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  #1  
Unread 01-05-2012, 02:36 AM
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Question ok , its weird but,

can an inclination for cross dressing be in a chart?
I have a straight male friend who is really a blast. He does not act gay, or homosexual or fem at all but he loves make up and cross dressing! He was compelled with a fascination towards make-up and ladies things since childhood and has kept it a secret his entire life (with the exception of his ex wife who was tolerant but not thrilled). He's 51 & I am the first person he has been open with about it. I think its hysterical and fun , I actually kind of like it because hes over 6'3" wears a 15 shoe and looks like a viking! Its also his personality with mine that makes it fun. Any way, in looking at his chart I'm trying to see it but having a hard time.
Perhaps its sun in the 2nd sq mars in the 10th??
Someone help please?
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Last edited by rubyelixir; 01-05-2012 at 05:53 AM. Reason: redo chart
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Unread 01-05-2012, 04:29 AM
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GLAMGIRL and the LIBRAN T-SQAURE

Dear Rubyelixir,
That Leonine 12th house with a trined Uranus to Jupiter in 4th Sagittarius = Futuristic Drama Queen! Break out the glitter, lucite platforms, green eyelashes and silver Barbarella wig! The Saturn in the 5th has tempered this wild child and created a 4th house closet case--poor thing! Recall that the 12th is the house of "hiding" as well as visual creativity. The 4th house is also a quiet, somewhat introverted house, especially when the moon is there driving the persona toward an "interior" life, (The moon = need) and in its own house no less. Jupier, Uranus and La Luna are subordinate to the T-square--*see below. You are correct to note the 2nd house solar square to Mars 10, *but the real dealio is that it is also in a loose T-sq to Saturn 5th which I have found suggests good ole-fashioned "repression". Ultimately, the Libran sun is dampened by this aspect.
Bring your starlet Fred to a Burlesque show out on South Beach (That Saturn 5th will groove on the 1950s camp) and have some Fab Fun! Be a good astro-friend here and help that stodgy Saturn 5th have some fun. (A professional makeover would be a nice gift. Fred could learn some tips and tricks)
*An interest in corsets and brassieres is indicated plus a love of lipstick. If we look further we see that Fred may also harbor a desire to PERFORM since the MC is Venus ruled (cusping Gemini) which disposits to the third house where both Venus and Neptune preside. You Go Girlfriend!

PS: Some would also remark on Chiron in loose opposition to Uranus 12 especially as it is near the descendent (6th house at 28' 57"--a further tension limiting the 7th house (Libran) cusp energy from full engagement with a "public" meeting.

Remember, Librans love jewelry too! Rhinstoned hosiery should make those Miami nights twinkle for Fred

Thank You For Sharing
Science of Self
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Unread 01-05-2012, 04:34 AM
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Re: GLAMGIRL and the LIBRAN T-SQAURE

Unless this person has given you permission to post his name on his chart, you should take this one down and repost a chart without his name on it.
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Unread 01-05-2012, 04:54 AM
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Re: ok , its weird but,

Dear Waybread,
I would direct the message and request to Rubyelixir. I happen to agree with your sentiments since the profile is somewhat personal. I noticed the name only after I wrote up the chart request since it is in very small type.
Thank you
Science of Self

*Rubyelixer posted the astro-chart in the original thread.

Last edited by scienceofself; 01-05-2012 at 05:20 AM. Reason: additional data
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Unread 01-05-2012, 05:07 AM
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GlamGIRL and the LIBRAN T-SQAURE

Rubyelexir,
Please note that there is a Pluto Sq from the ASC to the Moon in the 4th too.
Much has been written on this aspect but as it relates to this chart one has to recall angular wisdom: One must pass through the demands of the IC to open the 5th house energies. In this chart the IC is stressed by the Plutonic sqaure driving the lunar needs deeper "underground."
...and with Saturn in the Fifth in the next house (In the above mentioned T-sq aspect) this individual is truly under restrictive duress. Nothing short of a full unleashing of the Uranian power in the 12th will feel, ultimately, fulfilling.

Pluto on the ASC is also corroborated with meeting powerful and or famous individuals.

Sidereally,
Scienceofself
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Unread 01-05-2012, 05:37 AM
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Angry Re: GLAMGIRL and the LIBRAN T-SQAURE

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Unless this person has given you permission to post his name on his chart, you should take this one down and repost a chart without his name on it.
absolutely ! im an idiot thanks for reminding me
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Unread 01-05-2012, 10:26 AM
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Re: ok , its weird but,

Hi Rubyelixir. Its possible that Moon square Pluto is very relevant. Often men who dress in women's clothes and make-up are trying to compensate for an early sense of deprivation in their relationship with their mother. Moon square Pluto suggests that the need for nurture was felt very intensely, and therefore that the mother was felt as having the power to destroy by either withdrawing or by engulfing the child. He would probably have been sensitive to his mother's resentments and struggles, so he may be trying to understand how she felt in order to make sense of his own feelings and emotional needs.

Since the Ascendant is conjunct Pluto (even if birth time is out by 15 minutes or so) any compulsions arising from such a lack would seek visible embodiment in the world, so this could have inspired him to actually adopt a female mask. Pluto's tendency to bring that which is taboo to the surface is a collective force for change - he is in a sense a mouthpiece for the transvestite elements of the collective shadow, all be it in a very quiet way.

As has been pointed out, there are suggestions of dramatic tendencies with the Sagittarius emphasis and the Jupiter Uranus aspects.

Also Libra has a tendency to seek the opposite in order to find a balance and define its values. The Libran Mercury (Mercury was a rather androgynous figure in myth, who fathered Hermaphrodite) is making close aspects to Jupiter and Uranus.

The very strong Libran emphasis also includes Venus, which is concerned with adornment and sensuality. Its T-square with Uranus and Chiron could also say a lot about why your friend cross dresses. Uranus in the 12th suggests that progressive and eccentric expression was perhaps considered a no-no and that this could have been the case for several generations. The square to Venus perhaps reflects that the Uranian archetype that had been suppressed by his immediate ancestry forced its way into his life through his Venus.

The Chiron Venus square suggests a wound to his self-worth which again could be linked to his early relationship with his mother. Perhaps she could not express her femininity fully because she did not love herself, or perhaps she over-compensated. Either way there is a suggestion in the chart that possibly your friend's capacity for self-love has been wounded, and he may feel more beautiful and worthwhile when cross dressing.

I think you're right that the Sun Mars square feeds into this too. It often denotes a reluctance to embrace the aggressive urges as one's own. Sun in Libra is particularly averse to what it may see as the vulgarity of overt martial expression. Cross dressing may offer relief from this tension by dissociating from Mars for a while.

There's no doubt more that I've missed, and much of what I've written is speculative, but it some of it may strike a chord.
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Unread 01-05-2012, 02:06 PM
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Thumbs up Re: GLAMGIRL and the LIBRAN T-SQAURE

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
Dear Rubyelixir,
That Leonine 12th house with a trined Uranus to Jupiter in 4th Sagittarius = Futuristic Drama Queen! Break out the glitter, lucite platforms, green eyelashes and silver Barbarella wig! The Saturn in the 5th has tempered this wild child and created a 4th house closet case--poor thing! Recall that the 12th is the house of "hiding" as well as visual creativity. The 4th house is also a quiet, somewhat introverted house, especially when the moon is there driving the persona toward an "interior" life, (The moon = need) and in its own house no less. Jupier, Uranus and La Luna are subordinate to the T-square--*see below. You are correct to note the 2nd house solar square to Mars 10, *but the real dealio is that it is also in a loose T-sq to Saturn 5th which I have found suggests good ole-fashioned "repression". Ultimately, the Libran sun is dampened by this aspect.
Bring your starlet Fred to a Burlesque show out on South Beach (That Saturn 5th will groove on the 1950s camp) and have some Fab Fun! Be a good astro-friend here and help that stodgy Saturn 5th have some fun. (A professional makeover would be a nice gift. Fred could learn some tips and tricks)
*An interest in corsets and brassieres is indicated plus a love of lipstick. If we look further we see that Fred may also harbor a desire to PERFORM since the MC is Venus ruled (cusping Gemini) which disposits to the third house where both Venus and Neptune preside. You Go Girlfriend!

PS: Some would also remark on Chiron in loose opposition to Uranus 12 especially as it is near the descendent (6th house at 28' 57"--a further tension limiting the 7th house (Libran) cusp energy from full engagement with a "public" meeting.

Remember, Librans love jewelry too! Rhinstoned hosiery should make those Miami nights twinkle for Fred

Thank You For Sharing
Science of Self

SOS You ROCK!!!!! Ty for that EXCELLENT interp and a new member eh? Well WELCOME!!! I have to say that my FRIEND would absolutely love the wig platforms etc and yes I told him tht i was going to bring him to Sephora and tell them he lost a bet so go wild! He practically orgasmed over that idea! LOL!!! yes on the drag show too !

BUT the strangest part is : ME !!!(I included my chart for a looksee) I have so much saturn my pee has rings! 5 planets in cap! including saturn ! but my stellium is tinted by, thankfully, venus colored glasses, and ruled by sag on the cusp of the 4th. I give him the levity with a taste of fun, creative and positive capricorn/saturn energy (my 5th has saturn and jup) so bravo SoS and Thank You!
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Unread 01-05-2012, 04:02 PM
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Re: ok , its weird but,

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi Rubyelixir. Its possible that Moon square Pluto is very relevant. Often men who dress in women's clothes and make-up are trying to compensate for an early sense of deprivation in their relationship with their mother. Moon square Pluto suggests that the need for nurture was felt very intensely, and therefore that the mother was felt as having the power to destroy by either withdrawing or by engulfing the child. He would probably have been sensitive to his mother's resentments and struggles, so he may be trying to understand how she felt in order to make sense of his own feelings and emotional needs.


There's no doubt more that I've missed, and much of what I've written is speculative, but it some of it may strike a chord.
miquar- ALL Astrology is "speculative" or rather up to the interpreter.

You've made some pretty good points ! He was married to a former Playboy bunny for almost 15 years, was desperately heartbroken over the divorce but it turns out she's practically losing her mind & he said she looks awful and used to be the best mother (they have 2 teenage boys) but now she's the worst causing the boys to move out on her and in with him. So perhaps the misplaced ideas about the feminine are correct. He speaks highly of his mother but I dont know enough to be sure. I suggested that he might not have been realistic about his wife but he swears that everything was great until the end.I'm not sure what the details are but I do know that love is blind.I would have to get to know him better to get to the bottom of his psyche on these things.
Yet, along with the "fun" we have, and very open conversations, they are steeped in a liberating reality. Not heavy at all. So I guess that uranian thang is feeling some freedom. He says I scare the poop outta him. I can tell I do but I have given him a kind of "permission" to let it all hang out, so no longer constipated, (ew , bad analogy but works) or rather now that the cats' outta the bag, he's interested in exploring this side of himself more openly yet its only with me , for now.
For my part, I enjoy watching it unfold and being the catalyst. He is so much fun and we laugh alot! I can't wait to push him more and more lol!
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Unread 01-06-2012, 03:55 AM
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Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Miquar,
In reference to what you wrote:

"The Chiron Venus square suggests a wound to his self-worth which again could be linked to his early relationship with his mother."

There is no square aspect here.

It's a very tight trine (Venus 28deg56' to Chiron 28deg14'). Perhaps you want to to revisit the idea of its "wounding"? While trines are not exclusively positive this trine is not negative either. In fact, if we look closely we see a GRAND TRINE which includes Mars! Our primary concern of the radix in relation to Rubyelixir's question is contained in the Saturn T-SQ containing BOTH malefics bearing down upon the Sun in the "self worth" second Libran house coupled with the 4th house Moon squaring Pluto (!).

Once the Uranian energy has been siezed in the chart (which is occurring) this individual will be accessing another dynamic of the chart: true healing and an engagement with a whole sense of personhood...he may make some money if "she" is smart too...

Sing along now: "These Uranian boots are made for walkin and that's what they are gunna do..."

Rubyelixir, Thank you for the Astro-welcome and the kudos. I will be peeking at your self described oh-so-Saturnine chart in all its ringy glory shortly.

Sidereally,
Scienceofself

Last edited by scienceofself; 01-24-2012 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Name error: "Miquar" not "Miqual"--Thanks
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Unread 01-06-2012, 06:11 AM
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Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Hi Scienceofself. Yes thanks for that, my mistake. I do think though that any tight aspect between Venus and Chiron can reflect a wounding to self-worth.

Looking at a database of violent criminals, and selecting those who were likely psychopaths on account of their seeming lack of remorse, Liz Greene found that a staggering 30% had Moon trine Chiron. A much smaller proportion had the square. Because the trine does not produce the same tension, there is less potential to become conscious of any difficult issues reflected by the aspect, and so the effects can be more damaging than with the square in some cases.

I don't use orbs over 8 degrees, so I don't count the T-square you mentioned. The Mars Saturn orb is nearly ten degrees. If the Sun was on the Saturn/Mars midpoint, (or Saturn=Sun/Mars or Mars=Sun Saturn) then I would be more generous in this respect, but in this case I only counted the Sun Mars square. It would be interesting to know, however, if anything happened when Sun and Mars progressed to exact aspects with Saturn. Using solar arc directions the two would occur well within a year of one another.
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Unread 01-06-2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

[QUOTE=scienceofself;351091]Miquar,
In reference to what you wrote:

"The Chiron Venus square suggests a wound to his self-worth which again could be linked to his early relationship with his mother."

It's a very tight trine (Venus 28deg56' to Chiron 28deg14'). Perhaps you want to to revisit the idea of its "wounding"?

He swears up and down that his mom is super mom and not very glam and yes i would think so since his moon sextiles his sun (not sure why the chart does show this aspect?) & is in sag "santa momma", But his aunt however (venus in the 3rd conj neptune?) would take him from time to time and she was a fashion plate who sometimes had to leave him alone when she worked which he claims, at the age of 12, was like having Disneyworld to himself!

lilith hanging out on her own in cancer and not malefic and being alone in the 11th might just make that inner "bad gurl" secretive unless around "her" own kind?

Sing along now: "These Uranian boots are made for walkin and that's what they are gunna do..."
you're funny SOS but also very perceptive! He LOVES walking and takes very long walks to think and calls me sometimes like tonite(i didnt know about the walks until tonight)!

"Rubyelixir, Thank you for the Astro-welcome and the kudos. I will be peeking at your self described oh-so-Saturnine chart in all its ringy glory shortly."

careful u might need an umbrella-dont get wet!
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Unread 01-06-2012, 09:42 PM
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Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Hi Rubyelixir. Thanks for all the feedback. I can't think of anything else to add, but I can't let go of the idea that your friend's cross dressing is connected with Venus Chiron, and the Moon Pluto. Perhaps he was living out something she was afraid to. I don't know - my psychoanalytical knowledge is pretty sparse.
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Unread 01-07-2012, 01:52 AM
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Uranian thread

There are three kinds of lies: Lies, dam* lies and statistics.
--Benjamin Disraeli

Miquar, you have shared quite a bit actually. A question: since when is cross dressing considered a symptom of "violent criminals" or murderous psychopathy? Why have you included violent criminality in your reply? Are you just loosely speaking your mind aloud? The moon is not in aspect to Chiron in this chart. What you have done in an effort to highlight Chiron (?) and an aspect (while bolstering the cred of your reply with Green's name) is unwittingly associated this cross dressing individual with violent criminals! Give Fab Fred a break or at least sensitivity.

I have Green's book and appreciate it. This reply cannot contain my thoughts on statistics and various methodology biases e.g., belief, confirmation biases to name two, but suffice to say that statistics bring with it a critical double edged sword leading to its own mercurial misery--If you could, just ask deceased Michel Gauquelin. Interestingly, the Gauquelins wrote the following sentence in their book "Birth Times" (pg 131): "To put it crudely, the signs of the zodiac are useless...a horoscope without the zodiac is surely like a day without the sun." Additionally, given that the moon's orbital speed is so swift compared to the other astrological bodies there are inherent statistical problems when including it in any distributive data, i.e., of course its going to make aspects. A second idea is that one would have to include a very large cross sampling of the population to give any true statistical weight to the data.

I include this, since, when I am looking over charts many thoughts pass through my mind along with ancient admonitions from the likes of Firmicus Maternus: " In drawing up a chart, do not show up the bad things about men too clearly...delay your responses with a certain reticence..."

Let's have a chat. The individual here (Fred) is observing the POWER AND STRENGTH of all things FEMALE. It is NOT a liability. He has benefited from woman not only through his family and marriage (A Playboy Bunny! He could have done worse.) but also through his ANCESTORS--and I'm not talking evolutionary astrology either--more on that later. Since we are now author name dropping, I will submit Camille Paglia's for inclusion--read Sexual Personae for starters. Is Fred's identification with some things female an illness? I submit NO. I really don't see him suffering from proximity to woman either-- his family, his mother and again his wife. He produced two children and from what we are hearing it was a more positive marriage than not. His "anxiety" is not extending from other females. The strategy to deal with his internal lunar/Pluto ideation is shored up in his PERSONIFICATION of females--glamorous females. I think he LOVES beautiful woman and the euphoria and freedom which he derives from this personification (as reflected in the 12 house Uranus trine Jupiter 4th)
I think he NEEDS them.

If there is any anxiety it is relieved with the Uranian influence as i wrote earlier. But, let's get this right, I submit he is REFLECTING HIS OWN FEMALE FROM WITHIN HIMSELF AND IMAGES OF DOMINANT BEAUTIES OF THE CULTURE AT LARGE rather than any "wounding". (But ill take a Lacanian sense of inverted "lack") The grand trine includes Venus 3, Mars 10 and Chiron 6th near the DC! --HELLO! He is a friend of females.

His overall chart is the Uranian version of super dress-up, emotional play time and the chart expresses that preoccupation through the lifelong 4th/12th planets and aspects. What Fab Fred's chart shows is an element of Transvestic fetishism and possible trangendering, since I believe it's within his biology as well and obviously not just in the 2-D chart and or stemming from "culture" exclusively (Not a popular position among social scientist who promote "Blank Slate" cultural hegemony). He will probably continue to feel great by acting out--"BEING OUT". Buddhism can wait too! The DSM needs to be updated in this regard...is not Lady Liberty of Statue of Liberty fame not a bit draggy too or at least a supra-female? Coursing through all of earth's history --especially western history--is a latent transgendering and transvestism. Why? because its always been there. It's a part of our biology. Blended together and taken as a whole, the sexual and gender differences yield shades of gray not black and white. That goes for both Queens and Kings.

Very few of us reflect absolute masculine or feminine genetic qualities. Lets face it, it's impossible since we come from a male and female but we honor these poles of difference in our culture nonetheless as the feminine and masculine principles embody the prime dictum of our human culture: mate. It is through the embodiment of this oppositional force that several forms of selective pressure are maintained, one of which is dominance, and that includes female dominance in all its forms (make no mistake there is a mutability to this gene encoding). But, let's get real. Nature, in all its wisdom doesn't really care if you are either Raquel Welch or Charlton Heston. Nature allows many variations on the theme of "Human" to "get it on" (and not just for reproductive reasons and the health of the species but culture itself benefits too. One could muse that culture itself is a biological entity of sorts)--it's in the best interest of our species' survival to mix it up, which again, creates healthy individuals and culture. (Books of interest: Sex At Dawn by Ryan & Jetha, Genome by M. Ridley, Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine) Curiously, a Uranian individual in the 19th century was one who courted ideas of personal "otherness"--transsexual, transgendered, transvestic etc.

The close relationship between what we deem positive and negative traits --even *medically described-- as in the case of certain diseases cannot be highlighted more. (*Diabetes is now understood to be an adaptive trait to cold climates and varying food resources, which unfortunately doesn't jive well with our easily had, carbo-loaded lives....but for Pleistocene individuals above roughly 40 degrees north latitude the adaptation that allowed survival sure was necessary. Passing thought: Has anyone considered that Nature itself is a cross-dressing tranny witch playing for keeps?

Again, let's get real about what we are--which is both male and female (Miquar, you yourself use the Taiggi [yin/yang] symbol as your personal aegis for your entries in this astro-community with a Sun and Moon blended upon it no less!)

So lets talk about the chart and orbs. Why did I "see" in the chart what is being reflected in Fred's life? (Btw, that is the 12th house we are talking about with Uranus which highlights feet, walking and my Nancy Sinatra tune. Does Fred also enjoy an innocent love of feet--foot fetish, nice shoes? Ditto for females being friends of Fred (Venus, Neptune 3rd) as well as the famous playboy wife (Oriental Pluto conj ASC).

I have found many with IC or 4th house/12th house placements to be walkers. It's a dreamy, low-key way to escape which is mostly close to home.
Since much of my practice is dedicated to being in front of live clients and their charts PLUS reference to a very healthy library on the subject, including historical charts, I have found --like most decent astrologers-- that each chart has its own integrity. The question of orbs is a common one. I am generally known for using the smallest orbs possible. I am also known to be flexible in this regard as it pertains to the chart's integrity.

The above chart is a perfect example. The promittor Saturn is in its own sign of Capricorn in the fifth house, dignified by sign but opposite by house position (since Capricorn rules the 10th and this is in the 5th) which renders it more than noteworthy --a type of house detriment. Meanwhile, since Mars, as it applies in the direction of the MC is in the last decan of the tenth OPPOSITE its home house of the fifth which renders the aspect (Sun T-SQ Saturn and Mars) as a whole, a type of negative mutual reception thus the wide orb is included. OK? Why would I do this? Because I happen to believe that HOUSE is prime over sign. Whenever I see the two malefics in concert in this manner, I will take into account their proximity to the planet in question, which is in this case the Sun (more reception-like influence as the fifth is the house of the Sun). So, when I originally wrote "loosely in T-SQ aspect" there was acknowledgement of the orb's width and its influence. Also, the website, Astrodienst, used for the chart also noted it with its triangulated red lines denoting a T-SQ.

Is there more? Yes. Both signs of Virgo and Cancer are of "long ascension" due to the obliquity of the ecliptic in the Northern hemisphere. (*there are more signs than these two termed "long" but it's worth noting for people's general interest that they are reversed in the southern hemisphere). So, I look at the ascendant and question activity and house structure. Whenever I see something like 4:30AM sharp or any other near perfect rounded number I take a second look since hospitals are known to record as much as 15 minutes late. (I take a third look when I see Pluto, Uranus and North node too hovering around the ASC but for other reasons) In short, I look at general things and specific things (e.g., Uranus in detriment in Leo).

In the general, If we simply look at the chart in its most basic way, independent of house, sign or degree system, we easily see that Mars is opposite Saturn with Earth "between" them, while the Sun is approximately 90 degrees to both. Even without degrees we have these two astronomical bodies -- at astronomical distances from one another in space-- at roughly 90 degree angles to the Sun. If there is any "cosmobiological" effect it is surely seen in this rough aspect as it has been spoken and written about for most of human recorded history. So, I take note.

In the specific, Pluto is Oriental with NNode following, rendering it as extremely important to the chart

...and, a Mercury ruled Virgo ASC and a Mercury ruled MC,...sure, "communication" as we know, but as it relates to the chart question i.e., markers for crossdressing as double dealing androgyne Hermes is all over the place. (I also wonder about their marriage? Was it one of sibling-like familiarity? I think so...or even, at times, ever-so-softly lesbian-like? This also suggests why the 6th house Chiron in the grand trine with third house Venus and Mars is NOT wounding--can you say "talk therapy", communication?

...and with the second house Mercury and Sun PLUS the Uranian 12th trine to Jupiter AND the 5th house Saturn we have a late life singer/Performer. I bet "Frederique" has a nice voice too and can sing. I further wonder if he could also write a book on the subject $$$?)

Fred, please enjoy your fabulous fifties.

"There are in Astrologie, I confess, shallow brooks, through which young tyroes may wade; but withal there are deep fords, over which the giants themselves must swim."

--Elias Ashmole

Sidereally,
Scienceofself

*Note: Scienceofself's Jupiter is in Gemini ; )

Yes, Miquar, clearly solar arc Mars would be making an aspect given its orbital speed eventually...in the future. However, given its daily movement, a tighter square with Saturn was in the making around October 4th 1960 --a week and a day later. This DAILY movement is of immediate interest rather than solar arcs. The concern is natal not solar arcs or secondary progressions.

Last edited by scienceofself; 01-24-2012 at 06:56 AM.
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Unread 01-07-2012, 05:55 AM
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Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
"It would be interesting to know, however, if anything happened when Sun and Mars progressed to exact aspects with Saturn. Using solar arc directions the two would occur well within a year of one another.
coming up ? or already pAssed? i havent studied too much about progressions given my background in astrology was classical and jungian
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Unread 01-07-2012, 06:33 AM
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Wink Re: ok , its weird but,

What's with the many Leonine qualities of several men born under the sign of Leo...labelled to boost "dramatic" personalities? I thought Capricorns and Aquarius (the opposite sign of Leo), including Pisces has men in touch with their feminine side. I observed this phenomenon with Virgos, Geminis and Cancers: must be the Mercurian influence or in Cancer's case the Lunar influence but I sense Virgo (and Capricorn the moon appears "weak") has a lunar exaltation. Leo men and Virgos too are chivalrous and least to be shy on a date, as they're not afraid to show the right emotion in a romantic engagement.

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Unread 01-07-2012, 06:36 AM
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Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Hi rubyelixir. It would have been during childhood, around 8 and a half to 9 years old for the progressed Sun aspecting natal Saturn, with Mars aspecting Saturn by Solar Arc at around 9. The aspect of progressed Mars was probably much later (Solar arc progression involves moving all points at the same rate as progressed Sun, whereas secondary progressions are the 'day for a year' progressions).

I may unsubscribe from this thread at some point for reasons that will be clear from my next post, but you can always private message me if you like.
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Unread 01-07-2012, 06:42 AM
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Re: ok , its weird but,

Hi Scienceoflife. I didn't get very far through your last post as I found it very condescending. I wonder why you couldn't express yourself without trying to put me down?

I used the psychopath thing as an example of how a trine to Chiron can involve an experience of wounding, since it is the lack of lunar empathy that largely defines the psychopathic personality. I was in no way trying to make a connection between psychopathy and cross-dressing, and I apologise to rubyelixir and her friend if this wasn't obvious.

Though it would be quite legitimate to refer to the work of one of the most respected living astrologers in making a point, I only used the Greene example because of its relevance to Chiron trines.
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Unread 01-07-2012, 04:24 PM
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Wink Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Quote:
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I may unsubscribe from this thread at some point for reasons that will be clear from my next post, but you can always private message me if you like.
Please dont Miquar! SOS, being a new member, a professional astrologer & ESP & Most importantly , a NEW YAWKER- isn't yet familiar with what might be construed as offensive here. New Yorkers are competitive and ALWAYS under fire. Every day is a confrontation there so they are automatically in battle mode- I know I was one ;o) Just look at it as constructive criticism.New Yorkers are blunt & tuff because of the turf in which they reside, it goes with the territory. You gotta be quick, sharp, and fast to make it in NY so please try not to take offense too easily. the best approach is a reply with confidence not to run away. Even if its something you are unsure of or mistaken, owning it is best. Making it humorous is even better! Perhaps in the future you could be a bit clearer on why you make such a chilling analogy. After all , my friend is NOT a killer or criminal and making that kind of reference assumes his situation is a negative. I understood it, but it did seem kinda harsh and far fetched in the way you put it.
Not everyone is at the same level of Astrology here & we are ALL learning, heck I've been at it for 30 years now & I still feel like a novice!
So please realize that all comments are contributing to our growth as astrologers
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Unread 01-07-2012, 04:26 PM
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Re: ok , its weird but,

BTW Miquar, I really like your quote , take it to heart in this situation ;o)
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Unread 01-07-2012, 04:57 PM
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Talking Re: Uranian thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
There are three kinds of lies: Lies, dam* lies and statistics.
--Benjamin Disraeli
AGREED

Poor miquar was blindsided by that New York Cabbie reply technique =oP


Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
"The strategy to deal with his internal lunar/Pluto ideation is shored up in his PERSONIFICATION of females--glamorous females. I think he LOVES beautiful woman and the euphoria and freedom which he derives from this personification (as reflected in the 12 house Uranus trine Jupiter 4th)
I think he NEEDS them."
- RIGHT ON!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
"If there is any anxiety it is relieved with the Uranian influence as i wrote earlier. But, let's get this right, I submit he is REFLECTING HIS OWN FEMALE FROM WITHIN HIMSELF AND IMAGES OF DOMINANT BEAUTIES OF THE CULTURE AT LARGE rather than any "wounding". (But ill take a Lacanian sense of inverted "lack") The grand trine includes Venus 3, Mars 10 and Chiron 6th near the DC! --HELLO! He is a friend of females. "
- PRECISELY!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
" (Books of interest: Sex At Dawn by Ryan & Jetha, Genome by M. Ridley, Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine)"
- I MIGHT NEED TO CHECK THESE OUT ;o)


Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
Does Fred also enjoy an innocent love of feet--foot fetish, nice shoes? Ditto for females being friends of Fred (Venus, Neptune 3rd) as well as the famous playboy wife (Oriental Pluto conj ASC).
- OMG!!!!!!!!!!! Im not even going to explain y I said OMG , I think u know



Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
"The promittor Saturn is in its own sign of Capricorn in the fifth house, dignified by sign but opposite by house position (since Capricorn rules the 10th and this is in the 5th) which renders it more than noteworthy --a type of house detriment."
= I DONT KNOW WHAT A PROMITTOR IS BUT I THINK I MAY BE THE "PERMITTER" in that my sun is 11 degrees CAP EXACTLY riding on his Saturn (yeah he can be my lil slut & he LOVES it LOL!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
" Whenever I see something like 4:30AM sharp or any other near perfect rounded number I take a second look since hospitals are known to record as much as 15 minutes late."
= Very Perceptive! He is "not sure " of the time but thinks its around 4:30 am(btw my son WAS born at EXACTLY 8 pm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
" (I also wonder about their marriage? Was it one of sibling-like familiarity? I think so...or even, at times, ever-so-softly lesbian-like? "
- GEEZ MAN! He IS A LESBO!!!! & the first to admit it too!!!! He told me he was a bartender at the PB club & when he saw her acress the room the first thing he saw was her bright red shiny lipstick & said to himself "now THAT i'm going to marry!!!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
"This also suggests why the 6th house Chiron in the grand trine with third house Venus and Mars is NOT wounding--can you say "talk therapy", communication?"
we can talk for hours and he always says THANK YOU like I performed some kind of healing on him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
...and with the second house Mercury and Sun PLUS the Uranian 12th trine to Jupiter AND the 5th house Saturn we have a late life singer/Performer. I bet "Frederique" has a nice voice too and can sing. I further wonder if he could also write a book on the subject $$$?)
- FIRST NEGATIVE SOS No on the voice, and its all too new to him seeing it is that he is only just now coming "Out" and only to me. LOL I call him "My ***** & Fredrikka" which he LOVES!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
*Note: Scienceofself's Jupiter is in Gemini ; )
do u xdress? =oD

Last edited by rubyelixir; 01-07-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 01:14 AM
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Talking Re: Some notes on uranian glamgirl

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubyelixir View Post
Please dont Miquar! SOS, being a new member, a professional astrologer & ESP & Most importantly , a NEW YAWKER- isn't yet familiar with what might be construed as offensive here. New Yorkers are competitive and ALWAYS under fire. Every day is a confrontation there so they are automatically in battle mode- I know I was one ;o) Just look at it as constructive criticism.New Yorkers are blunt & tuff because of the turf in which they reside, it goes with the territory. You gotta be quick, sharp, and fast to make it in NY so please try not to take offense too easily. the best approach is a reply with confidence not to run away. Even if its something you are unsure of or mistaken, owning it is best. Making it humorous is even better! Perhaps in the future you could be a bit clearer on why you make such a chilling analogy. After all , my friend is NOT a killer or criminal and making that kind of reference assumes his situation is a negative. I understood it, but it did seem kinda harsh and far fetched in the way you put it.
Not everyone is at the same level of Astrology here & we are ALL learning, heck I've been at it for 30 years now & I still feel like a novice!
So please realize that all comments are contributing to our growth as astrologers

New Yorkers are busy, rushed, don't take **** from others, very independent, appear to be rude and always dealing with people in a crowded place of 8 million other residents around them.

I happen to be Californian, southern half, from the desert or Inland Empire. The land of suburbanites, gangsta rap video set ghettos, long distance commuters, yuppies, the retirees, more conservative seniors, more liberal baby-boomers, valley girls, surfer boys, new age thinking and born-again Christian megachurches.

Stereotypes: we all have them about ourselves and each other. The real problem is whether or not we believe them. Same applies (back on topic) about astrological zodiacs and the people whose sign rules or guides them.

I'm still a novice to astrology, at times I lost interest after I became very fascinated about astrology and the related science astronomy debunked horoscopes, as well religion and the paranormal realm to things. But I'm back and understood more about astrology to have them make sense and it does make sense to me.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 01-20-2012, 07:19 AM
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Dear uranian thread

Dear Uranian thread,

"Primum non nocere"

My first intention when I see a chart like the one presented by rubyelixer is to give it my full attention, especially since the client's real name was posted in error (to which the poster truly apologized for BTW) and also because the topic at hand--cross dressing, "otherness" and gender identity--is front and center in our current national, as well as global discussion. Whether the J. Edgar Hoover cross dressing rumor mill, South African track runner Castor Semenya's record runs, XX / XY special "trans-guests" on Oprah or Middlesex novel by Jeffrey Eugenides (the list is long in many fields) this topic touches a deep nerve culturally. It is also a blazing hot area of genetic, neurological and academic research creating social discourse and, unsurprisingly, social strife. Most importantly, since I live in Manhattan, I also have had many transgendered astrological clients, so I felt authorized to comment. This is key. I wrote about what I have direct experience with.

My astrological attention is mostly Hippocratic in disposition--"Do no harm" --especially since Astrology, for better or worse, in its contemporary form has become "psychological astrology". We are astro-shrinks. (This fusion of its [Astrology] ancient religious roots alongside deeply medical ones coinciding with the emerging 19th century field of psychology coupled with the transcendentalist / spiritualist movement was a boon to Astrology in general and is an interesting historical subject in itself to study.)

The Hippocratic Corpus in Epidemics helps us: "The physician must...have two special objects in view...namely, to do good or to do no harm".

I chose "good" first followed by "do no harm". So, again, my first responsibility and intention was to the client "Fred" and not to "put down" or condescend to anyone including, most especially, any other astro-community members.

(I also wanted to share that I don't speak with any type of "New Yawker" accent or subscribe to any "tough", "take no ****" New York generalizations. I'm World traveled, have lived in Asia and could write a book on the subject of New York since I was born in Greenwich Village.)

With that said, I will now share some vexing thoughts about Astrology as it relates to community sites. I came across this astro-site one recent late evening and simply decided to take a look. I do not spend much time on these type of sites nor am I a member of any due to my own busy schedule as well as what I see as a repetitive tendency toward extreme astrological relativism and appropriating nonsense, i.e., members simply rehashing what they have read by some astrological author while trying to sound important yet, simultaneously, couching all their answers with qualifiers, approximations and interpretive fence sitting so they will not be seen as "wrong" or accused of narrow vision --sorry.

My feeling is that even with all the planets and current astrological bodies to chose from --and there are many, too many perhaps--it is still possible to reflect a sound astrological interpretation. A trine is still 120 degrees and a square is still 90 degrees while keeping in mind not everything is set in stone. Given enough information and experience a competent astrologer can work through a chart provided they have a praxis to do so. The question here is whether some members have the praxis --or ability--to do so. (Another question is naturally posed: does contemporary Astrology in general, in all its myriad, albeit nebulous forms, offer a sound praxis?...reading from the chart first handed not regurging different astrobook's systems and styles? We really do have a "post-modern" astrology and something of a crisis if we are honest.)

My feelings in regard to the community member "Miquar" are not personal but I do have to say that Miquar's first reading was, simply stated, wrong (despite Miquar's admonishing quote by Goethe). Miquar included two aspects in error while missing another and still insensitively pushed for the inappropriate inclusion of L. Green's statistics on violent psychopathology, i.e., murderers, and then went on to describe a trine as being the guilty "wounding" aspect to make the case. I was actually understanding about this--everyone makes errors, no problem-- but when Miquar included the inappropriate statistics while adding: "...I can't think of anything else to add...my psychoanalytical knowledge is pretty sparse." I decided to weigh in on the discussion responsibly. My included quote by B. Disraeli was not a "blindside" but a defense. I will state it clearly: If you have no praxis, read aspects in error, push offensive statistics that don't apply and then wrap it all up with the clincher, "My psychoanalytic knowledge is pretty sparse", maybe you shouldn't be commenting, especially as it relates to this very particular psychological chart? (You could also generally glean from my statistical retort that its inclusion signalled an error was present--a sign.)

I found it noteworthy that Miquar would then play wounded --as if Miquar were the victim--after the damaging commentary that was made by Miquar. Incredibly, the gist of the whole thread (even Fred's Uranian turn itself) is the concept of "empathy". Miquar writes: "...since it is the lack of lunar empathy that largely defines the psychopathic personality." This forced inclusion begs the question: Where is your lunar empathy? (BTW, You won't get too many takers on Venus trine Chiron "wounding" especially among Magi astrologers.) The whole concept of "wounding" needs to be revisited as it has been passed down through a generation of therapeutic styled soothsayers in books and practice. The concept would benefit from being correctly identified as it relates to the integrity of each chart in singularity. Essentially, It is an overused term that pervades current astrological nomenclature and prevents an engagement with other possibilities of the chart.
In my New York playbook--if there is one-- Miquar should apologize to Fred and the community for being in an eccentric, irresponsible orbit --an "errant body" if you will.

What is also interesting is Miquar's use of an apparent (?) 18th century German literature quote that Miquar attributes to Goethe: "To be uncertain is to be uncomfortable, to be certain is to be ridiculous". No doubt Miquar uses it to soften up the astro-commentary in an attempt to be viewed as "worldly" or "open minded"--even as the quote's actual origins are in question since they are attributed to ancient China--
but the real literary irony is as it relates to cross dressing because the quoted author, Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe, publicly demonstrated his own cross dressing and transvestic inclinations when he took his own mother's luxurious full length red fur coat and famously donned it for an unforgettable public skate across the frozen river in his home city prior to writing his first best seller, The Sorrows of Young Werther, published in 1774!
It was such a flaming spectacle that it made the news. Old engravings even memorialized it as did popular articles. In fact, recent scholarship has identified deep themes of transvestism/transgendering in Goethe's life and work (e.g., see pgs. 258-260 Sexual Personae, Camille Paglia). Hermes would be proud--LOL.

While I applaud anyone taking part in a conversation--I mean, it's simply fun and it is a public site --I felt that this particular chart and the circumstances surrounding it deserved a responsible reply even as I ushered in a very urbane tongue in the initial post. Make no mistake though, the description may have been a glittery confection but the chart analysis was as serious as Ole Saturn with some Uranus and Pluto for good measure.

I will suggest a new quote for Miquar's use:

"Out of moderation a pure happiness springs"
--Goethe

Sidereally,
Science of Self


PS: I acknowledge uncertainty everywhere. Indeterminacy rules, especially scientifically. Our individual lives and our Universe as a whole are woven with it; yet, unbelievably, we can navigate this ocean of possibilities...if we know how.

Last edited by scienceofself; 01-24-2012 at 07:45 AM.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 06:52 PM
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The Dark Sun and The Neon Kabuki Starlet

Rubyelixer,
My apologies for being absent. I promised I would look at your ringy chart --which I will do-- but for now after a quick glance it appears that you're an artist--a painter in all likelihood with a photographic /media chart too. Since you're a late OX with a cusped Saturn in late Capricorn and a Jupiter in the fifth house of Aquarius (very Tiger sign-like nonetheless) with a powerful stellium in the fourth making trines to the 12th with Uranus and Pluto.
You probably are creating children's images of some sort with an emphasis on miniaturization as the fourth house brings with it modes of nostalgia, (miniaturization would be a type of analogous motif of childhood with the fourth house and Saturn nearby.) You have a winter Sun so the paintings may bear a strange lighting too...have you ever seen El Greco's moody skies? Overall it's a blend of Mercury MC and its placement in the fourth versus the 12th house trine to H4 and Jupiter in H5-Topicality versus Depth. While Saturn rules "time" its presence in the fifth suggests (along with Jupiter) that you will be attracted to POP modes and the weird sublime...How about illustrating a cool children's book or making your own? Weird antique candy? (Steam punk will get your eye but overall its too dark for your candy colored Mercury.)
Did you watch cartoons growing up?...Check out Kenny Scharf's paintings.

You would probably blend this wintering effect to fourth house "curios"--objet trouve' in many different forms.
Since you have the two large historically masculine planets [Jupiter and Saturn] in the fifth house while being an evening birth the planetary effect is akin to an "inverted sun"--daylit and solarizing but dark and moody. This produces a weird sublime artistically speaking yet it is sensitive and understanding of others--truly sympathetic. I bet you really are a good friend. Do you collect interesting objects?

Do you like the magic hour between dusk and dark? Yes, I think you do.

The chart also points to makeup and "display" in general as you have a Mercury ruled midheaven (disposited into the fourth house stellium and the 12th Uranus) as well as theater. Harajuku district? Kabuki anyone? Better yet, you dream of being a neon lit Kabuki starlet while riding a magic glissando of synthesized koto music. You are lovely. You are crazy. You are crazy lovely. (Something tells me that you are pretty too.)

I know a woman with a slightly similar chart who knits! If you were to knit they would be mixtures of yarned abstraction filling in for the moodiness plus the above mentioned motifs--like a spider's web of ornamentation--check out Judy Pfaffs work for ideas or perhaps Laurie Simmons (funny but too serious) or even older still life painters from the Beaux arts period. Check out old Dutch still life painter Willem Kalf too.

Im going to bed now. Ill pick this up over the weekend...an island of weird toys comes to mind or candy. On another note, have you ever painted glass or been entranced with stained glass? (Church stained glass comes to mind--Uranus 12) If you created your own it would be very interesting since it would be inspired by new motifs. Imagine your paintings in stained glass? Also sheer transparency is interesting...a minimalist paring down to achieve sublimity.

Thank you.

PS: Check out the Japanese band "Tripple Nipple". You will enjoy--lol.

Sidereally,
Science of Self

Last edited by scienceofself; 01-23-2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Unread 01-21-2012, 02:51 PM
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Re: Dear uranian thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceofself View Post
"Out of moderation a pure happiness springs"
--Goethe

Sidereally,
Science of Self


PS: I acknowledge uncertainty everywhere. Indeterminacy rules, especially scientifically. Our individual lives and our Universe as a whole are woven with it; yet, unbelievably, we can navigate this ocean of possibilities...if we know how.

um all i have to say is you are one awesome being my friend ;o)
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