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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 11-24-2013, 11:07 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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The Future Already Exists

Patrice Guinard, in his paper on domification, asks, “Why should the existence of siblings, an aleatory event of biological nature, show up in the chart of a native whose birth, in certain cases, was previous to that event?” If the future already exists, as I am sure it does, then the question is answered. A future event, apparently aleatory, which affects the native whether the sibling is senior or junior to him, is shown in the chart because it preexists the birth of the native. The future event is a feature of the region of spacetime through which the native will be traveling and appears on the map just as a mountain pass does on an ordinary topographic map. In point of fact the two – the birth of the native and the birth of the sibling – exist in simultaneity, are synchronous, but our viewpoint is limited by the linear perception of time that billions of years of evolution has bequeathed us, eloquently adapted to surviving and prospering in our earthly milieu but not adequate in its normal operation to see across the vast distances of spacetime, and our normal consciousness perceives events as consecutive rather than concurrent.

Noel Tyl tells us that “Mind-twisting hypotheses using the theory of relativity can logically prove a changing of subjective time sense when we are taken out of our normal objective world. Precognition in dreams constantly defies a time barrier and assimilates a future condition.” My own certainty that the future is already out there, waiting to be met by us as we move through our sense of linear time, rests on a pair of prophetic dreams I had some 40 years ago. Quite independently of anything I ever read or discussed, I came to this startling conclusion: the future already exists. It was, and still is, the only logical and plausible explanation I could find for those dreams.

Astrology is built on spacetime. The birth data required to construct an accurately prophetic map are the time and place of birth, which specify a unique locus in spacetime. Earth’s orbital path is not really a circle (more properly an ellipse) but can be conceived of as a spiral, a helical coil something like a Slinky loosely extended along the path of the Sun moving along its own orbit within the galaxy, across the fabric of spacetime. This conception of Earth’s orbital path (other forms are possible, even probable, but this one serves for our discussion) means that we (the Earth and the creatures upon it) never occupy the same moment of spacetime twice, but are constantly and eternally moving through and into new moments. We move at a snail’s pace when compared to light, and our awareness of events must await our motion through spacetime along our helical path until we arrive at what already exists. Occasionally our mind, usually through dreams and by a process unknown to us, sometimes bridges spacetime and presents us with a vision of the preexisting future “ahead of time.” Astrology, through its mapping of the cosmos, creates another type of bridge, one that allows the rational intellect to see forward along our path through spacetime without assistance from the dream-mind.

If the future already exists, and only awaits our arrival to enter our consciousness, then free will is dealt a heavy blow, for our own life-path necessarily follows the helical path of Earth. But the blow is not a mortal one, because it is possible that through the exercise of our free will, constrained though it may be to follow the path of the Earth of which we are an integral part, the vibrations of our little acts of free will travel along the preexisting path to the awaiting future event and modify it somewhat. The event will hold to its inherent form, but may change in respect to its details.

A sort of sideways clarification of this idea comes from Robert Hand. He says, “If anyone who is open-minded looks at predictions that have failed, or even at statements about the natal chart that seem to be wrong, he or she will see that these errors are due to astrological polymorphism. Polymorphic simply means that something has many shapes or forms. Astrological symbolism has that quality.” And herein lies the wiggle-room that allows for free will. The vibratory patterns created by our actions in the present travel along the conduit of our predestined orbital path - life path, and change the shape or form of the preexisting future event – within the limits allowed by astrological polymorphism – according to the nature of the vibrations. It is to that extent, and that extent only, that we can change the future.

But we should be aware that small actions can have momentous consequences. For want of the nail the shoe was lost.... applies to the positive and constructive as well as the negative and destructive. If we attend to the nail in the here and now, the vibrations of our self-responsible and constructive conscious act will travel forward so that when we arrive at our future fate, awaiting us since the beginning, we will find a future consonant with our acts in the present. This is the law of karma: “...for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”


Last edited by greybeard; 11-24-2013 at 11:28 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 11-25-2013, 02:08 AM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

The future exists, but in the form of an infinity of choices based on an infinity of choices of free will.
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  #3  
Unread 11-25-2013, 02:31 AM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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The future exists, but in the form of an infinity of choices based on an infinity of choices of free will.
Just so, IMHO. Each perspective voiced here is *true* within the freeze-frame moment being spoken from and its context of origin, whether experiential or conceptual.

It's all true, and it's *always shifting,* moment by moment. By virtue of our co-creative agreement to experience sequential/linear time and space and propelled, as Zarathu points up, by each moment's choices made, whether consciously or unconsciously.
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  #4  
Unread 11-25-2013, 04:37 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I don't think you understood what I said.

And here I thought I was a tolerable communicator. What a letdown.

Cool Hand Luke was right: What we have here is a breakdown in communication.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 06:21 AM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

For examples.

The choice we made are based on our personality that is the result of the configuration of our planets.

The life events that occurred in our life were already set on the day I was born or even before birth.

It is not my own choice to have genetic diseases, or have the much higher risk gene combination that leads to over production of cholesterol later leading to stroke.

It is not my choice to be born in a family with high incident of heart attacks, bowel, breast cancer, many more, including pulmonary fibrosis while some can smoke and drink all their life but never has major diseases.

It is not my choice of having intelligent disabilities. It is not my choice to be abuses, and it is not my choice to die even.

The speed and path of all the stars we see today were from yesterday and many light years ago. We thought we are seeing now, but in fact the past being now, and we know the light will continue to travel can also predict when these stars will transit and die. Time is only an illusion.

The natal chart is the blue print of a foundation of a building. The entire building is based on that foundation. Before we build the building, we can see how it will look like from the design, and after finished building, we can then again look back the birth of the building. We can also predict how the building materials will behave in the future base on science/techiques and calculates based on experiences and accumulative knowledge of engineering, what will be the better used of this building design, and how fast the material will deteriorate so when it will need repairing etc. There is nothing over complicated about Free will. The life path is fixed as the building block was fixed.
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  #6  
Unread 11-25-2013, 12:34 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
A sort of sideways clarification of this idea comes from Robert Hand. He says, “If anyone who is open-minded looks at predictions that have failed, or even at statements about the natal chart that seem to be wrong, he or she will see that these errors are due to astrological polymorphism. Polymorphic simply means that something has many shapes or forms. Astrological symbolism has that quality.” And herein lies the wiggle-room that allows for free will. The vibratory patterns created by our actions in the present travel along the conduit of our predestined orbital path - life path, and change the shape or form of the preexisting future event – within the limits allowed by astrological polymorphism – according to the nature of the vibrations. It is to that extent, and that extent only, that we can change the future.

But we should be aware that small actions can have momentous consequences. For want of the nail the shoe was lost.... applies to the positive and constructive as well as the negative and destructive. If we attend to the nail in the here and now, the vibrations of our self-responsible and constructive conscious act will travel forward so that when we arrive at our future fate, awaiting us since the beginning, we will find a future consonant with our acts in the present. This is the law of karma: “...for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”
This is exactly my view on free will and karma synthesis. It is like standing on the crossroads and being able to choose which road to take. But all the choices are within the karma range and usually it is just a matter of taking the easier or the harder route. When you make your choice the law of karma will force you to go along the chosen path until the next crossroads and so on, and so on, and so on...

But there is another thing - karma can be erased. According to eastern philosophies karma is nothing more than deep subliminal impressions buried within the most inner core of living being and most people act unconsciously according to them. This is why e.g. someone prefers one thing over another but he cannot explain why. If those subliminal impressions are realized consciously, through meditation or other spiritual technique, then they are experienced, lived through in a way, so there is no need for them to be manifested nor they influence behavior of the person any more. This is why astrology wouldn't work for Buddha, Jesus and other known and unknown spiritual giants - simply they had cleared their "system" of karma, they were no longer influenced by it.

Last edited by Cap; 11-25-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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  #7  
Unread 11-25-2013, 12:54 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Actually based on my Christian belief and the teaching of against the use of any divination. For about 6 years I had avoid learning due to my thought of karma was already been removed base on salvation of Christ. I predicted I will be wounded in relationship and if I got married before 30 years old I would have divorce. I predicted using Chinese astrology that before getting baptised. I denied astrology and used spiritual belief in the faith of alternate fate and destiny by clearing the sin in physical flash. However I still suffered against my own will and control also divorced as the time was indicated. Everything was written in the chart after I had gone through my wounds and felt betrayed by God even I truly tried everything to be good and be devoted with daily services. But then it was all just pretending and many people at church were just pretending I saw the other side of religion. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in God. I can not deny God when I see the lifes and planets he created. In fact astrology confirmed God as everything rules in cycles and regulations. While the ugly side of reglion they pray for what is not meant to be theirs and keep saying as long as you have faith and offer money you will be blessed. My way of understand is I have completed faith in God whatever He had in place for me I surrendered and accepted all in peace. I don't ask Him to remove my pain and trials instead I embraced those experiences knowing that it will only be good to form me into a better person. Knowing that The Divine/God/Spring of life will only want the best for me. I stopped thinking using prayer and attending church pretending life that is not honest and lack of internal true faith. To me if I have enough strength and faith why should I pray for pain to be removed or to ask for strength cause I already knew it will all be there for me to support me through.

Last edited by poyi; 11-25-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 03:24 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

"If we attend to the nail in the here and now, the vibrations of our self-responsible and constructive conscious act will travel forward so that when we arrive at our future fate, awaiting us since the beginning, we will find a future consonant with our acts in the present."

I wonder why I used that word? Here's why:

"karma is nothing more than deep subliminal impressions buried within the most inner core of living being and most people act unconsciously according to them."

We don't seem to realize that what we meet in the outer world, the world external to our selves, is nothing more than the projection of our inner self. What we are unwilling to see within us takes shape outside of us, and we must face it there.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 03:27 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

True, once you are being honest with your inner demons, being realistic, and forgive yourself while initiating positive changes (facing the problems) you can free your soul. Self denials and pretending are the main two sources of sufferings.
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Unread 11-25-2013, 03:35 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Here's a quotation from The Confessions of Augustine a friend just shared with me:

"all, past and future, is created and issues out of that which is forever present [...] For where have those men who have foretold the future seen the things foretold, if then they were not yet existing? For what does not exist cannot be seen. And those who tell of things past could not speak of them as if they were true, if they did not see them in their minds. These things could in no way be discerned if they did not exist. There are therefore times present and times past. [...] For if there are times past and future, I wish to know where they are. But if I have not yet succeeded in this, I still know that wherever they are, they are not there as future or past, but as present. For if they are there as future, they are there as "not yet"; if they are there as past, they are there as "no longer." Wherever they are and whatever they are they exist therefore only as present."
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Unread 11-25-2013, 04:20 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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We don't seem to realize that what we meet in the outer world, the world external to our selves, is nothing more than the projection of our inner self. What we are unwilling to see within us takes shape outside of us, and we must face it there.
Beautifully said! Functioning of the universe described in one precise simple statement.

Astrologically, this is why someone's inner world and outer circumstances are both described in one chart. They are not independent but correspond to each other.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 12:28 AM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

That describes my own vision of astrology,and why I tend to focus on depth psychology as it is shown in the chart. The psyche creates external reality to a large degree, and as Heraclitus said, "Character is destiny."
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Unread 11-26-2013, 01:38 AM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

There is something very interesting from ancient Chinese proverbs I would like to share that shows a lot of our culture based on occult sciences and how using that philosophy to alternate fate while we think Now/Present is the key of the Past and Future.

一命二運三風水四積陰德五讀書
六名七相八敬神九交貴人十養生
十一擇業與擇偶十二趨吉及避兇
十三逢苦要無怨十四不固執善惡 十五榮光因緣來

I will translate with the terms English readers can understand.

First Your Fate as who you are,
Second as progressions/transits, all sorts of people that coming in to your life and events in life can change your luck for better or worse, interaction with those people and your repsonses to those events will determine your life.
Third as The use of Feng Shui, the outer worlds reflects your inner world and so the change of the outer immediate environment can give you positive changes internally.
Forth as To accumulate good Karma, can surely reduce the amount of enemies
Fifth as To gain good education, to learn and become honorable through knowledge and morality
Sixth as Reputation, when you are in need, your reputation can save/destroy you
Seventh as The use of Face/Hand readings to understand self as well as your external appearance, impression can determine rather people will accept you or aviod you
Eighth as Respect Gods, who respect moral standards
Ninth as Being friends with those with honorable natures,
Tenth as Looking after your own health,
Eleventh as Choosing the right occupation and Choosing the right spouse, Twelfth as Use your wisdom to avoid unnecessary black luck,
Thirteenth as If you are in sufferings you should not dismay and complain,
Fourteenth as Do not be stubborn and harden in heart in both Good and Evil
Fifteenth as Glory and Karma. If you live your life based on good will, with/maintain positive reputation, for sure you can be successful when you are alive and even after death.

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Last edited by poyi; 11-26-2013 at 01:49 AM.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 07:45 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

incredible.... I wonder... just yesterday I read this article by Yakir Aharonov, a physicist, where he says something along these lines. That the future influences the present, and even the past. He deals with quantum physics and I cannot even understand what he does, but his main principle. He seems to be saying that the time flows in both ways - from the past into the future, and from future into the past, and that in the same way that we perhaps are evolving in an "evolution", he thinks that there already exists an "us" in the final form, and the point in time which we consider as "now", is just midway from our future, and that the future ultimately shapes us towards it, and influences how the past, or "now" looks like. Or something like that. Sorry if I'm unable to make my point clear, but I managed to find an article with him, maybe he will clarify it better than me:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/futur...sics-time.html
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:07 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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incredible.... I wonder... just yesterday I read this article by Yakir Aharonov, a physicist, where he says something along these lines. That the future influences the present, and even the past. He deals with quantum physics and I cannot even understand what he does, but his main principle. He seems to be saying that the time flows in both ways - from the past into the future, and from future into the past, and that in the same way that we perhaps are evolving in an "evolution", he thinks that there already exists an "us" in the final form, and the point in time which we consider as "now", is just midway from our future, and that the future ultimately shapes us towards it, and influences how the past, or "now" looks like. Or something like that. Sorry if I'm unable to make my point clear, but I managed to find an article with him, maybe he will clarify it better than me:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/futur...sics-time.html
I said that in another post concerning past lives. There are no "past lives"or future lives; all occur simultaneously as outside our dimension space and time do not exist. Since all occur simultaneously, each life affects the others - the choices you make now affect your other lives, past and future, and they you. The more you learn, the more they learn.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:23 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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Originally Posted by Lucid View Post
incredible.... I wonder... just yesterday I read this article by Yakir Aharonov, a physicist, where he says something along these lines. That the future influences the present, and even the past. He deals with quantum physics and I cannot even understand what he does, but his main principle. He seems to be saying that the time flows in both ways - from the past into the future, and from future into the past, and that in the same way that we perhaps are evolving in an "evolution", he thinks that there already exists an "us" in the final form, and the point in time which we consider as "now", is just midway from our future, and that the future ultimately shapes us towards it, and influences how the past, or "now" looks like. Or something like that. Sorry if I'm unable to make my point clear, but I managed to find an article with him, maybe he will clarify it better than me:

http://www.ocregister.com/news/futur...sics-time.html
Reward is welcome
Punishment is unwelcome

Karma is neither 'reward' nor 'punishment' but simply A CONSEQUENCE of action 'Karma' means 'action'

If we consider that the consequence of an action is 'rewarding'
then we approve of that consequence

If we consider that the consequence of an action is somehow 'punishing'
then we disapprove of that consequence

However, in both cases, the consequences are the results of our own action/actions


Actions may have unpredictable/unforeseeable consequences

THE PRESENT HAS THE POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1TcckJBGw


"I am the owner of my karma .
I inherit my karma.
I am born of my karma.
I am related to my karma.
I live supported by my karma....
Whatever karma I create,

whether good or evil,

that I shall inherit."


Buddha
Anguttara Nikaya V.57 - Upajjhatthana Sutta
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:28 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I've also had precognitive dreams. At least 3-4 that I can remember, and when they occur, it's like a full on deja vu. How would I characterize that the future already exists along with the whole free will, determinism, multi-dimensional debate?

When we operate via the personality and the spectrum of space-time, duality will always allow us to believe we have free will, ie. choices. When we transcend to the soul we allow ourselves glimpses of what it means to operate outside of space-time and yet still be part of it. When you can touch the inter-connectivity of not just human interaction, but the intertwining of the entire world, creatures, animals, vegetation and humans alike, we truly are tiny droplets in the ocean of love - but let's not forget that it's the ocean that directs where each droplet goes.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:38 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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I've also had precognitive dreams. At least 3-4 that I can remember, and when they occur, it's like a full on deja vu. How would I characterize that the future already exists along with the whole free will, determinism, multi-dimensional debate?

When we operate via the personality and the spectrum of space-time, duality will always allow us to believe we have free will, ie. choices. When we transcend to the soul we allow ourselves glimpses of what it means to operate outside of space-time and yet still be part of it. When you can touch the inter-connectivity of not just human interaction, but the intertwining of the entire world, creatures, animals, vegetation and humans alike, we truly are tiny droplets in the ocean of love - but let's not forget that it's the ocean that directs where each droplet goes.
You still have free will. There are multitudes of possible "futures" and if you have a precognitive dream, you are seeing one of the most likely paths should you continue course.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:41 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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Originally Posted by mdinaz View Post
I said that in another post concerning past lives. There are no "past lives"or future lives; all occur simultaneously as outside our dimension space and time do not exist. Since all occur simultaneously, each life affects the others - the choices you make now affect your other lives, past and future, and they you. The more you learn, the more they learn.

There was nothing about "past" or "future lives" in my post.

He also talked about the concept of time being a human concept, that cannot be fully grasped or understood. I don't pretend to know how it works.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 08:56 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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There was nothing about "past" or "future lives" in my post.

He also talked about the concept of time being a human concept, that cannot be fully grasped or understood. I don't pretend to know how it works.
Okay, forget it. Have a nice day.
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Unread 11-26-2013, 10:31 PM
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Re: The Future Already Exists

There are only two days in the year when nothing can be done

One is called 'yesterday'


The other is called 'tomorrow'


Dalai Lama
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  #22  
Unread 11-27-2013, 12:10 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Lucid said, " in the same way that we perhaps are evolving in an "evolution", he thinks that there already exists an "us" in the final form, and the point in time which we consider as "now", is just midway from our future, and that the future ultimately shapes us towards it, and influences how the past, or "now" looks like."

We can use astrology to "see" this.
Your birth chart shows what you are Now.
And it shows what you were at birth.
And it shows what you will be tomorrow and beyond.

And it is all the same birth chart.

Javier Solis, one of my favorite Mexican singers, says in one of his songs, "Siempre fui lo que soy." "I always was what I am."

We don't really change. What changes is our awareness of who and what we are, and the nature of the universe.

If we look at the quotation from Augustine, we see that past and future exist now...in the present...and that as the Dalai Lama says, there are only two days in the year when nothing can be done.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 07:42 AM
Lucid Lucid is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

We can use astrology to "see" this.
Your birth chart shows what you are Now.
And it shows what you were at birth.
And it shows what you will be tomorrow and beyond.

And it is all the same birth chart.



How can you see this in the chart? or do you mean, you can see it in transits?
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  #24  
Unread 11-27-2013, 10:57 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I mean your birth chart describes you....at any stage of life
So, you are what you were and what you will be.
At birth the chart is all potential, of course
And in middle age it's a work in progress
But you are still you, no matter the age
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  #25  
Unread 11-27-2013, 05:32 PM
Lucid Lucid is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I mean your birth chart describes you....at any stage of life
So, you are what you were and what you will be.
At birth the chart is all potential, of course
And in middle age it's a work in progress
But you are still you, no matter the age

I have a few more questions....
If time is an illusion, since we are what we will be/what we already were, and the only thing that changes is our perception, than why is our natal BIRTH chart counts as OURS? I mean, the birth chart is one point in the PAST time, so aren't we supposed to be constantly influenced by the planets as they move around? as opposed to the idea that only the outer planets are influencing on a generational level?
I've always wondered how do transits work. Say, how does a current pluto "remember"s that my natal sun was at this degree, and then would square it, after 10 years, and the general way in which it would function.


Secondly, feelings of deja-vu.... the feeling like I've already been here, seen it, done that - is that just a memory from the past strangely coinciding with the present, or the future accidentally slipping a bit of information into the present? how would that be expressed in a chart, if at all? would it have any connections to the north node in retrograde?
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