Sociopathy in charts.

Has anyone ever looked at the chart of a sociopath?

This is a chart of a person who was confined to an asylum for three years. (Uranus in 12th house?) Her birth time is estimated and is not exact, so the chart could be off.

The square between Pluto and the Scorpio sun is kind of obvious. Venus in Libra trine the Gemini moon in the 11th seemed odd, since that should make a person sociable and charming. Then I remembered sociopaths are good at appearing charming and sweet.

A Baptist fundamentalist, the person used religion against her victims (ie, using "they committed a sin" as an excuse to abuse her children). That is not surprising, with Saturn conjunct sun (rigid personality) and Jupiter in Virgo opposing Mars in Pisces---one astrology text I have says negative Jupiter-Mars conflicts can show up in those who use religion and beliefs to harm others.

Also Leo ASC square Neptune in Scorpio---the person has delusions of herself as more powerful and better than others, a real god complex, one who doesn't have to follow the rules because she is special and above others.

Interestingly, one of her worst victims, a child, has her ASC zero degrees conjunct with this person's sun, something usually considered "fortunate."

What does everyone else see? Has anyone else looked at the chart of a sociopath? What are the usual markers?

I'm sure lots of people were born with some of these aspects, like Scorpio sun square Pluto, but not all of them are sociopathic. What makes the difference between a person like the one here, and a normal one with similar aspects?

scorpio/gemini sun and moon combos usually make for pretty f-ed up people. obsessive thoughts, highly intelligent, manipulative... leo ascendant square neptune would make all of that obsessive thought even worse because it'd mostly be dellusions but the leo ascendent would give too much pride to admit they were wrong

I don't ascribe to Sociopathy, or Psychopathy, or any other mental disorder being attributable to any astrological influence. I think this is a waste of time and a disservice to the understanding of Astrology.

These conditions are usually related to social and familial conditioning. Consciouslessness. Is there anybody here who really wants to attribute consciouslessness to a sign or planet or house position?

Free Will is the result of these problems, not astrological influences.

What an odd couple days I've had reading here! First, I see PiercetheVale's post with the "psychopath test," saying that if you get the test correct, you must be one. The answer came to me immediately, which turned out to be correct...which I posted, laughing, adding that I can't even kill most bugs, and that all my Scorpio planets (detective-type inclinations?) must be why this came to me so easily...which didn't seem to go over well. (Sorry if I offended in some way!) And if I'm misinterpreting the Andy emoticon, please forgive as well.

THEN, this morning...I see this post above, with the chart added, about a gal who committed murder and spent time in a psych ward. This chart is virtually *identical* to my own! (Birth info: 11/16/56, 10:47 PM, South Haven, MI) House cusps only off by a degree or two, and my Moon is at 10 Taurus rather than in Gemini -- other than that, it's identical. I then read the perspectives of how certain factors in their chart could lend themselves to psychopathology. I repeat: Strange days.

I may have Leo rising, with Neppie squaring it from the IC; in fact they're involved in a fixed grand cross (if you include Chiron as valid)...but I tend to be the first to see myself as responsible for any challenges arising with others, rather than the other way around. I consider myself to be eminently *bustable* on my issues, at least when offered from love. I don't do *victim* mentality. I've been on a lifelong spiritual path and am a seriously-hardcore pacifist; all my Scorpy-planets-square-Pluto issues run *inwardly* rather than outwardly....

To answer the question...if I might, from this interesting point of view...*grin*...I'd have to say that it's soul age and level of conscious self-awareness that differentiates how a person lives their chart. And agreeing with MaeMae somewhat, here, that determining whether someone has the *capacity* for violence isn't discernible from a chart alone...and that unless you know someone very well, their level of soulgrowth attainment isn't easy to gauge, if at all...

Dear Shadowflash:

I think you are right and everything you just stated gives me much to ponder and sound wisdom to live by. It sounds like you have a sweet personality; Scorpios or those with scorpio influences are much maligned. (I have a scorp rising) However I will say this as far as Im concerned because I'm guilty of the same I guess you could call it curiosity (?). For example I'll see threads such as 'Homosexual tendencies' in a natal chart or who may be capable of suicide or drug addiction, etc. and I know that sometimes there may be a grain of truth to how specific sign/house/aspect can manifest. I think this is why I seem to have so much trouble interpreting birth charts; everything is subjective. (What does one say to someone who shares a b-day with Manson, Gacy, or Bundy?)

Blessings, Serafin5

Thanks for your kind words, serafin5, and blessings back!

Oh yes...totally understand what you mean and, even though I expressed the conclusion I did, it's not like I've never found myself wondering along the same lines -- trying to seek out astrological correlaries for human behaviors and inclinations... I definitely did not mean to imply that I hold any judgment toward doing so! I think we *all* feel such deep need to understand ourselves and one another...ya know? I think it's pretty cool, this opportunity that arose, to illustrate how two *extremely similar* charts can manifest differently.

And actually, to be fair......while I thank you for your impression that I'm "sweet," and I'll acknowledge others have said so...my chart definitely *does* hold great potential for some, er, notable darkness, without a doubt! My Vedic chart is apparently even moreso. A well-known Vedic astrologer told me she'd only seen this particular combination of *yogas* or aspects in four other charts in her career; two were hard-core needle druggies, one was in prison for life and the other was a spiritual teacher. LOL So, again we're speaking of *potentials* and choices and, in my humble opinion, levels of soulgrowth under one's belt!

Love to everyone!

The question is a complicated one, because there are limits to what a birth chart shows us. It doesn't show whether a person is born rich or poor, to a religious or secular familiy, or to an ethnic minority or majority. These things have a lot to do with how a person handles the stresses with which s/he is born.

I wouldn't have guessed this was the chart of a sociopath, but I could say that this individual experiences a lot of internal stress.

1. Moon (emotions, feelings) making an exact square to Mars (aggression).
2. Uranus (sudden change, can be violent) opposing Black Moon Lilith/Chiron/DC. They're in the 6th but the birth time appears rounded. Note that the 7th is the "house of open enemies."
3. Ruler of the 5th house (of children) Jupiter squaring moon; Saturn on the cusp of the 5th house.
4. Pluto square Saturn, Mercury and sun. Pluto square Saturn can give a cruel streak. People with sun square Pluto can get embroiled in domination dynamics. With Mercury involved, this person could be a devastating critic--and then Mercury also rules the hands.

Afflictions involving 4th house planets can indicate that the invidual had a difficult early home life/childhood herself.

Then sometimes the easier parts of the chart show how and where the person releases all their pent-up energy. I think this is especially true with the sextile, which has more energy and excitement than the trine. Cf. Mercury-Saturn sextile Lilith and Chiron.

I don't find charts of sociopaths usually to be very entertaining. I did once look at Charles Manson's chart--Most of his planets were involved in a huge grand cross (grand square.) I don't think he needed to go out and murder people, but he surely had massive amounts of inner stress to dispel.

Hi Waybread! You're so right, and I appreciate your comments...and would like to add some feedback from the areas of common ground my chart holds with the one posted...

Thanks be to all that's holy, my Moon isn't square my Mars...but it IS opposite Neptune (widely) conjunct my IC, square Uranus and square Chiron/Lilith/Desc., angularly, making up my fixed grand cross. (So your #2 applies.) And my Moon rules my 12th house, placed in the 10, so...ACK. My cross may not be comprised of "most" of my planets, but I could tell you about some massive inner tension needing released. OMG.

Your #4 and little note below pertains and is certainly me all over, with bells on. As a child I had the wickedest tongue I've ever heard, and that includes all human beings I've known up until this moment. LOL I'm the only child of a single mother, and was raised by herself and her 7 older siblings who were all hardcore Victorian Fundamentalists; I held less than zero respect for "external authority" on any level, and made their lives a living hell. And they, mine.

An interesting note on Mercury ruling hands...this could also come from my Mercury/Mars trine, and/or perhaps Mars' sextile to Jupiter, but I type about 120 WPM. Anything that needs fast fingers, call me. So I'm wondering if maybe this is *one eeny-weeny outlet* for all that inner pressure...? LOL

Also am currently working to heal stage 3C endometrial cancer, if my posts on that subject some time ago weren't noted.

Thanks again!

Hey, thanks for the feedback! And best wishes for your healing process.

Most welcome, and thank you for your kind wishes.

And...er...a little correction here, after re-reading my post above: When speculating around the causes of fast fingers I'd said "Mars' sextile to Jupiter," when I meant, Mercury's sextile to Jupiter. Woopsie.

MaeMae said:

I don't ascribe to Sociopathy, or Psychopathy, or any other mental disorder being attributable to any astrological influence. I think this is a waste of time and a disservice to the understanding of Astrology.

These conditions are usually related to social and familial conditioning. Consciouslessness. Is there anybody here who really wants to attribute consciouslessness to a sign or planet or house position?

Free Will is the result of these problems, not astrological influences.

Click to expand...

I totally agree

Zodiac in degrees 0.00 Placidus Orb:0
Sun Scorpio 25.01 Ascendant Taurus 21.25
Moon Libra 13.11 II Gemini 17.42
Mercury Scorpio 6.43 III Cancer 8.30
Venus Sagittarius 17.22 IV Cancer 29.29
Mars Libra 25.57 V Leo 25.18
Jupiter Aries 21.03 R VI Libra 2.25
Saturn Sagittarius 20.20 VII Scorpio 21.25
Uranus Sagittarius 25.04 VIII Sagittarius 17.42
Neptune Capricorn 6.14 IX Capricorn 8.30
Pluto Scorpio 10.31 Midheaven Capricorn 29.29
Lilith Leo 10.06 XI Aquarius 25.18
Asc node Aries 0.53 XII Aries 2.25


Planet Aspect Planet Orb/Value
Sun Opposition Ascendant 3.36 -120
Moon Opposition Jupiter 7.52 -35
Mercury Sextile Neptune 0.29 176
Mercury Conjunction Pluto 3.48 335
Venus Trine Jupiter 3.41 65
Venus Conjunction Saturn 2.58 309
Venus Conjunction Uranus 7.42 92
Mars Opposition Jupiter 4.53 -70
Mars Sextile Uranus 0.53 98
Mars Square Midheaven 3.32 -17
Jupiter Trine Saturn 0.43 82
Jupiter Trine Uranus 4.01 40
Saturn Conjunction Uranus 4.43 148
1345 -242 1103


Could some PLEASE tell me if this person could possibly be a sociopath

A lot certainly, probably does 'have' to depend on the 'level' of a chart.

However, if I were to get the chart of someone like this 'blind' I would probably be hoping thart their particular 'level' of awareness, consciousness or whatever, was reasonably high.

I think hard Moon/Mars aspects can be under-estimated and this one is very close - if there is a lot of exposure to anger and abuse at a tender age or stage of development, then I do wonder about the impact of this later on for the native.

Uranus on the Ascendant may mean that the individual concerned may feel that they are a law unto themselves, beyond the rules that keep ordinary mortals in their place. In other words there may be a kind of an arrogance at work.

That Sun square Mars is made a tougher proposition too by the fact that it doen't only square the Sun, but Saturn and Mercury too, and Pluto falls on the midpoint of Sun and Saturn, and Mercury appears to be on the midpoint here too.

It is a curious thing this, that the chart comes before the individual may have a chance to experience any kind of childhood or history, 'happy,'abusive, indifferent or not, but ther chances of avoiding unpleasantlife experiences and developing maybe less-than fortunate persoanl qualities in turn may be easier for some than others, depending on the chart.

I see a lot of mothers turning to forums like this because they may discove rthat the much-beloved offspring had 'ended up' with something like a Moon square Saturn, another aspect that often seems to 'turn up' in certain rogues's galleries (along with Moon square Mars - Liz Greene's book shows this in Myra Hindley's chart for example).

It is a good question, how much of a difference the level of awarenesson the part of a parentmay guide a child into developing a 'higher' level fawareness or not, in order to avoid the less-desirable manifestations of what the medievalists so graphically and lugubriously called 'afflictions' in the chart.

We know of course that there are dozens of Sun-square Pluto natives and others with Moon/Mars, Moon/Saturn afflictions who grow up manging notto murder anyone, or turning to a life of crime and evil.

according to vehlow an ephasized moon is often seen in sociopaths or other charts. mars moon are the planets above the horizon. a martian woman, and here in add her mars is superweak in pisces (and in 8). weak mars shows sometimes a strange taste in sexual matters. and her mars is ruler of her scorpion stellium. her whole chart points to mars too.

ruler 8 is also ruler 9. mars from 9 (and 4) in 8.
according to vehlow he differences between these two houses, black magic (8) and white magic (9). Vehlow also shows some charts from mass murders etc., and surprisingly they had planets in exaltation sign or own sign (well they got caught very late).

You have to consider that these people are the perpetrators. Lion and scorpion are surely not victims.

but so far I couldn´t, wouldn´t say that this woman is what you described.. I think it is strange that her moon from 12 is in 11.

Momma's Kumquat said:

scorpio/gemini sun and moon combos usually make for pretty f-ed up people. obsessive thoughts, highly intelligent, manipulative... leo ascendant square neptune would make all of that obsessive thought even worse because it'd mostly be dellusions but the leo ascendent would give too much pride to admit they were wrong

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that's a pretty *sweeping statement* here and am sure not all sun/moon are *f-ed*!!

alexisann, you should post the chart rather than data, which is meaningless to us visually orientated

I'm with Tee-jay and maemae, I don't think there are black/white aspects that definately state this. I think it's childhood and upbringing conditions or even soceity influences.

I think there is always a *postive and negative* way all aspects can be expressed and childhood circumstances may have influences on how the adult version is formed and expressed.

Hello.

I haven't done mutch research about this topic, but one i have noticed that many serial killers (that were sociapatic for sure) had the ruler of 2nd house (house of value system) very weak.
Serial killers are 'active sociapatic.

Some sociopatics can be 'normal' persons without killing, however they will never regreat their actions.

Fragoso

MaeMae said:

I don't ascribe to Sociopathy, or Psychopathy, or any other mental disorder being attributable to any astrological influence. I think this is a waste of time and a disservice to the understanding of Astrology.

These conditions are usually related to social and familial conditioning. Consciouslessness. Is there anybody here who really wants to attribute consciouslessness to a sign or planet or house position?

Free Will is the result of these problems, not astrological influences.

Click to expand...

Thank you MaeMae, I was just about to ask if sociopathy, or other psychological issues are an issue of nature vs. nurture? What about all the other people that just happened to be born at more or less with the same astrological chart, not to mention all the people that may've been born that same day, hour, location? This has always been an area of astrology that Im interested in, if there are markers for certain behaviors, attitudes, life-styles, etc.?

Would love any feedback on this as I am sincerely perplexed.
Thanks astrologers.

Serafin5

ooops; sorry I just noticed that ive already posted and more or less asked the same question. Sorry.....

serafin5 said:

Thank you MaeMae, I was just about to ask if sociopathy, or other psychological issues are an issue of nature vs. nurture? What about all the other people that just happened to be born at more or less with the same astrological chart, not to mention all the people that may've been born that same day, hour, location? This has always been an area of astrology that Im interested in, if there are markers for certain behaviors, attitudes, life-styles, etc.?

Would love any feedback on this as I am sincerely perplexed.
Thanks astrologers. [did you read my post 15??]

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I think 'markers' can only be general ones, and others enviornment/family triggered..

Miss Kitten said:

Has anyone ever looked at the chart of a sociopath?

This is a chart of a person who was confined to an asylum for three years. (Uranus in 12th house?) Her birth time is estimated and is not exact, so the chart could be off.

The square between Pluto and the Scorpio sun is kind of obvious. Venus in Libra trine the Gemini moon in the 11th seemed odd, since that should make a person sociable and charming. Then I remembered sociopaths are good at appearing charming and sweet.

A Baptist fundamentalist, the person used religion against her victims (ie, using "they committed a sin" as an excuse to abuse her children). That is not surprising, with Saturn conjunct sun (rigid personality) and Jupiter in Virgo opposing Mars in Pisces---one astrology text I have says negative Jupiter-Mars conflicts can show up in those who use religion and beliefs to harm others.

Also Leo ASC square Neptune in Scorpio---the person has delusions of herself as more powerful and better than others, a real god complex, one who doesn't have to follow the rules because she is special and above others.

Interestingly, one of her worst victims, a child, has her ASC zero degrees conjunct with this person's sun, something usually considered "fortunate."

What does everyone else see? Has anyone else looked at the chart of a sociopath? What are the usual markers?

I'm sure lots of people were born with some of these aspects, like Scorpio sun square Pluto, but not all of them are sociopathic. What makes the difference between a person like the one here, and a normal one with similar aspects?

Click to expand...

Been on this planet almost 6 decades. Have lived on 3 continents. Met all kinds of people from all over the world. But I have never been more terrified of anyone than an 80 y.o. elderly. After 3 months of being around her, I carefully and slowly extracted myself from this relationship. She was beginning to exhibit an undercurrent of aggression towards me. I once caught her glaring at me as if I was a fly caught on her web and desired to do me harm. I don't even think that she was aware she was doing it. The food she gave me like cake and other deserts started having this bitter mediciney taste. I began throwing them away without telling her when my heart raced after eating a lemon meringue she gave me. After, I told her the end of relationship is final she asks if I could at least bring my dog to visit her. The hair on the back of my neck raised. I said NO in no uncertain terms. . I have now secured my mailbox so she can't get to it. And am putting security cameras up on my property. I sense instense psychopathic rage in her that she carefully keeps contained. A friend told me one of her dogs died from "parvo" 6 days ago....

The woman's natal chart has 29 degrees aries mars squaring 6 degrees leo pluto conjunction with 1 degree leo jupiter. Her 11 degrees virgo moon, 29 degrees leo venus and 28 leo chiron square her 7 degrees gemini uranus. Her 20 degrees gemini saturn squares her moon and her 29 degrees virgo neptune. Her aries mars inconjuncts at 0 degrees her virgo neptune. Her sun is 14 degrees cancer sextiling her virgo moon. Her mercury at 3 degrees cancer square her 29 degrees virgo neptune. As I write this very day, transiting pluto 0 degrees aquarius is exactly squaring her natal mars that squares her natal pluto/jupiter conjunction, inconjunct neptune. I am guessing her "relief valve" in mars inconjunct neptune (the food she gave me tastef mediciny and made my heart race). Her dog died from "parvo" the day sun opposed her pluto and mars opposed her sun. Am going through malefic celestial aspecting phase from both pluto and neptune myself, as you can tell. Encounter with DANGER and BLOCKED from doing anything about due to UNCERTAINTY of the exactitude and verifiability of these feelings and intuitions. For they are, in the end, UNPROVABLE feelings and intuitions. But I AM TERRIFIED OF THIS WOMAN due to the neptunian line of attack. Pluto you can fight. Neptune you can't.

No doubt my sun+mars conjunction making a tight synastric square to her natal pluto+jupiter conjunction that squares her natal mars is behind my feeling like her "direct target". Her moon conjoining my natal pluto+uranus conjunction lends to her obsession with me. Transiting moon sitting at 0 degrees conjunction to my natal chiron+saturn+venus 25 degrees pisces stellium opposite my moon 25 degrees virgo IS NOT HELPING CLEAR THINGS OR CRYSTALIZING THINGS as "reality".

My "obsession" with her is only because she is currently casting "her web" on any friends or acquaintances I know - befriending them . In turn - they ask me things "on her behalf" or her name enters into the conversation where prior she did not know these people. How do I free myself from her?

By the way, there is a difference between sociopath and psychopath, the former being made, not born (in the latter case it is innate, the former, more likely caused by trauma and unfortunate life events).

There is a neurologist who discovered that he had the brain of a psychopath. His upbringing was fortunate, so that he did not have traumas that could have pushed him into becoming the next Hannibál Lector. His name is Jim Fallon, and his chart could be tracked down if you want to know more.