Childbirth: Solar & Lunar Returns

tokyo.lights

Well-known member
Solar, Lunar Returns

..........

Can a mod delete this thread please.

[Moderator note: if a thread has replies to it, it can't be deleted - however the OP can delete all their postings if they want]
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I’ve noticed that childbirth can sometimes show up in the Solar and Lunar returns. Lemme show you how...

It can show up in one of three ways:
(1)Solar Return ASC or MC = Natal IC or Moon
(2)Solar Return IC = Natal ASC, IC, MC or Moon
(3)Solar Return Moon = Natal ASC, IC or MC

same with Lunar.

I've come up with some celebrity examples (using relocated charts).

:cool:

Britney Spears:

Birth #1 in Sep 14, 2005
Solar Return MC = 4°08 Capricorn
Natal IC = 2°47 Capricorn

Lunar Return IC = 0°12 Libra
Natal ASC = 2°38 Libra

Birth #2 in Sep 12, 2006
Solar Return IC = 1°11 Libra
Natal ASC = 2°38 Libra

Lunar Return IC = 14°02 Aquarius
Natal Moon = 12°23 Aquarius

Christina Aguilera:

Birth #1 January 12, 2008
Solar Return MC = 16°09 Taurus
Natal Moon 14°44 Taurus

Lunar Return ASC = 8°39 Taurus
Natal Moon = 14°44 Taurus

Christina is pregnant right now,
I don’t when when she’ll give birth so I can’t do the Lunar for the birth month, but here’s her Solar return for 2014 (which would mean the baby will arrive after her birthday on Dec 18, or at least around it.

Solar Return 2014
Solar Return ASC = 11°01 Taurus
Natal Moon = 14°44 Taurus

Kate Middleton:

Birth July 22, 2013
Solar Return MC = 19°47 Cancer
Natal IC = 16°34 Cancer

Lunar Return ASC = 7°45 Cancer
Natal Moon = 14°21 Cancer

Halle Berry:

Birth March 18, 2008
Solar Return IC = 22°59 Taurus
Natal ASC = 20°05 Taurus

Lunar Return ASC = 15°19 Leo
Natal Moon = 3°11 Leo (wide, but I wanted to include it)

Mariah Carey:

Birth April 30, 2011
Solar Return IC = 20°01 Taurus
Natal ASC = 15°45 Taurus

Lunar Return ASC = 5°47 Sagittarius
Natal Moon = 29°05 Scorpio

Jessica Simpson:

Birth May 1, 2012
Solar Return ASC = 28°07 Gemini
Natal Moon = 2°58 Cancer

Lunar Return IC = 0°42 Cancer
Natal Moon = 2°58 Cancer
It is a fundamental rule of astrology that
the totality of the testimonies of the natal chart promise AS A WHOLE
when taking the entire natal chart into consideration
are the reliable indicators of whether children are promised or not


AND

for statistical purposes, at least 250 examples are required before one may even begin to draw tentative conclusions regarding a workable theory

Tips on NATAL CHART DELINEATION
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48463

I checked my solar return from birth till 50, and noticed I have about 6 of these…all coming up within the next 10 years. I strongly hope free will plays a part in this!! lol:andy:
The natal chart must promise children - for example, one technique is as discussed in the DELINEATING CHILDREN thread at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49614
So an illustration of delineating the natal promise for children in a natal chart - or otherwise -
for those interested to check the testimonies of the entire natal promise
BEFORE experimenting with the Solar Returns and Lunar Returns
is as follows
:smile:
"When will I marry", "How many children I'll have" - these are the most frequent questions of the people who are interested in astrology.
Here I will explain the method of delineation of fertility or sterility of the chart.
Guessing the number of children is a very tricky thing, but delineating whether there will be few, many or no children at all is quite possible and this art can predict that.

Well, I do not have a lot of affinity toward theory and there fore I will grab my pen and scribe the rules directly, so we can later practically delineate charts and see the rules on practical example charts.

Here's what Lilly says about the fertility or sterility of the Signs (I know that Lilly is not medieval astrologer, but he draws a lot from the medieval sources):

Aries: By reason Mars, a sterill planet hath that for his house, and the Sun for Exaltation, is rather a Sign of Barrennesse than otherwise.
Taurus: Is reputed more fruitful than barren, being the house of Venus, who is fruitful, and the exaltation of the Moon.
Gemini: Is adjudged barren, being the house of Mercury, who discerns nothing of himself.
Cancer is the most fruitful and bountiful Sign, it being the house of the Moon, and the exaltation of Jupiter.
Leo: Is reputed barren, being the house of the Sun, and Lyons bring forth Young rarely.
Virgo: Hath the name of the barren Signe, for Mayds of themselves produce no Births &c.
Libra
: Rather a Signe of fecundity, it being the house of Venus, and Saturn his exaltation [4].
Scorpio: Though the house of Mars, yet generally accepted for fruitful.
Sagittarius: Ever conceived fruitfull, because the house of Jupiter.
Capricorn: A Signe of few children inclining to barrennesse.
Aquarius: Without doubt more fruitful than barren.
Pisces: Very fecund and prolificall, being the House of Jupiter and exaltation of Venus, its Signe of many Children.

Fruitful Houses:
1/11/10/7 and 5th.

Fruitful Planets:
Jupiter/Venus/Moon (Mercury is fruitful but if joined with Sun, Mars or Saturn can go to the sterility side).
Sun (because of the heat) and the 2 Malefics are sterile planets.

Pars Filorum (Part of Children):
ASC + SA - JU for a day births, reversed for night ones.

1. Look at 1st, 11th, 10th or 7th house, and see if there are some of the Significators for Children: Jupiter, Venus, Moon, Mercury, Lord of the 5th, Pars Fortuna, Pars Filorum and their Lords; or notice if the planets who deny children are there.

Bonatti:
Quote:
If at least some of the aforesaid planets signifying children are in
the specified houses or even in the 5th and the said planets are for*-
tunate and strong and aspected by the benefics by a trine or sextile
with or without reception, or even by a square with reception, it
signifies that the native will undoubtedly have children unless the
saidsignificator is within 1minute ofsomefixed star ofthe nature
of Mars or Saturn. However if the significators are weak, they
show that the children will be few.

Quote:
But if none of the aforesaid significators were there & the pars for-
tunae or pars filiorum were there and any of the malefics should
aspect the said part it completely denies children whether they are
weak or strong, unless by chance, a benefic trines or sextiles the
malefic with reception or it (the malefic) were with a fixed star
of the nature of Jupiter, Venus or the Moon in the same minute,
and let it not be in Leo, Virgo, Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius or in
Taurus. Mercury varies depending on the nature ofthe planet it is
joined with.

Bonatti also says that if one of the significators for children are in the aforesaid places, and this planet happens to be Void of Course, then this means that the native will have only one child.
(Some argue about this and say that Bonatti here refers to Horary Delineation)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
"Virgo: Hath the name of the barren Signe, for Mayds of themselves produce no Births &c."

Oh my God lol!!!
That is ludicrous.
I don't even know if it's worth listing famous women with Virgo Moons who have children.
I can't stop laughing!
:D
Great.... laughter is the best medicine
and
by the way
your comment is a
Good illustration
that focusing on ONE factor TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE
is indeed ludicrous :smile:

and substantiates my contention
which is
that THE ENTIRETY OF THE NATAL CHART REQUIRES DELINEATION

You neglected to quote the rest of the advice just posted:
i.e.

Fruitful Houses:
1/11/10/7 and 5th.

So
even if the natal chart under consideration has a Virgo Moon
if that Virgo Moon is located in one of the fruitful houses
then obviously that has an impact on the delineation of children


Fruitful Planets:
Jupiter/Venus/Moon

So
another factor to consider
is whether said Virgo Moon is in aspect with Fruitful planets Jupiter and Venus



and
take into account that:

Mercury is fruitful

BUT

if joined with Sun, Mars or Saturn
can go to the sterility side

Sun (because of the heat)
and the 2 Malefics are sterile planets
.


One ALSO calculates the Pars Filorum

Pars Filorum (Part of Children):
ASC + SA - JU for a day births, reversed for night ones.


then
INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON ONE ASPECT SOLELY

1. Look at 1st, 11th, 10th or 7th house,
and see if there are some of the Significators for Children:
Jupiter, Venus, Moon, Mercury, Lord of the 5th, Pars Fortuna, Pars Filorum and their Lords;
or notice if the planets who deny children are there


AND

Bonatti says:
Quote:
If at least some of the aforesaid planets signifying children are in the specified houses
or even in the 5th
and the said planets are fortunate and strong
and aspected by the benefics by a trine or sextile
with or without reception,
or even by a square with reception,
it signifies that the native will undoubtedly have children unless
the said significator is within 1minute of some fixed star of the nature of Mars or Saturn.
However if the significators are weak,
they
show that the children will be few.

Quote:
But if none of the aforesaid significators were there & the pars fortunae or pars filiorum were there
and any of the malefics should aspect the said part
it completely denies children
whether they are weak or strong,
unless by chance, a benefic trines or sextiles the
malefic with reception
or it (the malefic)
were with a fixed star of the nature of Jupiter, Venus or the Moon in the same minute,
and
let it not be in Leo, Virgo, Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius
or in
Taurus.

Mercury varies depending on the nature of the planet it is
joined with.

Bonatti also says that if one of the significators for children are in the aforesaid places,
and this planet happens to be Void of Course,
then this means that the native will have only one child.
KEEP IN MIND HOWEVER
Some argue about this and say that Bonatti here refers to Horary Delineation

Speaking of fertility, well everyone in my family gets preg - or someone preg at a drop of a hat, so no concern genetically. Moon also rules my 5th house and is free from any bad aspects.

But I digress!

I don't think it's the only signs of pregnancy in prediction...or that you HAVE to have it, to fall pregnant. I'm sure Christina had a birth year in 2009 and...no babies. Of course her Solar 5th house was also emply, unlike 2007 and 2014.
I probably would need more data, but the above can't be a coincidence either! It's just too accurate to be a random coincidence.
Accuracy of Solar Return and Lunar Returns is entirely dependent on accuracy of time of birth
and
accuracy of official times of birth of celebrities is notoriously unreliable

 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
1st, 11th, 10th and 7th house don't represent children.
Personally I don't believe in ancient astrology, so we're gonna have to agree to disagree!
:biggrin:
Since 'you do not believe in ancient astrology'
then you have clearly no knowledge of the craft
and
that is your choice
everyone is entitled to their own opinion
HOWEVER
ancient astrology is the basis of all astrology

Also, I think you can "big up" your own theories without needing to squash someone else's.

I believe I'm onto something very significant, so there! :annoyed:
Quite simply, without 'squashing' any theories
all that has been said is:
the entire natal chart promise
must be taken into consideration

IF NOT

then

the natal chart may be entirely dispensed with
and that is ludicrous
:smile:
Oh! and I have brought examples with me, where are yours? :p
EXAMPLE
As in other delineations, here we will also do an ex post facto astrology delineation, this is the way of learning.

Astrodatabank rapports 5 children of Jessie Jackson but it seems that he has 6 (the one in his later years with his mistress).


3446ql4.png


We look for the planets in the fruitful houses.

Venus a fruitful planet is in the 10th in a fruitful sign (Scorpio).

For beginning this a good indicator.

We see Mercury 6 degrees away from the MC in the same sign.

(Mercury with Venus would be fruitful planet and in this case it is ruler of 5th and dispositor of Jupiter in 5th).


Next, we see Jupiter (ruler of 11th and 7th by exaltation).

The thing that Jupiter is in barren sign does not impede him because Mercury its dispositor is in fruitful sign and house with Venus.

We see no Malefics in the aforesaid places.
The nasty Saturn retrograde from 4th oppositing Venus can bring problems, but not in the matter of producing children, he did brought problems in the scandalous children rumors with his mistress.

Notice also that Venus is opposite with Moon
another fruitful planet.

So, because Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are on the fruitful places
and
because no Malefic is impeding these houses,
we can judge that the native will have many children
.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE
Delineating No Children in celebrity charts is a bit tricky thing. Why? Because the chart may show fertility but the person decided not to have children at all.

However, there are charts like the following one, where sterility is shown very clearly.

We all know the famous astrologer Steven Forrest.
Even though I now study Traditional Astrology, I still appreciate and respect Stevie a lot.
He is a wonderful astrologer and very beautiful soul.

A little digression. I've just notice that both: Steven Forrest and Robert Zoller are born in Mount Vernon :)

This is an excellent information, both are leaders in their astrology fields of studies. Very interesting thing.

Lets look at the chart of Steven Forrest.

6j1192.png


We see immediatelly Saturn in 10th in barren sign.

We see Moon in 5th in barren sign.

Pars Fortunae in 10th in barren sign.

Pars Filorum falls in 4th house in Pisces, but its dispositor Jupiter is in Capricorn - one of the most barren signs.

Almuten of 5th - the Sun is in Capricorn too.

Mercury ruler and almuten of 10th is combust and in Capricorn too.

Venus is 5 degrees awau from the 2nd house so she too falls in 2nd (and not in 1st!).

These are many indicators for not having children.

One would judge:

"The person will have very few children or none at all
".

We always leave possibility because of the Moon in 5th, but bearing in mind the thought that it is in the sign of Malefic Mars, and Mars is not in very fruitful sign either. Aquarius is fruitful but not one of the most fruitful (as Cancer or Pisces).
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Only two examples?
Your examples are two lines of text
Your fixation on the infertile is bizarre and overwhelmingly pessimistic in a thread about pregnancy and childbirth. Only 6% of women are infertile. Oh the irony of you having a Jupiter Ascendant :pinched:
There are 7 billion human inhabitants of this planet
I doubt that all were checked for fertility/infertility indicators by your 'percentages example'
AND
the choice of the word 'fixation' is bizarre
given that of the two examples
one was of Jesse Jackson, the father of six or seven children
clearly not 'an example of sterility'
The irony is
you are not reading my comments
But you don't have to
that's your choice

EXAMPLE THAT YOU IGNORED

As in other delineations, here we will also do an ex post facto astrology delineation,
this is the way of learning.

Astrodatabank reports 5 children of Jessie Jackson
but it seems that he has 6 (the one in his later years with his mistress).


3446ql4.png


We look for the planets in the fruitful houses.

Venus a fruitful planet is in the 10th in a fruitful sign (Scorpio).

For beginning this a good indicator.
We see Mercury 6 degrees away from the MC in the same sign.
(Mercury with Venus would be fruitful planet and in this case it is ruler of 5th and dispositor of Jupiter in 5th).

Next, we see Jupiter (ruler of 11th and 7th by exaltation).

The thing that Jupiter is in barren sign does not impede him because Mercury its dispositor is in fruitful sign and house with Venus.


We see no Malefics in the aforesaid places.
The nasty Saturn retrograde from 4th oppositing Venus can bring problems, but not in the matter of producing children, he did brought problems in the scandalous children rumors with his mistress. (Notice also that Venus is opposite with Moon (another fruitful planet).

So, because Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are on the fruitful places and because no Malefic is impeding these houses, we can judge that the native will have many children
.
Curious that you read that example as being one with 'a fixation on barrenness'
Anyway, my partner has Jupiter and Mercury in the 5th. One way or another we're having babies!! lol
WONDERFUL NEWS - now prepare to be excellent parents :smile:
 
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