Fate and freewill in astrology

jollyzal said:

I like to hear motivational speechers

and

most of them tell you that you have a choice.

And you have.

You may be born in not the greatest of circumstances
(assets/placements in natal chart)
but you're still capable
of doing whatever you want to do in life.

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jollyzal said:

I also have a friend
that knows a ton about astrology
and he's told me that

there's always possibility

to change what we call "fate".

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JUPITERASC said:

Being CAPABLE
does not necessarily
provide the MEANS of exercising that CAPABILITY

i.e.
for example
an individual born in Syria has not the means to earn a living
because their home has been destroyed by bombing
and their workplace has been destroyed by bombing
and so
that individual may be CAPABLE and have many skills
and yet remains unemployed

a POSSIBILITY is not a CERTAINTY

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jollyzal said:

But possibility is possibility lol.

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jollyzal said:

As long as there's a slight possibility then it's completely worth the shot.

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not necessarily
for example
there is a slight possibility that I may be the next President

jollyzal said:

Even in Syria you have a very slight possibility of getting out of there.

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jollyzal said:

With that attitude you will not get anything in life
because you will think that if you're not gonna get anything then why try?

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jollyzal said:

There are millionaires who started in a very poor environment.
They could have thought just like you and not get anything and not try.

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jollyzal said:

My father came from a really poor environment
and he's a succesful writer mind you.

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JUPITERASC said:

That is exactly my comment you repeated back to me
i.e.
a POSSIBILITY is not a CERTAINTY

not necessarily
for example
there is a slight possibility that I may be the next President

Quite
a VERY SLIGHT possibility

On the contrary
that's a misleading interpretation of my comments

since you so easily misinterpret my comments
and
to be completely clear then:

a POSSIBILITY is not a CERTAINTY

and furthermore
a VERY SLIGHT POSSIBILITY is nowhere near a CERTAINTY

however IF one wishes to act on a very slight possibility
then by all means do so
it's a matter of personal choice


Those millionaires succeeded due to hard work
not betting on VERY SLIGHT POSSIBILITIES


One wonders as to how many of your father's peers
who were friends with your father in the same neighbourhood
and grew up in that really poor environment with your father
are as successful today as your father is

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jollyzal said:

Zero. None

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So, of all those friends who grew up with your father in that poor environment
Zero/None visit your father and Zero/None remain close friends with your father
your father left them all in that poor environment

jollyzal said:

besides my father could get out of there because he did hard work.

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jollyzal said:

People who succeed due to hard work HAVE to bet on slight possibilities.

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JUPITERASC said:

So, of all those friends who grew up with your father in that poor environment
Zero/None visit your father and Zero/None remain close friends with your father
your father left them all in that poor environment

Good for your father

nevertheless
that does not mean the other people in that poor environment
who grew up with your father
did not work hard

your father worked hard and is successful

AND
your father's peers also worked hard in the same environment but did not become successful

and so
clearly

do work hard
but do not EXPECT success as an INEVITABLE consequence

People who ONLY bet on SLIGHT POSSIBILITIES
without doing any hard work
are simply gamblers

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katydid said:

Great explanation by Dane Rudhyar:

http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/starvictim.shtml




Must You Be The Victim Of Your Stars?


Do we really have "free" will, "free" choice? What provides the data for our value judgments on which crucial decisions — free choices — are based? Beyond lies the still deeper problem: When a person says, "I, Mr. So-and-So, am making this decision," what within him leads to the choice?


….

The great 16th Century occultist Paracelsus said, "Whatever the stars can do we can do ourselves, because the wisdom which we obtain from God overpower the heavens and rules over the stars . . . Man's soul is made up of the same elements as the stars; but as the wisdom of the Supreme guides the motions of the stars, so the reason of man rules the influences which rotate and circulate in his soul." …..


In the end the only true free will is the will to destiny and the really free decisions are those which are not "made" because they are so evident and necessary they might be said to make themselves. The freedom we have is to choose to be free and to remain so. We are born at a definite place and time in the vast environment of our solar system and the total galaxy. This place-time equation, of which the birth chart is the symbol or signature, shows what the human being potentially is as a whole, person. What would be the sense, of fighting destiny, willing to be what one is not?

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jollyzal said:

I never said without hard work.

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jollyzal said:

My uncle never even got past primary school because he didn't care.

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keep in mind that if it was such a poor environment
there may have been no primary school

jollyzal said:

Most people my dad met during childhood are probably dead,
some of his friends were really poor
and none of them really worked hard.

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jollyzal said:

My uncle is smarter and more talented than my father
(even my dad said that)
but he was too lazy to do anything in life.

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jollyzal said:

We once visited the place where my dad lived
and he still can recognize people from 20-30 years ago who haven't done anything and are still there.

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jollyzal said:

My dad had to wait around 20 years to get his first book published.
It's hard work.
I believe in hard work.

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jollyzal said:

And my 10th house Saturn certainly makes me believe in that.

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jollyzal said:

Placements in astrological charts are nowadays read in a more psychological way (modern astrology)

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jollyzal said:

but they also define circumstances and situations,
meaning that a lot of circumstances are caused by ourselves and our personalities.

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jollyzal said:

Meaning that you will never ever be successful
unless
you have the attitude of someone who is successful.

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That is easily disproved

JUPITERASC said:

Thanks for clarifying that hard work is important

keep in mind that if it was such a poor environment
there may have been no primary school


If most people your dad met during childhood are "probably dead"
then their environment was tough to say the least

Unfair to say that NONE of your fathers friends "really worked hard" if there were no opportunities except writing
few are talented writers


If your uncle is smarter and more talented than your father
but got nowhere in life
then that's not necessarily due to laziness

Neither you nor your father are being fair
in criticising your fathers childhood peers
for "not doing anything"
when their ENVIRONMENT is so deprived


and also clearly
since your father seems to have been the only successful person from there in decades
it was a horrendously deprived place to survive
so at least extend them sympathy
and recognise that you are fortunate your father is a gifted writer

"Waiting around for 20 years to get a book published" is not hard work
in fact
your father is fortunate to have the gift of writing successful books
clearly it is a rare gift
and not fair to criticise your fathers childhood friends
or accuse them of being lazy

10th house Saturn in what sign?

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katydid said:

I totally believe in free will.
The chart describes tendencies and circumstances.
But it does not foretell with certainty all of the natives outcomes.

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JUPITERASC said:

not always
We have a Traditional astrology board

Not all circumstances are caused by ourselves
for example
Civilians in Syria do not deliberately drop bombs from the skies to daily destroy their surroundings

That is easily disproved
Many are born into wealth, or relative wealth
and being born into a wealthy family does not require a successful attitude at the time of conception

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jollyzal said:

In Taurus and I also have Mars in Scorpio if that means anything.
And I know my uncle personally and he knows he did the bad thing.
My uncle once said that he wasted his life by not going to school.
He used to get a pair of ice cubes and put them around his throat
just so he'd catch a cold and have an excuse to not go to school the next day.
That's working hard against not going to school.

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That's normal behavior for a kid
by the way, those ice cubes must have been special, usually ice cubes melt within moments

jollyzal said:

My dad was truly lucky to be born with the talent of writing,
and he's a professor in an university (besides writing books and for television)
and he said not many of his students are actually talented
although he likes to not to tell them that obviously.

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jollyzal said:

I said "many of the situations" not all obviously.
What I meant is that you can exclude all of the cases were wealth is pretty much given to you by birth. I said "most", not "all".

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Yet you did not EXCLUDE "the cases where wealth is pretty much given at birth"
Important to be clear

JUPITERASC said:

That's normal behavior for a kid
by the way, those ice cubes must have been special, usually ice cubes melt within moments

so your dad misleads his students by telling them they are talented when they are not
in any event
keep in mind that unusual talent is rare

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jollyzal said:

My father doesn't tell them they're talented
but he doesn't tell them they're talented either,
whether they actually are or not.

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Thanks for clarifying
to be fair to the students
your father is human and prone to errors of judgement
just as we all are
and your father may be completely wrong regarding what talent is or is not

jollyzal said:

And maybe that behaviour was normal at the time
but he kept doing that sort of stuff the rest of his life.

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