Arabic Parts in Hellenistic Astrology

Chrysalis

Chrysalis

Well-known member
An Arabic parts in Hellenistic thread, thats turned into an ongoing debate about accuracy of predictions.

Interesting.
 
Chrysalis

Chrysalis

Well-known member
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Senecar said:
Only difference is that my opinion is based on reason, while
yours is based on your emotion. :)
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Fact is to claim a 70% success rate with ten or possibly twelve horary charts
while keeping in mind that
Oddity an experienced astrologer with many decades of practice :smile:
has stated earlier on this thread:
Oddity said:
Horary is fairly heavily weighted to a 'no' answer.
People mostly don't get what they want in life.

That being said, I could probably go through the relationships section
of the horary forum here
and hit 90% accuracy without even looking at the charts.

I don't think that'd say much about me as an astrologer, though.
Click to expand...
highlights the limitations of claiming accuracy using Horary astrology

by the way
reason shows
IF one only ever delineated one Horary chart
and got it right
then
one can easily claim a 100% success rate
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Chrysalis said:

Senecar getting back to your original query, if your interested in Hellenistic Astrology, which i myself am too.

Check out this link, there's many webinars from this site to do with hellenistic astrologers.

https://www.astrolada.com/

There is also youtube vids too, which are obviously free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFfVYNy7hc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n26S-NgHoCA

There's more, but you'll have to dig around her youtube site to find them, they're not hard to find.
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also one of our members Chris Brennan :smile:
has many online Hellenistic youtube videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvGX7JOig8
 
P

petosiris

Banned
He appears to have been mistaken, he first said 6-7 charts, now they are 10-12 (why the doubled uncertainty?). I cannot be sure if he is even practicing astrology.

One of the correct horary readings is in Horary forum Locating for missing tool parts. And I made about 5-6 other horardy readings
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I have done about 10 - 12, and accuracy was about 70%.
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He also said he has not ever looked at length of life. Seriously, do not bother with a troll.

Edit: One explanation is that he realised that 70% is impossible with 7 charts, so he fantasizes he has delineated 10 charts in his life. As Jupiterasc said, even 10 is too low to make a conclusion about accuracy.
 
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Chrysalis

Chrysalis

Well-known member
Ahh Chris brennan :biggrin: im a follower of his youtube, his serious pursed lipped persona, intrigues me :biggrin:

Ive watched a few vid of his.

Its this vid of his....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXcnknQTT6k&t=5233s
that got me into looking at saturn return charts.

Chris brennan's a member on here, well chris your pursed lips persona is nothing to be ashamed of, that's just how you are, i love your vids anyway, if you ever read this thread, ive watched a few of your vids up to now, and ive learnt a lot from them, so i Thankyou for your time of making these.
 
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Chrysalis

Chrysalis

Well-known member
petosiris said:
He is obviously lying, he first said 6-7 charts, now they are 10-12 (why the doubled uncertainty?). I cannot be sure if he is even practicing astrology.




He also said he has not ever looked at length of life. Seriously, do not bother with a troll.

Edit: One explanation is that he realised that 70% is impossible with 7 charts, so he fantasizes he has delineated 10 charts in his life.
Click to expand...

Don't you think you've derailed this thread enough, a thread that's started in the UK has ended up in Australia...and totally gone off topic.

He's not a troll either, he seems to me, like someone who has a backbone, and won't back down to stupendous attacks from people.

Just get this thread back to where it belongs please...jeez.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
petosiris said:
He is obviously lying, he first said 6-7 charts, now
they are 10-12 (why the doubled uncertainty?).
I cannot be sure if he is even practicing astrology.

He also said he has not ever looked at length of life.
Seriously, do not bother with a troll.

Edit: One explanation is that he realised that 70% is impossible with 7 charts, so
he fantasizes he has delineated 10 charts in his life.
As Jupiterasc said, even 10 is too low to make a conclusion about accuracy.
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That is the problem with percentages :smile:
a beginner may have six or seven charts all correct
but then the next six or seven charts are all incorrect
so there is always fluctuation
and the statistics are not static
but fluctuate

he is a beginner, he said he began in January this year
so obviously he has done six or seven charts
then by the next post
he has done ten or twelve
so by now maybe he has done
twelve or fourteen
and the percentage has changed
 
P

petosiris

Banned
Ok, that might be true. He may have delineated 4 - 7? charts in the course of 24 hours and 6-7 charts in the course of a few months. So maybe Senecar is saying the truth. I will edit my post with the accusation immediately.
 
P

petosiris

Banned
Anyways, back on the topic, Senecar you have Hellenistic Astrology by Chris Brennan. He has important information on the Lots between pg. 511 and 524. I think it is going to confirm my first comment that answered your question and even give you a few formulas used by Dorotheus and others. He also talks about the debate about the Lot of Fortune calculation.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
petosiris said:

Anyways, back on the topic, Senecar you have Hellenistic Astrology by Chris Brennan.
He has important information on the Lots between 511 and 524.
I think it is going to confirm my first comment
that answered your question
and even give you a few formulas used by Dorotheus and others.
Click to expand...
ok, back on topic :smile:
we are discussing Lots aka Arabic Parts
and not necessariy accuracy
 
Dirius

Dirius

Well-known member
Senecar said:
Accuracy in percentage is just objective reflection of the accuracy itself, and shouldn't spill into other speculations? That's just math and statistics regardless how many readings one did.

And, if one does 800 - 1000 charts readings, then would his accuracy not climb up with more knowledge and experience? I can't see how accuracy of readings would stay at the same level of the newbies, as one does more readings and accumulate more experience in astrology.
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The larger size of the sample reduces the variance of making a mistake and still getting it right. You can re-start your count once you feel your skills have improved. But it would still take a rather large sample to honestly say that you have a high percentage of succes.

And again, as I said before, there are different levels of dificulty in a chart. Packing them all together into one category isn't really useful. An astrologer can be amazing when reading relationship charts, and then a complete failure when making lost item charts.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
petosiris said:
It is true that what I do is not conclusive and hypothetical, but what you say is absolutely fanciful. I have some evidence, you have none to work with. Argument ex silentio seems to be a very strong argument in this case.

You are trying to cast too much doubt on traditional astrology. You are free to quote any academic as an argument against any of my points, I much prefer that to straw man arguments.
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I can see this thread has moved on, but my computer was in the shop for the past two days.

Petosiris, sometimes the best defense is a good offense, but really, these "mirror, mirror on the wall" ripostes are unhelpful. My thoughts on the origins of thematic house meanings are not "absolutely fanciful" or straw man tactics, but are based upon research that you apparently have not undertaken. I should start a separate thread on it, probably at Skyscript, where I note that you are also a member. Once I can find the time, it would take me a couple of days to get all of my notes organized, and to catch up on any late-breaking publications that might address this topic.

I've told you several times how busy I am of late, and this particular thread is about lots, so please be patient.

Where do you see me "trying to cast doubt on traditional astrology"? I have a lot of interest in the origins of horoscopic astrology. We also must recognize that, during the Hellenistic period, there wasn't just one astrology. On your sidereal thread, you yourself have noted signal differences between Ptolemy and the siderealists. In ancient times there were different "schools" of astrology ranging from practical hands-on professionals with clienteles, to Aristotelians, to court astrologers, to Hermeticists, to practitioners of Mithraism, to street fair astrologers, to whatever other dubious claimants the literary source authors complained about, as giving professional astrologers a bad name.

You seemed to denigrate Manilius as a poet, yet he was deeply convinced of the sacred nature of astrology; and in his day, poetry was deemed the proper way to write about the gods and the heavens. He wrote (3:30-35)

"I must wrestle with numerals and names of things unheard of, with the seasons, the changing fortunes and movements of the sky, with the signs' variations, and even with the portions of their portions. Ah, how great a task it is to put into words what passes understanding! Ah, how great to tell in fitting poetry, and this to yoke to a fixed metre!" (Goold translation, Loeb Classical Library, pp. 166-7.)

This doesn't mean that Manilius imparted no useful astrological information. Book 3 contains a fair bit of practical information on such topics as the length of time signs take to rise in different locations, length-of-life calculations, and the significance of the "tropic" (equinox and solstice) signs

So far as the Arabic parts are concerned, they were (in English translation) called "lots," as obviously the rise of Muslim astrology had not yet occurred. Manilius discussed the lots in the context of the uniqueness they imparted to each horoscope, focusing on the lot of fortune (3:96ff) The lot based on one's ascendant, moon, and sun position, and birth location deeply personalized the horoscope. The athla (locations, "abodes") for the lots do not seem to correlate with today's house or sign characteristics, however. (See: Dorian Greenbaum, The Daimon in Hellenistic Astrology, pp. 290-296, google book.) Manilius distinguishes between day and night nativities (sect) for calculating the part of fortune.

Greenbaum argued that the way Manilius described the locations of the part of fortune suggested their use in both natal and electional astrology.

I'd be hard-pressed to write up this material in hexameters!

The Astronomica of Manilius was written ca. 10-20 CE, making it the earliest extant Hellenistic astrology book, and an important source for tracking the history of horoscopic astrology, which emerges fully-fledged in his book.
 
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Senecar

Senecar

Well-known member
Chrysalis said:
Senecar getting back to your original query, if your interested in Hellenistic Astrology, which i myself am too.

Check out this link, there's many webinars from this site to do with hellenistic astrologers.

https://www.astrolada.com/

There is also youtube vids too, which are obviously free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFfVYNy7hc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n26S-NgHoCA

There's more, but you'll have to dig around her youtube site to find them, they're not hard to find.
Click to expand...


Great links, thanks Chrys :))
 
Senecar

Senecar

Well-known member
When I said 70% accuracy prediction from my own 10 horary readings weren't meant to be any hint of superiority issue.

But when you make a prediction, which we all do be it astrologer or not, in YES NO questions, statistically you get 50% accuracy even if you toss the coin for it.

So, with aid of Horary Astrology, it was quite normal to get about 70% of accuracy from the readings = although it is 10 readings, that shouldn't imply the accuracy percentage is meaningless. If the horary astrology were not able to aid at all in any ways, then no matter how little or many readings you do, the percentage will still reflect the case.

From that, my point was, for a knowledgeable and long experienced astrologer with all highly complex traditional time lord calculation techniques and theories, you would expect him to get way over 50% accuracy in his prediction. And I would reckon should it not be 80% even not 90% of accuracy ?

I was a bit taken back to read that Peto's accuracy on his astrological readings based on the techniques he was using was only 30-40% = that's just way too low = it is even lower than tossing a coin.????

I feel that my logic on this point is perfect realistic and practical = nothing to do with superiority or bragging as peto tries to make out.

Anyhow, back to Arabic Parts, Robert Zoller says in his book "Arabic Parts in Astrology" that the true origin of Arabic Parts are from the very ancient times of Mesopotamian and Babylonian times, but officially it appears for the first time as recorded source, in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblios and Manilus Firmicus's works later, then other medieval Arabian astrologers picked them up to elaborate further.

Zoller is adamant that Ptolemy got the information from the Mesopotamians and Babylonians and from that, wrote his Tetrabiblios.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Senecar said:
When I said 70% accuracy prediction
from my own 10 horary readings
weren't meant to be any hint of superiority issue.

But when you make a prediction, which we all do
be it astrologer or not, in YES NO questions, statistically
you get 50% accuracy even if you toss the coin for it.
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well since you continue to raise the issue, my response is
Dirius is very experienced with horary
Dirius mentioned earlier on this thread
that nearly all Horary readings
are basically chance 50/50
and I quote
Dirius said:
I don't think chart success rate
is a good way to measure horary readings.
The truth is
that nearly all horary questions ever made
are 50/50 chance situations
and pretty much a "yes" or "no" answer.
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then Oddity
who has decades of practice and experience
has provided a far more practical argument than your argument
and I quote:
Oddity said:

Horary is fairly heavily weighted to a 'no' answer.

People mostly don't get what they want in life.

That being said, I could probably go through
the relationships section of the horary forum here
and hit 90% accuracy without even looking at the charts.

I don't think that'd say much about me as an astrologer, though.
Click to expand...

the reasons Oddity has given
nullifies your argument quoted below
Senecar said:
So, with aid of Horary Astrology, it was quite normal
to get about 70% of accuracy from the readings
= although it is 10 readings
that shouldn't imply the accuracy percentage is meaningless.
If the horary astrology were not able to aid at all in any ways, then
no matter how little or many readings you do
the percentage will still reflect the case.
Click to expand...

given Oddity has already clarified
that Horary is weighted heavily towards "no" answers
then
that makes your argument of 70% accuracy for ten horary charts
being somehow remarkable
actually incorrect
and then Dirius, also experienced adds
Dirius said:
I do think its better to test horary based on its descriptive accuracy.

For example if someone ask you:"will I get a boyfriend this summer?", the answer is really a yes or no question, regardless of how much effort you put into the actual reading. Any person guessing could get to the same conclusion as the astrologer, so its not really decisive on whether horary works, or even if the method works.

However, if you manage to predict: yes you will get a boyfriend, he will be tall and have red hair; he doesn't have much money or a good job, but he is handsome; the relationship will be rather short however, he is on the rebound heart-broken because of his recent ex.

Now that certainly reveals something. Yet, not all question can be looked in that depth.

---------------------------------
---------------------------------

Another thing is that sometimes querents ask questions for the sake of asking them, specially because they know that (at least on internet forums) they can ask any silly question and get a reading for free. They pretty much use horary as some smartphone app for their dating life, so they get to make 500 questions a week about the same subject, or make multiple charts by themselves that usually render difficult results. So, questions from this forum can actually hurt your actual percentage based results, given half the people here don't really adhere to any sort of horary rule, and just make chart after chart every single day asking the same thing, at which point most charts cast in that way would net invalid results, regardless of how good your technique is.
Click to expand...
Notice as well Dirius highlights that the offer of free readings
by an online amateur forum
inevitably encourages countless questions on the same subject
which nullifies the methodology

 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Senecar said:
From that, my point was, for a knowledgeable and long experienced astrologer
with all highly complex traditional time lord calculation techniques and theories
you would expect him to get way over 50% accuracy in his prediction.
And I would reckon should it not be 80% even not 90% of accuracy ?

I was a bit taken back to read that Peto's accuracy on his astrological readings based on the techniques he was using was only 30-40%
= that's just way too low = it is even lower than tossing a coin.????

I feel that my logic on this point
is perfect realistic and practical
= nothing to do with superiority
or bragging as peto tries to make out.
Click to expand...
Your argument fails to acknowledge that
Horary and Natal are completely different methodologies
Horary does not use Time Lord techniques for example :smile:
so your logic on this matter is impractical
as there is no comparison
and as petosiris mentioned
due to your inexperience you are simply mistaken
regarding the validity of your claims
especially since you have not worked with the techniques
that you then criticise petosiris regarding


 
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