also indicate the direction of a missing person and type of location where she (or her remains might be found.)

In the meantime, see if this chart really does symbolize the time when you first asked the question. If it does, fine. If you did ask the question earlier, please input the earlier date, time (and location if different) into the more accurate horary chart.

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waybread said:

Kristap, I am unable to open your link. The best thing is to save your chart to your computer, and then to upload it as clickable thumbnail, just like you did for your previous charts.

The 8th house doesn't always symbolize death. In a natal chart, it seems to act in a more metaphorical way; and it also rules investments, inheritances, or resources that are shared in some way. In a missing person horary chart, it more clearly symbolizes death. In this instance, with a missing person who has vanished for two years, there is usually a strong chance that s/he is deceased. Seeing a significator in the 8th house is usually a testimony to this effect.

You are probably aware that astrological signs go by the 4 elements of ancient Greece: earth, air, fire, and water. Pisces and Scorpio, which are highly salient in this chart, are water signs (as is Cancer.) Interestingly, Neptune in the 7th house is the modern ruler of bodies of water (as well as of alcohol and drugs.)

Kristap, I confess to being out of my depth here, but sometimes this is how I learn.

One thing I will mention is that in the case of a missing person, pet, or object, is that the chart gives us directions. South is at the top of the chart, east is to the left, west to the right, and north is at the bottom. With Jupiter in the third house, this would suggest that Peggy went in a north-by-northeast direction from her home or where she was last seen.

Just a great desktop reference is Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book. According to him, Scorpio (Jupiter's sign in your first horary) rules places that are swampy or boggy, places associated with death such as cemeteries, and places associated with the eliminative organs of the body, such as bathrooms and sewers.

I hope at least some of this helps.

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Sunny said:

Here my understanding of the chart: "Where is Peggy M.?"

You, the ASC, are Virgo so you are represented by who is placed in the 8th, that is the house of death and mystery. And as the sign of the 8th is Aries, you are right now to begin your questioning.

The quesited is shown by the 7th, here pisces and his lord Jupiter sits in the 3rd house, the house of Gemini which means neighbours, siblings, little travels or public places and communication, and so on. The 3rd is in the sign of Scorpio and means transformations, mystery once more, underground and dark dirty places.

She, Peggy, is represented by Venus, and also by the lord of the 2nd (Venus again) house for all things lost.
Venus in the 10th shows for me that she isn't far away from you. On the contrary, she is nearby you and could normally be find soon. This could also be understanding that you'll find the answer soon.
Venus aspects Neptune in the 7th, pisces, by square. This is the house of the quesited. Neptun very strong in pisces because he is in his own house (in modern astrology), with the square to Venus, could show us that there is something very elusive for this question or for this girl.
But Neptune trines Jupiter, perhaps there will be a profound connection with something of cloudy water (pisces and Neptune) and neighbourhood or relatives (Scorpio and Jupiter), for example?

So, this was just a try, perhaps you'll have some feelings about these indications?

I wish you good luck!
Sunny

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waybread said:

Hi again, Kristap-- you can't ask the same question more then once in horary, but you can ask a different question. For example, "Is Peggy buried in a nearby cemetery?"

The ban against asking the same question more than once is because (1) if you don't trust the oracle the first time, you don't trust the oracle. (2) Horary goes by the moment of the question, so if you ask more than once, you've got different moments. More spiritual horary astrologers feel that there is something precious or sacred about the moment of the question, and that if it is properly observed, it will yield its answers.

The exception is if the underlying circumstances have dramatically changed. The you can ask the same question again. Some astrologers say to wait 3 months before asking it again.

I think the really good astrologers do have psychic abilities, incidentally.

There is a whole lot more to horary astrology than I know, although I know it's out there. If you find yourself getting into horary astrology, feel free to post questions about it on the horary board.

A nativity, in contrast, will tell you what kind of person you're dealing with. With predictive methods, we can also sense what kinds of stresses s/he was dealing with at a critical time.

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waybread said:

I would recommend a good basic textbook on modern natal astrology to acquaint yourself with planets, signs, and houses. The two I like best are Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky; and Robert Hand, Planets in Youth (good for all ages.) Then because horary astrology is more traditional western than modern, try this tutorial on introductory horary astrology: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html, and/or J. Lee Lehman, The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, or Olivia Barclay, Horary Astrology Rediscovered. (She's considered a bit out-of-date but she's one of the easier books to follow.) The basic meanings of planets, signs, and houses carry over from natal into horary, but they get a whole lot more detailed.

Basically in horary astrology, just about everything is assigned a house that rules it. We might also wish to look at planetary or sign rulers. The best source I know of is a magisterial compendium of these rulerships, Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book, published by the American Federation of Astrologers. I think all these books are available at amazon.

The rulerships of objects, places, types of people, &c make a certain amount of sense, once you know what the core meanings are for planets, signs, and houses.

The grand-daddy of horary astrologers was a 17th century Englishman named William Lilly, so you will often find horary astrologers referring to him. His textbook is here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/CA.html

Perhaps you've already determined that there are two major schools of western astrology: traditional, using methods developed before about 1800; and modern, using methods developed after the late 19th century. There is some overlap, but also signal differences. WW 3 breaks out with debates as to which system is best. I normally do modern for nativities, but a simplified traditional system for horaries.

Don't worry if you can't pick this up quickly. There is so much to learn! Patience.

Either way:

The querent (person asking the question) is the first house. We look at the sign on the house cusp, and determine which planet rules it. The quesited (matter or person inquired about) will be a different house, depending upon which house rules the quesited. If it's a friend, for example, that's an 11th house matter. Similarly, we look at the sign on the house cusp, and determine which planet rules it.

The rulerships are:

Aries: Mars
Taurus: Venus
Gemini: Mercury
Cancer: moon
Leo: sun
Virgo: Mercury
Libra: Venus
Scorpio: Mars (traditional,) Pluto (modern)
Sagittarius: Jupiter
Capricorn: Saturn
Aquarius: Saturn (traditional,) Uranus (modern)
Pisces: Jupiter (traditional,) Neptune (modern)

The 7th normally includes committed romantic relationships like marriage plus the open enemies one knows about (vs. secretive back-stabbers,) but in horary the 7th is also a catch-all for people who don't readily fit into other houses.

Unfortunately there's not as much agreement on what rules what, so sometimes you just have to see what fits. The chart should give a picture of the event, if it is "radical" (valid.) Rex E. Bills gives Saturn, Capricorn, Pluto, and Scorpio as ruling cemeteries, so we can look at all of them to see what comes up.

to be continued

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