LGBTQ - does astrology reflect todays gender roles?

Inline: You might be interested in this discussion with Chris Brennan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh5VWQu6p_k. At hour 1:02 to 1:06 he discusses finding evidence of how Ptolemy uses astrology to determine sexual orientation.

Moon Dance

Moondancing said:

You might be interested in this discussion with Chris Brennan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh5VWQu6p_k.

At hour 1:02 to 1:06 he discusses finding evidence of how Ptolemy uses astrology to determine sexual orientation.

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Thanks, i loved listening to Chris...so bright, and not really of this world.

...some of the interesting points he brings up about sexual orientation measured astrologically in Greco/Roman times (Hellenistic astrology):

- Sexuality and orientation could be measured on a sliding scale - measured as balance vs. extreme
- Balance was achieved by having an equal measure of feminine planets in feminine signs and masculine planets in masculine signs in ones chart.
- Extreme was an overdose of masculine emphasis or feminine emphasis (EDIT to ADD) of masculine planets in feminine signs and feminine planets in masculine signs in ones chart.
- a debilitated Saturn was necessary as well.

Inline said:

....trying to understand the question of LGBTQ awakening now....

....using event charts...around the time of the question... to see what answers might be available - because the astrological material available about LGBTQ was lacking - could be informative?

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...some recent articles about sexual orientation, LGBTQ in astrology, masculine & feminine planets and signs etc.:

https://www.intomore.com/culture/third-gender-and-homosexuality-in-astrology

http://astrologeramlan.blogspot.com/2011/12/masculine-and-feminine-planets.html

...another AW thread asking about gender in astrology:

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93813

"Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, so where are the rest of us from? Astrology, thankfully, embraces people of all sexual orientations and sexes and has assigned planets Uranus, Saturn, and Mercury to queer folk."

https://www.intomore.com/culture/third-gender-and-homosexuality-in-astrology

I was intrigued to see Saturn on that list. Mercury and Uranus, no surprise. Mercury changes gender even in traditional astrology: can be feminine or masculine, can be diurnal or nocturnal, depending on whether it's rising before the sun or setting after the sun. Uranus is considered the higher, bigger vibration of Mercury. But Saturn, that was a surprise.

Thinking about it, though, Saturn does seem to have both yin and yang qualities.

Osamenor said:

I was intrigued to see Saturn on that list......

Thinking about it, though, Saturn does seem to have both yin and yang qualities.

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....the idea of a yin / yang quality to Saturn might be understood when asking, why is Mars exalted in Capricorn but Saturn in Aries is in fall, for example?

...coinciding with the worldwide LGBTQ push is the gender neutrality movement. This astrological quote about the gender neutrality is interesting:

"Saturn, the planet of Karmic justice, patience, and hard work, represents female eunuchs and transmen. Mercury, the benefic planet that acts as the intermediary between all sorts of dual forces such as dark and light, moist and dry, and hot and cold, symbolizes male eunuchs and transwomen. In other words, Saturn is a “Female but acts like a man,” and mercury is a “Male who acts like a woman.”

Mythologically, both Saturn and Mercury are gods. Legend has it that Saturn (Shani), a “lesbian,” married a woman named Sangya. However, Saturn, being a god, was able to change form according to will and occasion and could conjure up male sex organs during intercourse.

Mercury (Budha) married Ila, the Indian androgyne god who was the forerunner of the Lunar Dynasty in India. Ila was born a woman but was later cursed that he’d have to switch gender every month. One theory states Mercury and Ila took turns being the wife or the husband in their marriage."

"Are Venus and Mars as male/female archetypes outdated? We live in a time of gender equality....where we are not bound by archaic gender roles...'does astrology reflect todays gender roles'?

.....so the thread's original question appears to be answered. Yes, astrology does reflect todays LGBTQ gender roles, and it always has...

...research revealed that as early as Greco/Roman times (150BC) Hellenistic astrologers described Saturn as representing female eunuchs and trans-men...and Mercury acting as the intermediary between dual forces was recognised as symbolizing male eunuchs and trans-women...so, Saturn was a “Female but acts like a man,” and Mercury was a “Male who acts like a woman.”

....and now the research begins....

For example, what does natal Mars conjunct Saturn suggest or natal Mercury conjunct Saturn....fun!

Inline said:

....the idea of a yin / yang quality to Saturn might be understood when asking, why is Mars exalted in Capricorn but Saturn in Aries is in fall, for example?

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But then, why is the Moon in fall in Capricorn and detriment in Scorpio? Those are yin signs. Earth and water. And why is Venus, also a thoroughly yin planet, in fall in Scorpio and detriment in Virgo? But domiciled in the yang sign of Libra?

It's not that simple.

Astrology is largely an historical artifact. Unless someone is doing path-breaking new research, we mostly deal with astrology handed down to us from times when gender and social class rules were clearly and rigidly defined.

For example, the Hellenistic astrologers thought that a strong/afflicted Venus in a chart would make a man "effeminate." It was considered a stigma to be the child of a slave or to marry a slave, no matter how high one rose in life.

Until the past few decades modern astrology had a signature for gay men: Uranus square Mars. Then it was noted that many heterosexual men also have Uranus square Mars, and many gay men do not. I know one lesbian with Venus square Uranus but I don't that this signature works any more reliably.

Ironically during the 19th/early 20th century, and perhaps earlier, Euro women formed intense friendships with other women, and Euro men formed intense friendships with other men to the point that they wrote love letters to one another. (Which have been preserved.) It isn't clear if these attachments were consummated sexually, but falling deeply in love with someone of the same sex seems not to have raised many eyebrows; notably if these people married someone of the opposite sex.

A well-known example was Eleanor Roosevelt's exchange of love letters with her long-time "friend" Lorena Hickok. https://people.com/books/new-biography-explores-eleanor-roosevelts-romance-with-a-woman/

Gender has always been a fluid topic so far as I can determine. We could go on with some past societies' traditions of creating eunuchs as palace guards or contra-tenors (male sopranos.)

Today is just our most recent iteration. Astrology will catch up eventually.

We cannot tell from a horoscope, without additional collateral information, whether the person is male or female.

In keeping with this you never know theme, I recently did readings for two different people who were born on the same day. Different rising signs, different house placements, moon at a different degree of the same sign, but otherwise, they have the same chart. One of them identifies as queer/non-binary, and told me this over the course of the reading. The other (as far as I know) identifies as cisgender and straight (this person is in a heterosexual marriage, goes by the expected gender pronouns, and never told me they identify as anything else).

I had three high school classmates born the same day as me. One of them came out as gay right before graduation (and his friends had figured that out before he officially came out). As far as I know, none of the others are. I lost track of one of the other same birthday classmates, but have been in touch on Facebook with the remaining one, and we were both in long term (hetero) relationships during the same time frame.

I also know of a pair of adult identical twins. One is a lesbian in a long term relationship. The other one is in a long term marriage to a man.

Astrologer Alice Portman says that working with dwad (duad) charts can detect differences between twins born close to the same time. http://aliceportman.com/duads-duad-charts-show-the-differences-between-twins/

The number of LGBTQ people on the rise in the past decade is from awareness, openness and tolerance; there's nothing in the water or I don't believe related to astrology, explains the rising percentage of society who are GRSM (Gender, Romantic and Sexual Minorities) like myself who is genderfluid (bio-male and hetero, which the term itself should be changed to "gynephile" in my case). In astrology, the trend signifies a more open population than previous memory to the prevalence of LGBTQ and GRSM identities in my (North) American society.

I was born in 1980, a different time to be LGBTQ or GRSM, but not like what it was tougher, harsher and stricter than let's say if I was born in 1940 and 1950. My natal chart with a double Aquarius sun/moon; Venus conjunct Eris, Eros and Ceres; Mercury in between in Pisces opposite a big Mars-Jupiter-Saturn-Lilith stellium in Virgo; Cancer rising; and Uranus in Scorpio are huge indicators of a person will identify as both genders, although has a solely "hetero" orientation. My Saturn return was when I became open to others on my genderfluidity.