'Communism' & Saturn

the sagittarius archetype was important pre-capricorn.

jimi hendrix was sag
jim morrison was sag
bob dylan had a sag ascendant

the other group was
libra/aqua - lennon
bob dylan - taurus/gemini
syd barret - aqua-cap

cancer was also an important archetype since its opposite capricorn.

I too feel that the SOCIALIST regime (USSR) in Russia, was basically a Capricornian and Saturnine expression, which espoused the communist ideal (fairness and equality of Libra, humanism of Aquarius, friendship for and among all, of Venus, humanistic idealism of Uranus), but which certainly fell far from realizing that ideal (actually the dominant "theory" coming from Lenin and later Stalin was that a SOCIALIST authoritarian STATE would be created and used to "direct" the population, and that this state would eventually "wither away" when an "enlightened populace" would finally be "able" to live in a truly communist society free from authoritarian domination)-this theorizing is reminsicent of Mercury and Uranus, but in the history of the USSR we have an excellent example of how lofty theoretical ideas can turn out (result) in great detriment to humanity, and in the real world, cause an exact reversal of the effects/results expected in the theory!

Moog said:

Mercury is agriculture and wheat?

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I believe Claire19 considers Ceres the ruler of Virgo (quite a few Modern astrologers either accept or lean toward this concept)

*emma* said:

no of course they dont hVe to be communist they can be american too

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I.e. Fascist. (Well more so that than "capitalistic" or something of the sort in any relatively pure form of it.)

Well not to get into some **** debate about politics, I think it's an interesting connection Moog.

dr. farr said:

I too feel that the SOCIALIST regime (USSR) in Russia, was basically a Capricornian and Saturnine expression, which espoused the communist ideal (fairness and equality of Libra, humanism of Aquarius, friendship for and among all, of Venus, humanistic idealism of Uranus), but which certainly fell far from realizing that ideal (actually the dominant "theory" coming from Lenin and later Stalin was that a SOCIALIST authoritarian STATE would be created and used to "direct" the population, and that this state would eventually "wither away" when an "enlightened populace" would finally be "able" to live in a truly communist society free from authoritarian domination)-this theorizing is reminsicent of Mercury and Uranus, but in the history of the USSR we have an excellent example of how lofty theoretical ideas can turn out (result) in great detriment to humanity, and in the real world, cause an exact reversal of the effects/results expected in the theory!

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Agreed. I would add that it's very Aquarian, the built-up tension of polarizing voices - Uranus and Saturn, that makes many revolutionary and radical ideas backlash or go overboard. The French Revolution, Paris Commune, Red Terror, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and similar events/campaigns come to mind. Certainly not a bed of roses for those who were persecuted.

Symbolism of the emblem posted by Moog in the first post, is predominantly martial:

-5 pointed star = Mars (Mars 5th planet from Sun, counting earth and moon; Mars 5th sephira of the kabbalistic tree of life, etc)

-red background color = Mars

-sickle a cutting instrument (Mars)

-hammer an iron (or steel) pounding instrument (Vulcan-Mars)

-only the wheat sheaves are at variance with the martial symbols, the sheaves symbolizing Saturn

...so in the USSR symbol we find a predominantly Mars, with some Saturnine, indication (Mars/Saturn conjunction, Mars dominant)

dr. farr said:

Symbolism of the emblem posted by Moog in the first post, is predominantly martial:

-5 pointed star = Mars (Mars 5th planet from Sun, counting earth and moon; Mars 5th sephira of the kabbalistic tree of life, etc)

-red background color = Mars

-sickle a cutting instrument (Mars)

-hammer an iron (or steel) pounding instrument (Vulcan-Mars)

-only the wheat sheaves are at variance with the martial symbols, the sheaves symbolizing Saturn

...so in the USSR symbol we find a predominantly Mars, with some Saturnine, indication (Mars/Saturn conjunction, Mars dominant)

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Yes. I believe that the symbolism is a carry-over from the Paris Commune, which was fairly violent (Martian).

Communism evolved out of discontent with the inequalities generated by the Industrial Revolution. I wonder what form of violence will evolve out of discontent with corporate/multinational takeover?

"Dictatorship of the proletariat" was the slogan of the Paris Commune. The recent 99% Occupy Wall Street was a re-hash of those ideas. I'd be careful if I were the 1%, just saying... when is humanity going to learn that greediness brings violent downfall and anger from the people?

What sign is Capitalism ?

Melaike said:

What sign is Capitalism ?

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Capricorn?

Claire19 said:

...saturn is not really associated with agriculture or wheat. Virgo and its ruler more.

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Exactly - image of constellation of Virgo

Moog said:

Mercury is agriculture and wheat?

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“The original Virgo is believed to be the early grain goddess Nidoba who, prior to Nabu (the Babylonian god of wisdom, justice and 'the scribe'), was an important goddess of writing.

As Nabu rose to prominence he absorbed the worship of Nidoba and became identified with the planet Mercury, which reinforced the scholarly associations of the constellation through that planet's rulership and exaltation in the sign. In Babylonian myth, the identification between Virgo and the grain goddess led the constellation figure to be personified as Ishtar, the consort of the corn god Tammuz.”
source: Star Lore of the Constellations http://www.skyscript.co.uk/virgo_myth.html

in contrast, these are the traditional significations of Saturn which include "cultivation of the land" in general, not wheat specifically http://www.skyscript.co.uk/Abu_Mashar_Saturn.html

Claire19 said:

...Saturn rules the 10th house and Capricorn and whilst it is Earth it is about structure and order and sure many Capricorns are farmers etc but the stereotype is for organisation of the crop and how it is distributed, subtle differences. Saturn is the authority figure.

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JUPITERASC said:

Exactly - image of constellation of Virgo

“The original Virgo is believed to be the early grain goddess Nidoba who, prior to Nabu (the Babylonian god of wisdom, justice and 'the scribe'), was an important goddess of writing.

As Nabu rose to prominence he absorbed the worship of Nidoba and became identified with the planet Mercury, which reinforced the scholarly associations of the constellation through that planet's rulership and exaltation in the sign. In Babylonian myth, the identification between Virgo and the grain goddess led the constellation figure to be personified as Ishtar, the consort of the corn god Tammuz.”
source: Star Lore of the Constellations http://www.skyscript.co.uk/virgo_myth.html

in contrast, these are the traditional significations of Saturn which include "cultivation of the land" in general, not wheat specifically http://www.skyscript.co.uk/Abu_Mashar_Saturn.html

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I fail to see Virgo's connection to the ideologies of Communism though...

Wheat was used because I believe, at the time of the Soviet Revolution, the largest sector of the population was in agriculture. If we were to stage a revolution today, in America for example, this symbolism would speak to a very small percentage of the modern population...

As for China, because wheat is only consumed in the North, it would alienante the rice-eating population. This would certainly be the case in Vietnam. Ok, going off topic here...

Saturn is symbolically associated with the reaper of old. It was ‘feared’ in ancient times. Although I think our interpretation of how the ancients viewed Saturn is a little unclear.

Saturn takes away but also gives. So the wheat cutter. You have to cut the wheat to start anew. Yep. Part of the process of the cycle of life. Saturn has a very earthy quality to it. (Capricorn)
Im not saying that it is agriculture though but it is symbolic of what the planet is about. Wheat in ancient time sustained a lot of people(still does) Much like the buddha holding the bowl of rice is a symbol of importance in the east.

Virgo is nurturance on a daily basis. Saturn the longer cycle.

Caro said:

Saturn is symbolically associated with the reaper of old. It was ‘feared’ in ancient times. Although I think our interpretation of how the ancients viewed Saturn is a little unclear.

Saturn takes away but also gives. So the wheat cutter. You have to cut the wheat to start anew. Yep. Part of the process of the cycle of life. Saturn has a very earthy quality to it. (Capricorn)
Im not saying that it is agriculture though but it is symbolic of what the planet is about. Wheat in ancient time sustained a lot of people(still does) Much like the buddha holding the bowl of rice is a symbol of importance in the east.

Virgo is nurturance on a daily basis. Saturn the longer cycle.

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There's in the doctrine of Communism a glorification of labor, of the average people, the workers and the peasants, egalitarianism. It's anti-elitist in its ideologies. Produce what you can and take only what you need. It is very Aquarian because it was ideological and radical for its time. I fail to see Capricorn's connection to Communist ideologies either... Saturnine yes. But Capricorn is all about social and materialistic ascension, a moving-up of sort.

dr. farr said:

Symbolism of the emblem posted by Moog in the first post, is predominantly martial:

-5 pointed star = Mars (Mars 5th planet from Sun, counting earth and moon; Mars 5th sephira of the kabbalistic tree of life, etc)

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Interesting that VENUS is more associated with a 5 pointed star NOT Mars

I think I've ran out of thanks.

I'm glad that you've looked at my thread, and glad that people are adding their own views and ideas.

Obviously not everyone agrees with all the links I've made symbolically here. And that's fine.

Another friend of mine suggested that the hammer was actually a Jupiter symbol, going through it's association with the Nordic god, Thor.

Moog said:

I think I've ran out of thanks.

I'm glad that you've looked at my thread, and glad that people are adding their own views and ideas.

Obviously not everyone agrees with all the links I've made symbolically here. And that's fine.

Another friend of mine suggested that the hammer was actually a Jupiter symbol, going through it's association with the Nordic god, Thor.

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The Hammer of Thunder and Lightning!!

JUPITERASC said:

The Hammer of Thunder and Lightning!!

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yes.

Mjölnir simply means "crusher", referring to its pulverizing effect.

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I would agree with the aquarian link to communism. to an extreme an aqua energy can be a bit fanatical and also I think that communism someway mirrors the fascists.

I

“Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn originally held 17 December and later expanded with unofficial festivities through December 23.

The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.The poet Catullus called it "the best of days." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

'Saturnalia' has obviously morphed to our modern day 'Christmas' when Saturn interestingly manifests as a party animal.

“In Roman mythology, Saturn was an agricultural deity who reigned over the world in the Golden Age, when humans enjoyed the spontaneous bounty of the earth without labor in a state of social egalitarianism. The revelries of Saturnalia were supposed to reflect the conditions of the lost mythical age, not all of them desirable.”

The idea of 'a state of social egalitarianism' is closer to communism. Communism has everything to do with that which is 'communal' aka 'people power'

i saw an anthropology video where it stated that the overall rate of violence has greatly declined since tribal stage. a long time ago. i couldnt find it, but this study is similar and more recent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHIi8KwtFlY

saturn would then pass through several sublations in its content insignia depending on "social reality and material reality"

on the other hand when i took ayahuasca the day afterwards i walked in to a subway and i noticed that the tile and walls were of very tribal origin, and the insignia of the tribal forest was located everywhere inside the place. i saw the people working there and they basically looked like a jungle tribe. it was kind of like they were chained down. it was a particular layer of consciousness that i call the "tribal layer" that is shown during ayahuasca. the perceptual reality of it is concretized and manipulated via certain seemingly unimpoverished images of the society when the reality of it is that we are just some animals wandering around in forest areas. most of the modern designs are or come from ancient designs, but also could be futuristic designs. the timewave just collapses where the present shows both past and future possibilities.