Confused about the House Systems and Saturn Return

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princemob

Well-known member
Hi everyone ! I hope you can help me understand some things about my chart. So my ascendant is at 29 degrees 57'11" in Taurus, but it is in the 12th house ? I thought it should always be in the 1st ? I have been confused about especially during my Saturn return in Sagittarius (almost done, thank God !). My Saturn is in the 7th house according to some sites, but that Sagittarius is the 8th house ? I feel like I have been dealing with both themes heavily, too. I am thoroughly confused and could use some guidance. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you so much ! :sad:
 

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Osamenor

Osamenor

Staff member
Signs and houses don't match up exactly unless you're using the whole sign system. Most charts are drawn with a quadrant system, and there are several different quadrant systems, all of which use different methods to calculate where the house cusps are. What doesn't change between systems is where the ascendant/descendant (AC/DC) and the midheaven/nadir (MC/IC) are. Those are the same in all systems, although whole sign places the MC in the ninth or eleventh house instead of the tenth in some cases.

Each sign is 30 degrees. Houses can be bigger or smaller, and often are. And in all systems except whole sign, the beginning of a house is usually not at the beginning of a sign. So there can be a sign inside a house, with planets in that house, that is different from the sign the house's cusp is in.

Your ascendant is the cusp of your first house. That makes Taurus your first sign, but because your ascendant is in the very last degree of Taurus, almost all of Taurus is in your twelfth house. Saturn is in a similar situation. Your eighth house cusp is in late Sagittarius, while Saturn is in early Sagittarius. That means that, while Saturn is in the eighth sign, it's still in the seventh house.

Your Saturn return isn't almost done, it's already over, and has been for about a year and a half. Saturn is now at 22 degrees Sagittarius. That's 19 degrees, almost two thirds of a sign, past your natal Saturn at 3 degrees Sagittarius. So whatever is going on in your life right now, it's not because of your Saturn return. However, Saturn is squaring your natal Jupiter, and will square your moon in about 4 or 5 months.
 
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princemob

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Osamenor, thank you so much for the reply. That brought a bit more clarity to things. I was under the impression that the Saturn return consisted would not be done until it exited the natal sign. So to get this right, I am now dealing with an 8th house transit ?

As for the new information you brought to me about Saturn squaring my natal Jupiter and will be squaring my Moon in the future, what are some of the possibilities surrounding this looking at my chart ? I really, really appreciate the reply !
 
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princemob

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Also, do you know when this square to my natal Jupiter started and how long it is to last as well as how long the square to my moon would last ? Thank you again !
 
Osamenor

Osamenor

Staff member
princemob said:
Osamenor, thank you so much for the reply. That brought a bit more clarity to things. I was under the impression that the Saturn return consisted would not be done until it exited the natal sign. So to get this right, I am now dealing with an 8th house transit ?
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Any planetary transit, including Saturn return, is at its strongest from when the transiting planet gets within about 2 degrees of it until it moves farther than 1 1/2 to 2 degrees away. So your Saturn return was happening when Saturn was between, approximately, 1 and 5 degrees Sagittarius. That happened three times between about a year and a half ago and roughly a year before that. Saturn crossed over your natal Saturn, got to the middle of Sagittarius, turned retrograde, and returned to your natal Saturn again as it retrograded into late Scorpio. Then Saturn turned direct and crossed your natal Saturn again.

Because you have Saturn so close to your DC, you would've felt the transit earlier, as Saturn came within orb of your DC. By the time Saturn entered Sagittarius, even before it got within 2 degrees of your natal Saturn, it was transiting your DC. And right before it got to your DC, Saturn squared your sun (28 Scorpio to 28 Leo is a perfect square!). So you would've felt what you probably chalked up to Saturn return well before you actually had your Saturn return.

Saturn is currently retrograde again. It has already squared your Jupiter, and will again during the retrograde and again after it goes direct in August.

But what's really coming up for you shortly is something even rarer and more powerful: at your upcoming solar return, there will be a total solar eclipse right on your sun. If you live in the US, it will be seen where you live (whether or not you're within the path of totality), and eclipses seen where you live affect you the most strongly, even more strongly if they happen on a sensitive point in your chart.

This is likely to be a highly transformative time for you. Whatever has happened during all these Saturn transits, consider it preparation for what's coming. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll have bad experiences. That does mean you'll have life changing experiences.

If you want some comparison, think back 19 years. That was the last time there was a solar eclipse in about the same degree as the one that's about to happen on your sun. You wouldn't have had all those same Saturn transits right then--the last time Saturn transited this part of your chart was when you were a baby and toddler--but what happened for you about 19 years ago? How did it change your life? Have you seen any similar themes recently?

What Saturn brings us during its second cycle through our chart is a chance to mature and have some say in our own destiny. For the first 29-30 years, Saturn transits activate mainly energies that were set in place before we were born. After your first Saturn return, Saturn transits start bringing up more of your own karma. How you responded the first time around may be up for renegotiation, possibly with a different outcome.

Based on where in your chart Saturn is transiting and which planets are being transited where, I would guess that one or more of these themes are up for you: partnership, others, shared resources, inheritance, friends, travel, education, long term plans. Maybe home, family, land, with your fourth house sun.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
princemob said:
Hi everyone ! I hope you can help me understand some things about my chart.
So my ascendant is at 29 degrees 57'11" in Taurus,
but it is in the 12th house ?
Click to expand...
The ascendant is 1st House not 12th :smile:
princemob said:
I thought it should always be in the 1st ?
Click to expand...
correct
princemob said:
I have been confused about especially during my Saturn return in Sagittarius (almost done, thank God !).
My Saturn is in the 7th house according to some sites, but that Sagittarius is the 8th house ?
I feel like I have been dealing with both themes heavily, too.
I am thoroughly confused and could use some guidance.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you so much ! :sad:
Click to expand...

The house location of a natal planet can change
dependent on the house system chosen
easily verify that at astro.com's Extended Chart Selection Page
there, fourteen of the more popular house systems currently in use are available options
Placidus is simply the default


to view for yourself how that works in practice
create your natal chart using Whole Sign Houses option
then compare with using the Placidus option

 by the way
there are at least twenty or thirty different house systems
or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity.
In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, represent general areas of life activity
and are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for planets.
Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable
and so
a planet in the SIGN of Aries was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect
there were no real houses as we know them today
and
artificial divisions now known as houses
were attempts by early Greeks and Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope
which during 7th and 8th centuries AD were construed
or confused
as means of dividing the birth chart.
The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites
were definite power points or areas of intense focus
but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES is unambiguous

 
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princemob

Well-known member
Thanks for all of that information JUPITERASC ! I will check out this ephemeris !

Osamenor, wow that's a lot ! The majority of the themes you've mentioned I have been dealing with, especially the partnership part for sure. I met someone who has their Saturn in Scorpio while it was retrograde in 2015 right before it went direct and it has been an intense rollercoaster to say the least. I do know that at the beginning of 2014 before Saturn entered Sagittarius, I had one of the biggest highs in my life and by the time it got to the end of the year, I was feeling quite low for some odd reason. I didn't know anything about Saturn at the time so maybe that was it.

As for the solar eclipse, that sounds incredible and terrifying at once that it falls on my birthday. These last two years have been intense and transformative and I am nowhere near the same person as before. I was born in the USA indeed and reside Minnesota. I do not believe it will be a total eclipse here, but I probably should travel just witness it !

Does anything else peculiar jump out at you about my chart ? This is so interesting to me and it is giving me clarity. I'm in the process of switching careers slightly as well. Thanks again !
 
Osamenor

Osamenor

Staff member
princemob said:
I met someone who has their Saturn in Scorpio while it was retrograde in 2015 right before it went direct and it has been an intense rollercoaster to say the least. I do know that at the beginning of 2014 before Saturn entered Sagittarius, I had one of the biggest highs in my life and by the time it got to the end of the year, I was feeling quite low for some odd reason. I didn't know anything about Saturn at the time so maybe that was it.
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High sounds much more Jupiter than Saturn. You also have Jupiter doing some things to your chart:

Everyone has a Jupiter opposition around the age of 30 (Jupiter oppositions happen in years when your age is a multiple of 6 but not a multiple of 12; Jupiter returns happen when your age is a multiple of 12). The exact timing of it varies; it might happen before you actually have your 30th birthday, and there might be second or third passes after, but it sounds like you met this person around the time of your Jupiter opposition. Jupiter entered your fifth house of short term affairs shortly before it opposed its own natal position, and now it's transiting your natal Venus, and will for a while due to changes in direction.

Assuming your ascendant really is in Taurus (it could be in Gemini if your recorded birth time is off by even a minute, because it's so late in Taurus with this birth info), Venus is your chart ruler, so it gets extra say in what's going on in your life.
 
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princemob

Well-known member
That would make more sense. I have felt more restricted compared to what started in 2013 and hit a huge climax at the beginning of 2014 dealing with my career. It's like as soon as Saturn entered Sagittarius, things felt so restrictive.

So meeting someone during a Jupiter opposition in my house of short term affairs doesn't bode well for something that we both thought would be long term, correct ? I checked my birth certificate and the time is exactly as I thought. Being ruled by Venus does make a lot of sense. I do remember around the time there was the Venus retrograde this year was when things really blew up for the worst. Looking at their chart, their rising sign is Libra. Does that mean they are Venus ruled as well ? Perhaps you could take a look at their chart ?

I am learning the most I ever have thanks to you, Osamenor ! It's all so fascinating. I am so grateful !
 
Osamenor

Osamenor

Staff member
princemob said:
That would make more sense. I have felt more restricted compared to what started in 2013 and hit a huge climax at the beginning of 2014 dealing with my career. It's like as soon as Saturn entered Sagittarius, things felt so restrictive.

So meeting someone during a Jupiter opposition in my house of short term affairs doesn't bode well for something that we both thought would be long term, correct ?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. You also had a significant Saturn transit at the same time, and it sounds like your partner did, too. When you start something new that ends up being longterm--even if you didn't necessarily plan on it being longterm when you started it--the best chance of it turning into a longterm thing is if it starts during a significant Saturn transit to a sensitive part of your birth chart.

That's true whether the new thing you start is a relationship, a hobby, a job (maybe something you took just to pay the bills that ends up being your new career), a move (maybe you just wanted to check this new city out for a bit and return home in a year or two, but you ended up living there the rest of your life), or anything else. Even if it starts as a fifth house thing, it could end up more serious.

Fifth house indicates things you do just because you enjoy them. It's linked with short term affairs because it conjures up the image of a relationship just for pleasure, no contract involved, no marriage, not necessarily any real commitment. At least, not in the beginning. That doesn't mean that what starts out as a fifth house affair cannot become more serious and committed. Serious relationships typically start as something for fun, it's just that both parties decide they want to continue having that particular kind of fun with each other over the long term.

With love matters, it usually takes Jupiter to get you interested and Saturn to get you committed. If they're both acting at the same time, that's when you get both interested and committed.

That's not to say it's guaranteed your relationship will last forever. Astrologically, the potential is there, but only time will tell.

princemob said:
I checked my birth certificate and the time is exactly as I thought. Being ruled by Venus does make a lot of sense. I do remember around the time there was the Venus retrograde this year was when things really blew up for the worst.
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But how do you know the time on your birth certificate is your actual moment of birth? Someone's watch could have been a minute off.

It does sound like Venus as your chart ruler is correct. There are other ways to determine the correct rising sign--in cases like yours, with the ascendant at the cusp and the possibilities narrowed down to two, astrologers who know that part of astrology very well can almost always figure it out based on your physical appearance. It's especially easy when you don't have any planets on your AC or in your first house, since planets there can change how your AC manifests in your looks. Face shape, body shape, which body parts are most prominent, all correlate with rising sign. But I am not expert enough to do that.

princemob said:
Looking at their chart, their rising sign is Libra. Does that mean they are Venus ruled as well ? Perhaps you could take a look at their chart ?
Click to expand...
If they have Libra rising, they do indeed have a Venus ruled chart. But I don't read charts for people who don't ask me themselves. I don't even have the time and energy to do a comprehensive reading for everyone who asks. So I decline.
 
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princemob

Well-known member
Wow that makes sense. I had broken things off with someone about 3 weeks before "accidentally" meeting my partner (not exactly sure what to call them at this stage) and was not looking for anything serious, but rather just meeting people so I didn't feel stuck in a hole. But I guess the universe had a different plan.

I see your point about not being 100% about the birth time, now. Thank you so much for your help on this ! I feel a lot clearer about my chart now :biggrin:
 
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princemob

Well-known member
I am just now, for some reason, curious and nervous about this solar eclipse on my birthday and what it could possibly mean. If it has anything to do with what I have been dealing with during this Saturn transit, perhaps those things would be fixed or "eclipsed" out if they were not working ?
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
princemob said:
I am just now, for some reason, curious and nervous
about this solar eclipse on my birthday
and what it could possibly mean.
If it has anything to do with what I have been dealing with during this Saturn transit
perhaps those things would be fixed or "eclipsed" out if they were not working ?
Click to expand...
eclipses repeat in regular cycles :smile:
and for clues regarding possible events
check back to its previous occurrence
21 August 2017 eclipse on REGULUS at 29 Leo
last occurred August 1998
 
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