Which House Cusp Method?

Jupit3r · Mar 22, 2013

From my experience, houses in a horoscope usually have 2 (with the exception of interceptions) signs in them. How does the second sign and any the planets manifest themself?

For instance my 10th house cusp is Cancer, but I have Jupiter in Leo. What does that mean?

P.S. I guess this leads to a bigger question of whether I should be using equal houses or what seems like to be the default method,*placedus.

And and all thoughts welcome

JUPITERASC · Mar 22, 2013

Jupit3r said:
From my experience, houses in a horoscope usually have 2 (with the exception of interceptions) signs in them. How does the second sign and any the planets manifest themself?

For instance my 10th house cusp is Cancer, but I have Jupiter in Leo. What does that mean?

P.S. I guess this leads to a bigger question of whether I should be using equal houses or what seems like to be the default method,*placedus.

And and all thoughts welcome

House 'distortion' is caused by the shape of planet earth so that the more distant from the equator - either North or South - the birth occurs, then the more 'distorted' are the houses. This 'problem' is solved by using whole sign houses

astro.com has an Extended Chart Selection page that offers options of choice between fourteen different house systems, one of which is whole sign house system. A brief article at http://www.librarising.com/astrology...ignhouses.html explains the origin of house systems

Experimenting with viewing the natal chart using whole sign houses clarifies many issues. Viewing your natal chart in whole signs is the way to assign topics to house. Experiment. :smile:

Alice McDermott · Mar 22, 2013

JUPITERASC said:
House 'distortion' is caused by the shape of planet earth so that the more distant from the equator - either North or South - the birth occurs, then the more 'distorted' are the houses. This 'problem' is solved by using whole sign houses

The problem isn't solved, it is just ignored! Whole signs just use the signs of the zodiac arranged from 0 degrees of the sign rising on the Eastern horizon and discards house systems altogether.

This then ignores all the fine tuning the house systems can offer - including the correlations between equivalent house degrees and planet zodiac degrees in the charts of families.

If you are a beginner the Whole Sign concept can give you a simple start in astrology and this can be helpful in enabling you to learn the basics, but if you are interested in learning more and discovering which house system has the best resonance with you, then try out the method I detail here: http://aliceportman.com/house-cusps-and-house-systems/

Alice

dr. farr · Mar 23, 2013

Each whole sign house has a "cusp" (sensitive point) within the house, which is a projection from the ascending degree of the chart. So, say the ascending degree is 9 Aries: the "cusp" (sensitive degree) of the 8th house would be 9 Scorpio, of the 12th house, 9 Pisces, etc; each house in whole sign STARTS at 0 degree of the sign and ENDS at 29:59:59 of the sign, HOWEVER, each whole sign house ALSO has a cuspal degree (sensitive degree) within it as well (as just explained) These whole sign cuspal points (sensitive degrees) can be used for all the same advanced delineative purposes, as the "cusps" found in quandrant house systems.

Cypocryphy · Mar 23, 2013

dr. farr said:
Each whole sign house has a "cusp" (sensitive point) within the house, which is a projection from the ascending degree of the chart. So, say the ascending degree is 9 Aries: the "cusp" (sensitive degree) of the 8th house would be 9 Scorpio, of the 12th house, 9 Pisces, etc; each house in whole sign STARTS at 0 degree of the sign and ENDS at 29:59:59 of the sign, HOWEVER, each whole sign house ALSO has a cuspal degree (sensitive degree) within it as well (as just explained) These whole sign cuspal points (sensitive degrees) can be used for all the same advanced delineative purposes, as the "cusps" found in quandrant house systems.

Is this similar to the Vedic house division, whereby the sensitive point is in the middle of the house? This would be where there is a 14.45 degree on one half, and 14.45 degrees on the other half, with the house' sensitive point in the middle.

Cypocryphy · Mar 23, 2013

Alice McDermott said:
The problem isn't solved, it is just ignored! Whole signs just use the signs of the zodiac arranged from 0 degrees of the sign rising on the Eastern horizon and discards house systems altogether.

This then ignores all the fine tuning the house systems can offer - including the correlations between equivalent house degrees and planet zodiac degrees in the charts of families.

If you are a beginner the Whole Sign concept can give you a simple start in astrology and this can be helpful in enabling you to learn the basics, but if you are interested in learning more and discovering which house system has the best resonance with you, then try out the method I detail here: http://aliceportman.com/house-cusps-and-house-systems/

Alice

Interesting. So we would use Uranus for this process? So by watching Uranus transit over the Ascendant or Midheaven (or other cusps) would provide evidence of which house system resonates?

I imagine we'd use Uranus because its effect is disruptive enough to be noticeable, but what about Saturn? I think Saturn would work really well.

Do you think you could explain the process of using Age Harmonics to differentiate between cusps within the same minute or so? I didn't see it on your site, but maybe that's because I'm tired right now. :smile:

You mentioned on your website that you think the reason for individual preference of house systems is due to one's genetics and/or location. I thought about it for a moment, and I can't imagine that one's genetic make-up would influence or, rather, resonate better with a particular house system. This sounds more like confusing something that might have a strong correlation with causation. If this method proved to be true, it would simply be due to directly assessing the prime effects of a planet on one's particular place on Earth. Because energies do not stop and start at a particular point but operate on a gradient, this method would seem to help pinpoint peak fluctuations of energy patterns in time and space. And perhaps when the Moon is nay high and the Sun is at its Zenith, a particular spermatazoon swims faster to the ovum. But that all house systems and chromosomes have some invisible relationship to one another seems too along the lines of magical thinking. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the case.

Anyway, I really think this is an interesting method. I think its a great idea. :smile:

P.S. What program do you use for the horoscopes on your website? I like that really clean look.

dr. farr · Mar 23, 2013

Cypocryphy said:
Is this similar to the Vedic house division, whereby the sensitive point is in the middle of the house? This would be where there is a 14.45 degree on one half, and 14.45 degrees on the other half, with the house' sensitive point in the middle.

No. Actually Vedic astrology (like Western) originally used whole sign houses (Equal house and a porphyry-based quadrant system coming in later in Vedic astrology) There is no mathematical or geometrical "manipulation" of houses or "cusps" (sensitive points) in the whole sign house method: each house begins and ends in turn at 0 (and 29:59:59) of the respective sign, but the POINT ("cusp", original meaning of that word) of each house is determined by an exact projection from the ASCENDING degree of the chart, so that each house has a specific "connection" (as its sensitive point) with the ascending degree. Where, in each house, this "cusp" (sensitive degree) might fall, is entirely dependant upon where in its sign the ascending degree rose: could be at the very beginning of the sign, in the middle, at the end, etc; so, for each subsequent house in that chart, the "cusp" (sensitive degree) of that house will be in the same relationship to that sign/house (beginning, middle, end, etc) as the ascending degree is to the ascending sign (the entire ascending sign is always the first house in the whole sign format)

Alice McDermott · Mar 23, 2013

Cypocryphy said:
Interesting. So we would use Uranus for this process? So by watching Uranus transit over the Ascendant or Midheaven (or other cusps) would provide evidence of which house system resonates?

I imagine we'd use Uranus because its effect is disruptive enough to be noticeable, but what about Saturn? I think Saturn would work really well.

Hi Cypocryphy

I chose Uranus because its actions are usually sudden, unexpected and very visible; it also usually works on time. In my site I used the example of transiting Uranus activating my Koch third cusp when I unexpectedly flew to Sydney to be with my brother who had to have a tumour removed from his spine.

Saturn tends to work a little later and Mars a little earlier so weren't as appropriate for finely tuned work on house cusps.

Do you think you could explain the process of using Age Harmonics to differentiate between cusps within the same minute or so? I didn't see it on your site, but maybe that's because I'm tired right now.

I have written quite a bit about Day Age Harmonics (DAH) here: http://aliceportman.com/daily-age-harmonics/ that explains how they are used.

To get the DAH of the house cusp with which I wish to work I create a chart on Solar Fire with the degree, minute and second of that cusp on the Ascendant and then do the harmonic. Alternatively, using the 360 wheel (i.e. 0 Aries = 0, 0 Taurus = 30, 0 Gemini = 60 ..) you can use a calculator to key in the degree, minute and second of the cusp, multiply this with the DAH of the event and then take away multiples of 360 degrees until you get within the zodiac.

You mentioned on your website that you think the reason for individual preference of house systems is due to one's genetics and/or location. I thought about it for a moment, and I can't imagine that one's genetic make-up would influence or, rather, resonate better with a particular house system.

I am by no means an expert on this as yet. These are my current thoughts on the matter.

I have always seen the house system(s) as a map of our energy field - our own little zodiac! i.e. just as the Earth's energy field is the tropical zodiac, each individual's house system shows how that manifests in their personal life. This is almost certainly genetic* and perhaps its harmonics are related to the location on Earth where a person is born.

I know house systems are very, very personal as almost all discussions on them lead to strong emotional reactions - to the point of some astrologers refusing to have any dialogue with me because I don't consider their chosen house system (or lack of a house system) works with everyone in the world. Because I have received more 'flack' from this (and at times downright hatred and abuse publically and privately) than any other idea in astrology I have presented, I came to the conclusion that house systems are very important indeed and strongly affect people, so it is worthwhile finding which system is likely to be the most powerful for an individual.

This sounds more like confusing something that might have a strong correlation with causation. If this method proved to be true, it would simply be due to directly assessing the prime effects of a planet on one's particular place on Earth. Because energies do not stop and start at a particular point but operate on a gradient, this method would seem to help pinpoint peak fluctuations of energy patterns in time and space. And perhaps when the Moon is nay high and the Sun is at its Zenith, a particular spermatazoon swims faster to the ovum. But that all house systems and chromosomes have some invisible relationship to one another seems too along the lines of magical thinking. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the case.

Well, you might be right! I am not the voice of god, I just present my ideas for forumites to think about. Still, I do think everything on Earth is interconnected and the harmonics of the birth moment as mapped by house systems could have a strong effect. From my own work to date this does seem to be the case.

P.S. What program do you use for the horoscopes on your website? I like that really clean look.

Its Solar Fire Small2.whl. I like it as it is nice and clear and very easy to quickly read.

* to my fascination I found that there is often a strong correlation between Equivalent House Degrees and planetary zodiac degrees in members of a family. This can only occur in a natural birth and doesn't always involve just parents or siblings, it can involve uncles, aunts, grandparents etc., This gives a very close connection between these two people and can explain connections that are not always obvious in the two charts. I describe this using the British Royal Family as examples here: http://aliceportman.com/planet-sign-house/ scroll down to the last section.

To calculate these connections it is important to have the correct house system for the individual.

Alice

JUPITERASC · Mar 23, 2013

dr. farr said:
Each whole sign house has a "cusp" (sensitive point) within the house, which is a projection from the ascending degree of the chart. So, say the ascending degree is 9 Aries: the "cusp" (sensitive degree) of the 8th house would be 9 Scorpio, of the 12th house, 9 Pisces, etc; each house in whole sign STARTS at 0 degree of the sign and ENDS at 29:59:59 of the sign, HOWEVER, each whole sign house ALSO has a cuspal degree (sensitive degree) within it as well (as just explained) These whole sign cuspal points (sensitive degrees) can be used for all the same advanced delineative purposes, as the "cusps" found in quandrant house systems.

Cypocryphy said:
Is this similar to the Vedic house division, whereby the sensitive point is in the middle of the house? This would be where there is a 14.45 degree on one half, and 14.45 degrees on the other half, with the house' sensitive point in the middle.

Here's a detailed description on this matter posted by dr. farr some time ago :smile:

dr. farr said:
Cusps:

Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something) For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME) I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?
Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

Jupit3r · Mar 24, 2013

Interesting discussion guys!

Since I'm just digging into the deeper techniques of astrology, I've been doing some experimenting with this. It seems to me that if you look at the chart from a whole sign perspective first, as it was said earlier in the thread, it locks in issues to a certain house. It's easier to comprehend how energies are likely to be used and perceived when you make hard delineations by house and element of expression.

But of course the world isn't black and white like this. So it helps to subsequently look at it from another system (Placidus ect.) You get a better view of what signs expression are being buried (intercepted signs) and you also learn about where certain planets will ultimately end up expressing themselves.

For example in my own chart (Placidus) I have Taurus on the 8th house point and Gemini mars conjunct vesta in the back Of the house. But in whole sign, Mars/Vesta appears in the beginning of the Gemini 9th house. I take this to mean that though I am transforming and refocusing my intellectual and physical desire's in the 8th, ultimately I will end using the benefits of deeper understanding and widened perspective In the house cusp that the gemini energy belongs to; the 9th.

I have similar situations happening with Jupiter and Venus which appear in the back of the house in Placidus and the beginning of the next house in Whole sign. Leo Jupiter in 10th House Vancer and Virgo Venus in 11th house Leo (Placidus) that in whole sign, appear 11th house Jupiter in Leo and 12th House Venus in Virgo.

I've read interpretations of each of these planets in the different fluctuating houses and find things true about all of them, especially 12th house Venus which is 11th house natally.

I figured this made some intuitive sense as by progression almost all of these planets have and will end up progressing into the subsequent house in my chart. This also works well with the theory that the energy represented by planets works in a gradient manner. There's a lot of spilling over and blending of spiritual energy. In a similar way to how sound accumulates

But of course these are just the findings of my chart.

Any Thoughts?

Cypocryphy · Mar 24, 2013

Alice McDermott said:
Hi Cypocryphy

Hey Alice!

I chose Uranus because its actions are usually sudden, unexpected and very visible; it also usually works on time. In my site I used the example of transiting Uranus activating my Koch third cusp when I unexpectedly flew to Sydney to be with my brother who had to have a tumour removed from his spine.

Saturn tends to work a little later and Mars a little earlier so weren't as appropriate for finely tuned work on house cusps.

OK. I'll give it a try.

I have written quite a bit about Day Age Harmonics (DAH) here: http://aliceportman.com/daily-age-harmonics/ that explains how they are used.

Nice! Thanks for the link.

To get the DAH of the house cusp with which I wish to work I create a chart on Solar Fire with the degree, minute and second of that cusp on the Ascendant and then do the harmonic. Alternatively, using the 360 wheel (i.e. 0 Aries = 0, 0 Taurus = 30, 0 Gemini = 60 ..) you can use a calculator to key in the degree, minute and second of the cusp, multiply this with the DAH of the event and then take away multiples of 360 degrees until you get within the zodiac.

OK. I'll give it go . . . :smile:

I am by no means an expert on this as yet. These are my current thoughts on the matter.

I have always seen the house system(s) as a map of our energy field - our own little zodiac! i.e. just as the Earth's energy field is the tropical zodiac, each individual's house system shows how that manifests in their personal life. This is almost certainly genetic* and perhaps its harmonics are related to the location on Earth where a person is born.

Perhaps there is merit in this thesis. Although I tend to look for some physical element to the causal connection within astrology, it very well could be something entirely different, something metaphysical. I think Robert Zoller would be in agreement with you, to some extent. To my understanding, his reasoning for why astrology works is based on mathematical synchronisity. He's heavily influenced by Kabbalah and other occult medieval "sciences." It could very well be true and as Zoller states, is the reason why Lots and other mathematically derived points work so well.

As for as some physical causal connection to house variation, I tend to think of it as influenced by Earth's magnetosphere. There seems to be a variation based on differing wavelength and amplitude, forming a sine wave.

I hypothesize that these energy fields have slight variation in amplitude and length in relation to a person's location. So when one derives houses, the cusps will occasionally delineate points of high amplitude, but because the energy levels fluctuate through space and time, one house system cannot always accurate isolate those points of high amplitude.

Here's a kindy picture I drew to show what I'm talking about:

The orange and blue lines represent one energy field (e.g., the magnetosphere), but I used different colors to depict high amplitudes at differing points in time. In this instance, the blue sine wave will reflect peak levels five minutes later.

I'm looking into some experiments that were done by to help explain this phenomenon, but as of at this moment, this is my theory. Which will probably be wrong! :smile:

I suppose I could have explained this better, but my mind is tired, and I'm feeling really lazy. :lol:

I know house systems are very, very personal as almost all discussions on them lead to strong emotional reactions - to the point of some astrologers refusing to have any dialogue with me because I don't consider their chosen house system (or lack of a house system) works with everyone in the world. Because I have received more 'flack' from this (and at times downright hatred and abuse publically and privately) than any other idea in astrology I have presented, I came to the conclusion that house systems are very important indeed and strongly affect people, so it is worthwhile finding which system is likely to be the most powerful for an individual.

Jeez! What's the point of that? If a house system works for someone, what does it matter if someone uses a different house system. As you can see from my belief, I think that most houses systems work some of the time because they are trying to capture a "moving target." I can't see there being a perfect house system.

Well, you might be right! I am not the voice of god, I just present my ideas for forumites to think about. Still, I do think everything on Earth is interconnected and the harmonics of the birth moment as mapped by house systems could have a strong effect. From my own work to date this does seem to be the case.

Yeah! I think it's a great idea. It got me thinking. :smile:

Its Solar Fire Small2.whl. I like it as it is nice and clear and very easy to quickly read.

Nice. Looks great!

* to my fascination I found that there is often a strong correlation between Equivalent House Degrees and planetary zodiac degrees in members of a family. This can only occur in a natural birth and doesn't always involve just parents or siblings, it can involve uncles, aunts, grandparents etc., This gives a very close connection between these two people and can explain connections that are not always obvious in the two charts. I describe this using the British Royal Family as examples here: http://aliceportman.com/planet-sign-house/ scroll down to the last section.

To calculate these connections it is important to have the correct house system for the individual.

Alice

Awesome! Thanks Alice. :smile:

Alice McDermott · Mar 24, 2013

Cypocryphy said:
As for as some physical causal connection to house variation, I tend to think of it as influenced by Earth's magnetosphere. There seems to be a variation based on differing wavelength and amplitude, forming a sine wave.

I hypothesize that these energy fields have slight variation in amplitude and length in relation to a person's location. So when one derives houses, the cusps will occasionally delineate points of high amplitude, but because the energy levels fluctuate through space and time, one house system cannot always accurate isolate those points of high amplitude.

Here's a kindy picture I drew to show what I'm talking about:

The orange and blue lines represent one energy field (e.g., the magnetosphere), but I used different colors to depict high amplitudes at differing points in time. In this instance, the blue sine wave will reflect peak levels five minutes later.

I'm looking into some experiments that were done by to help explain this phenomenon, but as of at this moment, this is my theory. Which will probably be wrong!

I suppose I could have explained this better, but my mind is tired, and I'm feeling really lazy.

Hi Cypocryphy

This looks fascinating. I wish I had this kind of mind!

Please work more on your idea when your mind isn't tired and you don't feel lazy as I am sure it could bear some most interesting dividends.

Alice

Cypocryphy · Mar 24, 2013

Alice McDermott said:
Hi Cypocryphy

This looks fascinating. I wish I had this kind of mind!

Please work more on your idea when your mind isn't tired and you don't feel lazy as I am sure it could bear some most interesting dividends.

Alice

Thanks, Alice. :smile:

LeoCassandra · Apr 9, 2013

O my! I think im convinced to whole house method :w00t:

dr. farr · Apr 10, 2013

LeoCassandra said:
O my! I think im convinced to whole house method

Welcome to the club :joyful:

Of course, there are very few of us (estimates for those in the West who use the whole sign house format range from 5% to perhaps as high as 10%; although we have made good progress-prior to around 2000, there were 0 practitioners in the West, using this ancient house format! We largely have Robert Hand to thank for bringing this long forgotten, original house format, to the attention of the Western world-at least I thank him for doing so :smile:

!)

preeshuu · Apr 10, 2013

Dr Farr ,

My ascendant degree of chart is 19.5 tauras , so the planets that are 15 degree to 25 degree will be most effective as compared to the ones in 0-10 degree and 25-30 degree ??

Please advc

Thanks and regards.

dr. farr · Apr 10, 2013

Everything else being equal (ie, no other special factors being involved), yes.

preeshuu · Apr 10, 2013

hello Dr Farr ,

every thing else being equal means ?

pls throw some light on this pls
regards.

dr. farr · Apr 10, 2013

IN other words, if we exclude consideration of decans, duodenaries, terms, that the planets might be in (which can have more of an influence than what part of a house the planet is in relative to the sensitive point or "cusp" of that house), and also exlude consideration of whether the planet is in a pitted, elevated, bright or dark degree, then YES, the planet being closer to the cusp (sensitive point) of the given house/sign, would tend to make that planet more effective than if it were farther away from the cusp (sensitive point) of the given house/sign.

Vedic astrology gives MUCH importance to what part of the house/sign the planet is posited in; HOWEVER in the ECLECTIC approach I follow I do not give this that much importance, and the considerations I have just listed are more significant (in the eclectic approach) than position in the house/sign.

preeshuu · Apr 11, 2013

Dr Farr,
I agree. In vedic a planet during his dasha gives effects of the nakhstra as well .so there are many things attached i guess
however i feel planet during his dasha gives result acc to lordship and the house he occupies acc to the natural nature as well as the functional nature
how intense the result will be depends on his strength

i hope i am correct

regards.

Which House Cusp Method?

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