david starling
Well-known member
Sometimes, there IS no available solution. Saturn can only tell you to expect disaster. But, is that really Saturn's fault?
Saturn and "character building": Why I hate Saturn
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IleneK
Premium Member
That's a fair and honest answer.
I can only reply that if you don't know what grow up means, then it is unlikely you have grown up.
Growing up is an evolution in perspective. Growing up is embracing the evolving part, the ever-moving part, the process, not the perspective itself.
Growing up is not things that you do, like get a job, move out, pay rent. It is a recognition that things are always, always changing. That nothing is permanent; so don't get too attached to anything. It is about wholeheartedly meeting your very own life as it is in this very moment. Without accepting or rejecting it.
This is part of what appears to be one of Saturn's hard lessons. It's a good practice to try to undertake.
david starling
Well-known member
As an archetype, Saturn has a very unsavory reputation:
•The Devil, "Satan, Prince of this World", from Christian scripture.
•The "Grim Reaper" , which carries Saturn's symbol, the harvest sycthe.
•The "Devourer of Children".
•The "Greater Malefic", of ancient astrology.
Are we supposed to ignore these appellations entirely, and go only with "The Wise Teacher"?
•The Devil, "Satan, Prince of this World", from Christian scripture.
•The "Grim Reaper" , which carries Saturn's symbol, the harvest sycthe.
•The "Devourer of Children".
•The "Greater Malefic", of ancient astrology.
Are we supposed to ignore these appellations entirely, and go only with "The Wise Teacher"?
david starling
Well-known member
"Saturnine" is derived from the name of the planet Saturn:
•Dour, meaning relentlessly severe.
•Gloomy
•Humorless
•Melancholy
•Somber
According to the ancient Roman religion, Saturn went insane with lust for power after committing patricide, then devoured his own children for fear they would usurp his authority.
Fear is the emotion most associated with Saturn.
^Is all of this completely irrelevant to an understanding of what Saturn means in astrology?
•Dour, meaning relentlessly severe.
•Gloomy
•Humorless
•Melancholy
•Somber
According to the ancient Roman religion, Saturn went insane with lust for power after committing patricide, then devoured his own children for fear they would usurp his authority.
Fear is the emotion most associated with Saturn.
^Is all of this completely irrelevant to an understanding of what Saturn means in astrology?
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david starling
Well-known member
As the half-mortal, abandoned son of Saturn, Chiron was a wounded healer. He was beyond the help of even his mentor, Apollo, the god of healing.
Saturn was known as the god of accidents. Coincidentally, Hercules accidentally wounded Chiron with a poisoned arrow.
Saturn was known as the god of accidents. Coincidentally, Hercules accidentally wounded Chiron with a poisoned arrow.
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david starling
Well-known member
Chiron was known as "the Wise Teacher", and Chiron is about "character building ".
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waybread
Well-known member
You don't need to ignore them, but let's interpret them.
I don't believe in the existence of the devil or Satan. Do you, seriously?
Saturn symbolized the passage of time, as the god Chronos, from which we get our word chronology. Until recently (and in some cultures even today) infant mortality was really high. Even a child didn't have great odds of survival.
But metaphorically, the living child disappears anyway, with the passage of time, so that the young man or woman can take its place. The child is gone ("devoured") but the young adult continues.
Everybody is going to die eventually. Saturn represents that inevitable passage. It's not somehow hard luck that people die. That is the condition of being human.
Traditional astrology holds that really bad things happen to people. Saturn symbolizes this outlook, as do (to a lesser extent) Mars, the 12th, 6th, and 8th houses.
OK. So "into each life some rain must fall." Saturn says, "Bring an umbrella."
waybread
Well-known member
Again, metaphorically, time (Saturn as Chronos) devours children.
Ironically, in ancient Greco-Roman mythology, Saturn ruled over the Golden Age period of their history. He rules agriculture, which the Greeks and Romans saw as essential for their settled, civilized way of life. (Prior to the discovery of astrological Ceres.)
david starling
Well-known member
But, you have to learn to bring an umbrella on your own, after getting caught out in the rain at least once. Saturn gives the test, its up to you to learn the lesson. Saturn doesn't teach, it tests, as in "withstanding the test of Time".
david starling
Well-known member
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."-{Abe Lincoln}
What makes you think I am "lazing around the whole day"?
aquarius7000
Well-known member
Where did I say You are lazing around? Can you show me? :roll eyes:
Neptunian Rainbow
Well-known member
I do not agree with how many people look at Saturnian issues. I see many Saturnian people who work too hard
and who take on too much responsiblity. They get overburdened,
used by others and they get exhausted. The solution for this is not the one we read about everywhere when we read about Saturn: "work harder and be more responsible and patiently await your rewards".
Saturn represents governments and the structures of our socities and our reality. We have been
programmed with the belief that things like money, status and materialism is what matters in life and many people who don´t achieve those things will feel like failures.
The people who get the most amount of power and money are narcissists and psychopaths.
There has never before in human history been such a huge discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
I believe I have read that there are about 30-40 million trafficking victims in the world and there are many slaves who work
hard for a bowl of rice per day. People in the western society have more money than
the poor slaves, but they are programmed to work hard and to spend the extra money they have on buying
things the slaves have produced.
They feel that they
never have enough and their aim in life is to work harder and buy more things to add to their level of status
(both their work and
their consumerism yields more money to the rich). More people are starting to realize
that they feel like slaves and that their lives feel meaningless. We call this as a rise of mental health issues. I call it a process of awakening to reality.
"It is no measure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti
In the past it was easier to get ahead in the western society. Workplaces are now more demanding,
houses are more expensive and old people hold on to high positions so that it gets more
difficult for the young to climb. Many young people have studied at the university
and worked hard like they were told to and still find themselves failing at getting "succesful" and
happy in this system.
Many young people have mental and physical issues which makes
it even more difficult for them. I believe that
things are like this because the stars have aligned in order to create big changes.
Many are born with charts that gives them urges to break free. They long for something better. Like the thread starter has mentioned, human relationships are the
most important thing and more and more people are starting to feel that they lack the deep, meaningful
and loving connections that
they desire to experience with other people. People are harsh towards each other (also at this forum) and we
need more kindness.The harshness adds to the despair and depression among people.
Uranus makes us want to break free from the Saturnian prison and create new structures of the society
and our personal lives
that are aligned with our true nature. Chiron (our deepest wounding) is said to be
the rainbow bridge between Saturn and Uranus that unlocks the conscious awareness of the outer planets
(Barbara Hand)
As I see it, this world is structured in order to satisfy the needs of heartless psychopaths and narcissists and they need slaves that they can use and abuse. Instead the world should be adapted to the needs
of the most humane people among us. They are the ones who understand how we can create a wonderful world.
In the dark ages life was even more brutal than now. Which type of people do
you think improved things? The ones who repeated "this is how life is, life is unfair,
accept it and adapt to it and follow the societal rules. If you don´t like it you are too sensitive/weak or you expect too
much from this world", or was it the ones who said: "This world is sick and I can´t stand it, it has
to be changed".
Avicii had a T-square with Neptune/Uranus/Saturn opposite Jupiter/Chiron squaring Mercury. Look at the
video below. Due to his chart he was able to SEE and FEEL that this world is not ok and he longed for something better.
Despite his "success" he felt like a slave to the musical industry and he was suffering.
Have a look at his video "For a better day"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-knHXSKYY
and who take on too much responsiblity. They get overburdened,
used by others and they get exhausted. The solution for this is not the one we read about everywhere when we read about Saturn: "work harder and be more responsible and patiently await your rewards".
Saturn represents governments and the structures of our socities and our reality. We have been
programmed with the belief that things like money, status and materialism is what matters in life and many people who don´t achieve those things will feel like failures.
The people who get the most amount of power and money are narcissists and psychopaths.
There has never before in human history been such a huge discrepancy between the rich and the poor.
I believe I have read that there are about 30-40 million trafficking victims in the world and there are many slaves who work
hard for a bowl of rice per day. People in the western society have more money than
the poor slaves, but they are programmed to work hard and to spend the extra money they have on buying
things the slaves have produced.
They feel that they
never have enough and their aim in life is to work harder and buy more things to add to their level of status
(both their work and
their consumerism yields more money to the rich). More people are starting to realize
that they feel like slaves and that their lives feel meaningless. We call this as a rise of mental health issues. I call it a process of awakening to reality.
"It is no measure of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society" Krishnamurti
In the past it was easier to get ahead in the western society. Workplaces are now more demanding,
houses are more expensive and old people hold on to high positions so that it gets more
difficult for the young to climb. Many young people have studied at the university
and worked hard like they were told to and still find themselves failing at getting "succesful" and
happy in this system.
Many young people have mental and physical issues which makes
it even more difficult for them. I believe that
things are like this because the stars have aligned in order to create big changes.
Many are born with charts that gives them urges to break free. They long for something better. Like the thread starter has mentioned, human relationships are the
most important thing and more and more people are starting to feel that they lack the deep, meaningful
and loving connections that
they desire to experience with other people. People are harsh towards each other (also at this forum) and we
need more kindness.The harshness adds to the despair and depression among people.
Uranus makes us want to break free from the Saturnian prison and create new structures of the society
and our personal lives
that are aligned with our true nature. Chiron (our deepest wounding) is said to be
the rainbow bridge between Saturn and Uranus that unlocks the conscious awareness of the outer planets
(Barbara Hand)
As I see it, this world is structured in order to satisfy the needs of heartless psychopaths and narcissists and they need slaves that they can use and abuse. Instead the world should be adapted to the needs
of the most humane people among us. They are the ones who understand how we can create a wonderful world.
In the dark ages life was even more brutal than now. Which type of people do
you think improved things? The ones who repeated "this is how life is, life is unfair,
accept it and adapt to it and follow the societal rules. If you don´t like it you are too sensitive/weak or you expect too
much from this world", or was it the ones who said: "This world is sick and I can´t stand it, it has
to be changed".
Avicii had a T-square with Neptune/Uranus/Saturn opposite Jupiter/Chiron squaring Mercury. Look at the
video below. Due to his chart he was able to SEE and FEEL that this world is not ok and he longed for something better.
Despite his "success" he felt like a slave to the musical industry and he was suffering.
Have a look at his video "For a better day"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-knHXSKYY
david starling
Well-known member
Beautiful!
waybread
Well-known member
Neptunian Rainbow, I wonder if you live a very Neptunian sort of life in a social welfare state. I wonder if Sweden's generous social safety net enables you to have a level of basic comfort that many people in other countries cannot count on if they lose a job or do not have health care coverage.
While modern society is peopled by achievement junkies clawing their way to the top, it's important to consider Saturn in the lives of very ordinary people .
I don't know if you have been a single mother of young children, who needed her job to keep a roof over their heads and bread on the table. When I was in this position, I used to put a $20 bill or two in my sock drawer right after I got paid, so that at least I could buy milk and a few necessities at the end of the month. I took work home with me from the office, often saying up past midnight, so that I could give my children my full attention when they were awake and wanting my care.
So yes, Saturn teaches lessons like perseverance and deferred gratification.
I don't know which poor people you mean, but you'd probably have to take different nations on a case by case basis. Probably you've heard of the Grameen Bank and microcredit, local economic development projects designed with the participation of the target beneficiaries, efforts to increase education for girls and women's entrepreneurship, and so on.
Saturn does not rule money: that's Mercury (traditional) although some modern astrologers prefer Venus as the ruler of money.
In mundane astrology, the government in power is a 10th house matter. Unless you have Saturn in the 10th or a Saturn ruled sign on the 10th house cusp, Saturn probably does not symbolize the government. (And no, I do not use so-called "natural" house rulers.)
Saturn rules things that are material and concrete.
Uranus is all about liberation, but it's a kind of 1970's evolutionary astrology that envisions Uranus bursting Saturn's restrictions. Saturn isn't going away. I say this as a very Uranian person (sun, Mercury, Venus in Aquarius, Uranus conjunct MC and trine sun.)
I get that Saturn doesn't seem like a whole heap of fun.
Jupiter is the planetary ruler of higher education and unfortunately it can give university students an overly optimistic sense of entitlement that is not realistic.
Ah, yes-- the "Dark Ages." This was a time when Arab scholars excelled in mathematics and astronomy. This was a time when much of Europe was free of centuries of Roman oppression.
As astrologer Steven Forrest put it, no planet is in the sky just to hurt us.
Saturn's lesson is fundamentally about maturity and taking responsibility.
While modern society is peopled by achievement junkies clawing their way to the top, it's important to consider Saturn in the lives of very ordinary people .
I don't know if you have been a single mother of young children, who needed her job to keep a roof over their heads and bread on the table. When I was in this position, I used to put a $20 bill or two in my sock drawer right after I got paid, so that at least I could buy milk and a few necessities at the end of the month. I took work home with me from the office, often saying up past midnight, so that I could give my children my full attention when they were awake and wanting my care.
So yes, Saturn teaches lessons like perseverance and deferred gratification.
I don't know which poor people you mean, but you'd probably have to take different nations on a case by case basis. Probably you've heard of the Grameen Bank and microcredit, local economic development projects designed with the participation of the target beneficiaries, efforts to increase education for girls and women's entrepreneurship, and so on.
Saturn does not rule money: that's Mercury (traditional) although some modern astrologers prefer Venus as the ruler of money.
In mundane astrology, the government in power is a 10th house matter. Unless you have Saturn in the 10th or a Saturn ruled sign on the 10th house cusp, Saturn probably does not symbolize the government. (And no, I do not use so-called "natural" house rulers.)
Saturn rules things that are material and concrete.
Uranus is all about liberation, but it's a kind of 1970's evolutionary astrology that envisions Uranus bursting Saturn's restrictions. Saturn isn't going away. I say this as a very Uranian person (sun, Mercury, Venus in Aquarius, Uranus conjunct MC and trine sun.)
I get that Saturn doesn't seem like a whole heap of fun.
Jupiter is the planetary ruler of higher education and unfortunately it can give university students an overly optimistic sense of entitlement that is not realistic.
Ah, yes-- the "Dark Ages." This was a time when Arab scholars excelled in mathematics and astronomy. This was a time when much of Europe was free of centuries of Roman oppression.
As astrologer Steven Forrest put it, no planet is in the sky just to hurt us.
Saturn's lesson is fundamentally about maturity and taking responsibility.
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david starling
Well-known member
Saturn isn't going away, it just won't be running the show like it is now. In fact, it will provide some welcome stability during the wide-open, Uranian-ruled Age of Aquarius. The glimpse we got of the once and future Aquarian Age in the late 60s and early 70's was a true vision of what hasn't yet come to pass. But it's already entering our real, everyday lives in a slow, transitional way.
Neptunian Rainbow
Well-known member
Waybread,
I have seen different info about what represents governments in astrology and I am confused about which info is correct.
Saturn is not going away, but whatever it represents, it can be transformed.
Astrologers claim that Saturn is about working hard, being patient and then being rewarded. But many people
work hard without getting any rewards.
Powerful people have always wanted the lower classes to "work hard". Religious people have motivated people
by telling them to work hard and do as they told, they will then be rewarded in the afterlife. If they
don´t do as they are told, they will burn in hell for the rest of eternity. It has been an effective way of
creating slaves. Nowadays in the western society the powerful have created a new "religion" which is materialism,
since people stopped believing in the old ideas. I believe that astrology has also been infiltrated with
this idea that we have to "work hard" and patiently await rewards. If we don´t get rewarded we should be humble
and thankful that we are at least alive and realize that it is our own fault for not learning
the "saturnian lessons". Meanwhile the rich are getting richer
I know that many people in the western society are only able to focus on surviving, some are even homeless.
However, the fixation on status affects them as well. Homeless people are treated as if they were contaminated
by the plague and people kick them and pee on them while the rich and the famous are treated like royalty when they move around in our socities.
Regarding Sweden, it is very influenced by Neptune. People believe that our country is what it was in the 70s but that
is far from the truth. Our welfare system is an illusion. I am certainly not naive about the world, I feel as if I don´t know how to exist in this world because the suffering among humans affects me so badly.
I am very affected by Saturn and I have always taken to much responsability, given to much and worked to hard due
to fears, insecurities and a feeling of being beneath other people. The harder I work to prove my worth, the less respect I get from
other people and the more they will use me. By breaking free from fears and insecurities I have managed to be more authentic,
take less responsability for
other people and feel more worthy
of respect and appreciation. That has led to me having really great friends who appreciate me for who I am
and I have a partner who sees me as an angel. I still work so hard at jobs that
I develop health issues though. The solution for that problem is not to work harder, it is to be more self loving.
I see more people than me with these types of saturnian issues.
I know one person who has Saturn on the Dsc and no
difficult aspects to Saturn, he doesnt want to work and thinks that others should do everything for him.
The people around me who are rewarded by the society are people who for example work with developing the future society
with surveillance and
the internet of things, people who have high positions at big unethical companies that are using slaves while
ruining our earth with toxins, influencers who make the young feel even more pressured to have material status
and beauty and people who are part of the process in which rentals become more and more expensive.
People who take what I see as REAL RESPONSABILITY for their own and other people´s lives by for example standing up against corruption will end up with
serious problems instead of getting rewarded.
People believe that Saturn wakes us up from for example a neptunian fog so that we can see reality and what has to be done. I have
read that Saturn represents the 3D-reality, the matrix we live in. In order to wake up, we obviously need to be able to see the matrix, but it does not end there. After that we need to break free from the matrix and live according to the real
reality of our inner authentic truth. Uranus/Aquarius is about waking up to the fact that human beings need to be united
in peace and love, we need to be free and not be controlled slaves and we need to cooperate for a better future instead of continuing on our narcissistic and destructive path.
Saturn is to me about working to overcome fears, insecurities and negative beliefs about ourselves. The matrix is like a prison for our minds.
We evolve immensely by trying to
break free from the slavery and by overcoming our fears and our programming so in that way Saturn is helping us to grow and become stronger and wiser. I am not against Saturn, I am
against the belief that Saturn is about working hard for a sick system and that people who fail to do well in this society must be bad at
"learning the saturnian lessons"
I have seen different info about what represents governments in astrology and I am confused about which info is correct.
Saturn is not going away, but whatever it represents, it can be transformed.
Astrologers claim that Saturn is about working hard, being patient and then being rewarded. But many people
work hard without getting any rewards.
Powerful people have always wanted the lower classes to "work hard". Religious people have motivated people
by telling them to work hard and do as they told, they will then be rewarded in the afterlife. If they
don´t do as they are told, they will burn in hell for the rest of eternity. It has been an effective way of
creating slaves. Nowadays in the western society the powerful have created a new "religion" which is materialism,
since people stopped believing in the old ideas. I believe that astrology has also been infiltrated with
this idea that we have to "work hard" and patiently await rewards. If we don´t get rewarded we should be humble
and thankful that we are at least alive and realize that it is our own fault for not learning
the "saturnian lessons". Meanwhile the rich are getting richer
I know that many people in the western society are only able to focus on surviving, some are even homeless.
However, the fixation on status affects them as well. Homeless people are treated as if they were contaminated
by the plague and people kick them and pee on them while the rich and the famous are treated like royalty when they move around in our socities.
Regarding Sweden, it is very influenced by Neptune. People believe that our country is what it was in the 70s but that
is far from the truth. Our welfare system is an illusion. I am certainly not naive about the world, I feel as if I don´t know how to exist in this world because the suffering among humans affects me so badly.
I am very affected by Saturn and I have always taken to much responsability, given to much and worked to hard due
to fears, insecurities and a feeling of being beneath other people. The harder I work to prove my worth, the less respect I get from
other people and the more they will use me. By breaking free from fears and insecurities I have managed to be more authentic,
take less responsability for
other people and feel more worthy
of respect and appreciation. That has led to me having really great friends who appreciate me for who I am
and I have a partner who sees me as an angel. I still work so hard at jobs that
I develop health issues though. The solution for that problem is not to work harder, it is to be more self loving.
I see more people than me with these types of saturnian issues.
I know one person who has Saturn on the Dsc and no
difficult aspects to Saturn, he doesnt want to work and thinks that others should do everything for him.
The people around me who are rewarded by the society are people who for example work with developing the future society
with surveillance and
the internet of things, people who have high positions at big unethical companies that are using slaves while
ruining our earth with toxins, influencers who make the young feel even more pressured to have material status
and beauty and people who are part of the process in which rentals become more and more expensive.
People who take what I see as REAL RESPONSABILITY for their own and other people´s lives by for example standing up against corruption will end up with
serious problems instead of getting rewarded.
People believe that Saturn wakes us up from for example a neptunian fog so that we can see reality and what has to be done. I have
read that Saturn represents the 3D-reality, the matrix we live in. In order to wake up, we obviously need to be able to see the matrix, but it does not end there. After that we need to break free from the matrix and live according to the real
reality of our inner authentic truth. Uranus/Aquarius is about waking up to the fact that human beings need to be united
in peace and love, we need to be free and not be controlled slaves and we need to cooperate for a better future instead of continuing on our narcissistic and destructive path.
Saturn is to me about working to overcome fears, insecurities and negative beliefs about ourselves. The matrix is like a prison for our minds.
We evolve immensely by trying to
break free from the slavery and by overcoming our fears and our programming so in that way Saturn is helping us to grow and become stronger and wiser. I am not against Saturn, I am
against the belief that Saturn is about working hard for a sick system and that people who fail to do well in this society must be bad at
"learning the saturnian lessons"
waybread
Well-known member
I just don't believe that Saturn is up in the sky to make people's lives miserable.
Politically I am fairly liberal, but I also have a strong pragmatic streak.
Powerful people usually work very hard, as well. That's how they became powerful.
I live in Canada. I don't think either of us lives in a country where religion still has much control over people. Religion isn't Saturn, anyway. It's a 9th house matter.
Maybe you've got a better solution for elevating the status of poor people than has been tried to date. Blaming Saturn for social hierarchies isn't going to change them.
There are horoscope placements involving Saturn that can lead to insecurities and self-doubt. Saturn square the sun or moon, Saturn involved with Chiron come to mind.
I have natal Saturn opposite sun . It is wide, but the orb is getting closer by progression. I think it works best to view a planet opposite one's sun as one's teacher.
There are actual enslaved people on the planet today. But most hard-working low-wage earners are not slaves.
Saturn doesn't say to ignore or abandon one's inner truth. Just that if one has that sense of an inner truth, there are better vs. worse ways of pursuing it. Otherwise it just remains a pleasant dream.
If you wish to change "the system" as you construe it, I hope you are organizing with a large group of like-minded people.
Politically I am fairly liberal, but I also have a strong pragmatic streak.
Powerful people usually work very hard, as well. That's how they became powerful.
I live in Canada. I don't think either of us lives in a country where religion still has much control over people. Religion isn't Saturn, anyway. It's a 9th house matter.
Maybe you've got a better solution for elevating the status of poor people than has been tried to date. Blaming Saturn for social hierarchies isn't going to change them.
There are horoscope placements involving Saturn that can lead to insecurities and self-doubt. Saturn square the sun or moon, Saturn involved with Chiron come to mind.
I have natal Saturn opposite sun . It is wide, but the orb is getting closer by progression. I think it works best to view a planet opposite one's sun as one's teacher.
There are actual enslaved people on the planet today. But most hard-working low-wage earners are not slaves.
Saturn doesn't say to ignore or abandon one's inner truth. Just that if one has that sense of an inner truth, there are better vs. worse ways of pursuing it. Otherwise it just remains a pleasant dream.
If you wish to change "the system" as you construe it, I hope you are organizing with a large group of like-minded people.
david starling
Well-known member
Waybread, in your opinion ARE the planets themselves, as physical objects, "making" us do things, feel things, think and believe things?
Or, is it about synchronicity and noticeable correlations? You know the saying: "Correlation isn't necessarily Causation".
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
I quote when you said:
the rain is - arguably - "making" us bring an umbrella
similarly planet SATURN
.