Is the heart of astrology Symbolism or Mathematics?

Cosmiccradle

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Although astrology contains symbols, the heart of astrology is calculation. We calculate the chart and planets, parts and asteroids, etc. We use symbols to show our calculations and can thereby interpert those calculations using the placement of those symbols.

Is the heart of astrology symbolism, or mathematics?
 
Vinyasa

Vinyasa

Well-known member
Aren’t both mathematics and astrology systems of symbolism?

So the question is, what is in the heart of the heart?

Lévi-Strauss spoke about binary oppositions, post-structuralism tried to dissolve the oppositions. One inherent problem to deconstruction is that you cannot deconstruct a binary opposition unless first you recognize there is one. In this way post-structuralism is a continuation of structuralism. Whether you construct or you deconstruct, you think again in duality, in axes. The moment you forget the axis, you lose the sense of the one edge you originally tried to comprehend.

It is the same with astrology: you always must think in axes.

And it is the same with mathematics, you always must think is ‘1’ and ‘0’.

Both mathematics and astrology are the signifier – and the ‘heart’ is the signified.

Vinyasa
 
Cosmiccradle

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Vinyasa said:
Aren’t both mathematics and astrology systems of symbolism?

So the question is, what is in the heart of the heart?

Lévi-Strauss spoke about binary oppositions, post-structuralism tried to dissolve the oppositions. One inherent problem to deconstruction is that you cannot deconstruct a binary opposition unless first you recognize there is one. In this way post-structuralism is a continuation of structuralism. Whether you construct or you deconstruct, you think again in duality, in axes. The moment you forget the axis, you lose the sense of the one edge you originally tried to comprehend.

It is the same with astrology: you always must think in axes.

And it is the same with mathematics, you always must think is ‘1’ and ‘0’.

Both mathematics and astrology are the signifier – and the ‘heart’ is the signified.

Vinyasa
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My attempt is not to judge what astrology is, but to ascertain how others experience astrology. Before the computer hours could be spent on calculations, and all of the symbols can only be placed after those calculations, so in my experience the heart of astrology is mathematics. How one defines math or symbol, is subjective.
 
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Sagmoon

Well-known member
Someone said that architecture is like frozen music (classical), or rather (anyone please correct me). I thought you might like the quote as there is something very relative in everything. That maybe somehow it's all connected; that what we know as a symbol is a psychological perception, but it's beginnings lie in science, maths etc... Philosophy provides the missing link, it's what you are after I guess...
 
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Vinyasa

Vinyasa

Well-known member
[Sorry, had to go for a couple of hours, get myself into the water (lack of Water in the chart :eek:...)]

I am not judging anything here either, I am trying to get to the point of what lies in the heart of astrology, the original question.

After thinking axially, the next step I think it to realize that the two poles of a duality are not really standing in an opposition - and that they are not static at all anyway. The two poles:
(a) contradict each other; but at the same moment
(b) one includes the other; which means that subsequently,
(c) one is inherent into the other.

If you want to visualise this relationship, you actually arrive to this scheme.

It is the same if you think in mathematical terms:
1 is unequal to 0
still though 1=1+0
and 0=0-1

Now, if we translate it into astrological terms, with any (casual) polarity:
Virgo (for example) is the opposite pole from Pisces;
But Virgo traits' rationalisation presupposes the existence of Pisces;
And at the same moment they are inherent in any attempt to define the traits of Pisces.

So at the end the binary oppositions serve to prove the interconnectivity between the poles: and at that same moment the poles stop being static and polarised. So either you construct a polarity or you de-construct it, where do you arrive then? What lies in the heart?

Vinyasa
 
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Cosmiccradle

Cosmiccradle

Well-known member
Vinyasa said:
[Sorry, had to go for a couple of hours, get myself into the water (lack of Water in the chart :eek:...)]

I am not judging anything here either, I am trying to get to the point of what lies in the heart of astrology, the original question.

After thinking axially, the next step I think it to realize that the two poles of a duality are not really standing in an opposition - and that they are not static at all anyway. The two poles:
(a) contradict each other; but at the same moment
(b) one includes the other; which means that subsequently,
(c) one is inherent into the other.

If you want to visualise this relationship, you actually arrive to this scheme.

It is the same if you think in mathematical terms:
1 is unequal to 0
still though 1=1+0
and 0=0-1

Now, if we translate it into astrological terms, with any (casual) polarity:
Virgo (for example) is the opposite pole from Pisces;
But Virgo traits' rationalisation presupposes the existence of Pisces;
And at the same moment they are inherent in any attempt to define the traits of Pisces.

So at the end the binary oppositions serve to prove the interconnectivity between the poles: and at that same moment the poles stop being static and polarised. So either you construct a polarity or you de-construct it, where do you arrive then? What lies in the heart?

Vinyasa
Click to expand...

If I understand you correctly, you're combining the two, math and symbolism in the above piece, math=0 and symbolism=1. But how does it make you feel? Are you enhanced by the numbers, proving a certain point with repeated calculations, or are you moved by the symbolism and their meaning?
 
Vinyasa

Vinyasa

Well-known member
No, not really...

What I would like to say is that astrology is a system of symbolism by itself, like mathematics, like music, like language... And on the base of this symbolic system, there are multiple binary oppositions in the schematic form I gave in my previous post - and exactly the same base have all other symbolic systems: they are all based on multiple yin-yang binary oppositions. Because the 'heart' of all is One. Or, as Sagmoon said, 'maybe somehow it's all connected'. It has very little to do with calculations: it is the same procedure whether you learn mathematics, or music, or astrology, or a language: until a certain point it is calculation, after a certain point it is harmony. The more you delve into a symbolic system and you transcend the point of calculating, the more chances you have to understand the 'heart' underlying: underlying not only the one system at hand, but all possible systems.

Vinyasa
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I agree with Vinyasa regarding the identity of symbolism and mathematics, and the fact that macrocosmic principles ultimately transcend this; however, I thnik I understand what Cosmiccradle intended by this question, and, for me, my answer is, SYMBOLISM moves me.
 
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Sagmoon

Well-known member
Vinyasa said:
No, not really...

What I would like to say is that astrology is a system of symbolism by itself, like mathematics, like music, like language...
Vinyasa
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yes i agree, i think we are thinking in similar terms. i think that symbolism itself is a 'language' it defines something, like you said maths is also symbolic, it is also a language. However, in mathematics, the laws are exact as they deal with the most abstract forms. It is a bit more confusing with symblism of astrology as we try to define and incorparate many ideas at once which are only understood in a psychological sense. Our insticts/emotions are really just a reflection of what we don't know, or what we see only in a glimse. There is maths in everything, it starts at the most elementary and abstarct point, 1, a dot, a line, a particle if you may. It ends at infinity. Or does it? These mathematical laws define everything. It just so happens that we cannot perceive a universe on a macro/microcosmic level and we have our limitations. We invent new language to communicate that which would have no meaning for us, if we'd only use the most abstract forms.
 
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Vinyasa

Vinyasa

Well-known member
I think that all symbolic systems, mathematics, astrology, music, language, (...) offer exactly the same capabilities to their users and they can all offer the same depth of analysis: because they are alternative methods/systems of reaching the same truth. If someone accepts that there is one truth ('heart') underlying, and that all systems lead to it, I do not know why one system should be more detailed or capable than another. It is our choice (historically and synchronically) concerning the kind of use we wish to make of a certain system.

You can use mathematics to describe 1+1=2, or you can use the same system to describe and prove Goldbach's theorem. It is up to the user.

You can use astrology to answer the question 'Does X love me?', or you can use the same system again and connect all the tiny aspects of your self by studying the harmonic aspects of your chart. It is a matter of choice.

By that I do not mean to be judgemental: I am of the belief that all these pieces of information are important, each in its context. '1+1=2' has a different application than the above-mentioned theorem, both however serve the same truth and constitute parts of the puzzle. And for this reason they are all vital.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Calculation is the foundation of astrology, but its "heart" has to be human beings. Otherwise it would be some branch of astronomy, not astrology.

Symbols [glyphs] are merely a shorthand way of expressing planets and signs. The horoscope is a highly stylized picture of the heavens from a geocentric perspective.

Human beings are messy and complicated creatures. Too bad, but our lives are what give astrology its meaning. If human lives were simple and predictable [i.e., robotic], nobody would need astrology.

A few branches of astrology [such as prediction of weather or natural disasters] can be made with no direct reference to human beings, but we're still there, indirectly giving natural events their meaning. Just for example, earthquakes occur somewhere on the planet a lot of the time. We cast charts for those that dramatically affect human lives.
 
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eternalautumn

Definitely symbolism in my opinion. Numbers wouldn't mean anything without us (human beings) giving them meaning. But for that you have to think about questions like this: If there were no people on the planet, how many people would there be? Is zero a number to you? Or the lack of a number? It's all subjective, cosmically, and without minds interpreting the world it would just be what it is, without meaning... Basically, we invented math, therefore it is a symbol, just as language is symbols, different sounds meaning different things, colors are symbols, as no other organism sees things the same way we do... Without us there would be no colors...

I hope at least some of that made sense. My brain is kind of foggy tonight. :smile:
 
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eternalautumn

I don't like how simplistic that is. All living things have mass, so yes, they are matter, but all matter is not alive.

Math and symbolism are the same, yes, I thought we had established that? :smile:
 
Amy Vir Sn Ari Mn Pis Ris

Amy Vir Sn Ari Mn Pis Ris

Well-known member
I probably wouldn't even be interested in astrology if I had to do the computations myself. lol. All I care about is getting the info and discovering the interpretation.

Well, let me correct, I'd "care" but I probably wouldn't pursue.

It's the means to the end result that I'm after.

Thank God for computer programs where we can get the info with a few clicks. :biggrin:
 
S

Sagmoon

Well-known member
Amy Vir Sn Ari Mn Pis Ris said:
I probably wouldn't even be interested in astrology if I had to do the computations myself. lol. All I care about is getting the info and discovering the interpretation.

Well, let me correct, I'd "care" but I probably wouldn't pursue.

It's the means to the end result that I'm after.

Thank God for computer programs where we can get the info with a few clicks. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Yeah I second that. But it was reading through parker's astrology, where i had to make my own calculations for the chart, that completely converted me to astrology...i never done it since though.
 
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