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  #401  
Unread 08-01-2019, 09:09 AM
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ardentika ardentika is offline
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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I don't really have an opinion or definitive answer on who made the universe. I also think if something is pulling the strings so to speak that they are most likely beyond human understanding in most cases.

What I mean is that whatever created the universe shouldn't be personified as a who in the first place, because I just doubt it's human-like.

I also think a lot of scientific evidence supports a lack of free will. We're just not conscious of the influences in our lives that dictate our behaviors and thoughts. Personally, I think free will is an illusion most people should have. I still live like I have free will, while understanding that's probably erroneous and it doesn't matter.

Btw, ardentika, I think you commented once that you used to live in a deterministic mindset believing you were meant for depression or whatever and then you decided to overcome it with free will? I don't think living in a deterministic mindset means you should ever just 'give up' and resign yourself to your fate or w/e. I don't personally believe fate is stagnant. I don't think if you're born with depressive tendencies that it means fate makes you that way forever. I just mean that if you were to 'overcome' depression/anxiety that it was fated and determined by subconscious or conscious influences (i.e. fate) and it wasn't all up to your 'free will'.
I know all those statements. Many believe free will doesn't exist just because your subconscious mind makes a decision 5 seconds before it comes to the conscious mind. But your subconscious mind is still you.
Yes there is a mechanism inside that seems to be more important than our conscious mind for obvious reasons, but we do have a conscious mind for a reason. I believe our free will goes to intention.

We have the free will to set an intention that changes our whole life and fate. We don't control the events that are byproduct of this intention but it changes our lives. So just by me setting the intention that I will heal my tendancies , fate set up a series of events to help me do so. But people who don't make intentions simply follow a path.

I do believe there is a higher power.guided by love most of the time. I do think we can't see the full picture and us as a whole becoming more aware it's challenging us to be more trusting cos with all our awareness we still can't see the bigger picture. I don't think the universe denies requests, I don't think this mechanism knows a NO. Ans that's why many people attract what they don't want. Me including. I often forget this and fall into negative thinking. But again that doesn't always work.

For example, from the ages of 10 till 20 maybe,I was sure I wasn't gonna live till mature age. I was smart enough to know it was an irrational thought and fear,but there it was. I'm 24,so I'd say I passed it. I did 2 past life regressions that showed me dying somewhere before this age in 2 past lives. I don't know if I believe in past lives but it's a fact something in my subconscious mind was feeling this. Even tho I was thinking it , I didn't attract it.

It's complex. Maybe my feeling was methaphorical because I did experience a methaphorical death at the age of 20-21 and I was never the same person. So maybe in a sense I did attract it? Or maybe I was just feeling what's to come long before it happened? Who knows. It's a fact that my north node is in Scorpio .

So I guess we will never know the answer.

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  #402  
Unread 08-01-2019, 09:27 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I know all those statements. Many believe free will doesn't exist just because your subconscious mind makes a decision 5 seconds before it comes to the conscious mind. But your subconscious mind is still you.
Yes there is a mechanism inside that seems to be more important than our conscious mind for obvious reasons, but we do have a conscious mind for a reason. I believe our free will goes to intention.

We have the free will to set an intention that changes our whole life and fate. We don't control the events that are byproduct of this intention but it changes our lives. So just by me setting the intention that I will heal my tendancies , fate set up a series of events to help me do so. But people who don't make intentions simply follow a path.

I do believe there is a higher power.guided by love most of the time. I do think we can't see the full picture and us as a whole becoming more aware it's challenging us to be more trusting cos with all our awareness we still can't see the bigger picture. I don't think the universe denies requests, I don't think this mechanism knows a NO. Ans that's why many people attract what they don't want. Me including. I often forget this and fall into negative thinking. But again that doesn't always work.

For example, from the ages of 10 till 20 maybe,I was sure I wasn't gonna live till mature age. I was smart enough to know it was an irrational thought and fear,but there it was. I'm 24,so I'd say I passed it. I did 2 past life regressions that showed me dying somewhere before this age in 2 past lives. I don't know if I believe in past lives but it's a fact something in my subconscious mind was feeling this. Even tho I was thinking it , I didn't attract it.

It's complex. Maybe my feeling was methaphorical because I did experience a methaphorical death at the age of 20-21 and I was never the same person. So maybe in a sense I did attract it? Or maybe I was just feeling what's to come long before it happened? Who knows. It's a fact that my north node is in Scorpio .

So I guess we will never know the answer.
Personally I think the subconscious mind is influenced and influences us in various untold ways. I mean, just because the subconscious mind is you (how would you define yourself, where are the edges of who you are?), doesn't mean the subconscious is within control of your conscious mind or your will. I view your conscious experience as the tip of the iceberg personally and I think that your conscious experience has been determined by your subconscious (influences which you are unaware of, in simplistic terms).

In my opinion, your fear of death from those ages probably stemmed from a subconscious influence and your conscious desire to overcome it probably also came from a subconscious influence. That's what I'm saying. What you consciously will is determined by influences that you have no awareness of nor control over.

Like I said though, free will is an illusion most people need. I think that's fair to say.

And regarding how the universe does not deny requests... That logic can be applied in a variety of insidious ways, such as 'she/he was asking for it'. Do individuals request the mass devastation of a hurricane, etc? Further, how does an infant request their life experiences? A lot of psychologists mention how your ego develops around age 7 (your first Saturn square) and somehow experiences up to that age are highly influential in your identity throughout life. I don't think the universe is so simple or giving as to say that every request from any person is granted.

Last edited by moonkat235; 08-01-2019 at 09:40 AM.
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  #403  
Unread 08-01-2019, 09:44 AM
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ardentika ardentika is offline
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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Personally I think the subconscious mind is influenced and influences us in various untold ways. I mean, just because the subconscious mind is you (how would you define yourself, where are the edges of who you are?), doesn't mean the subconscious is within control of your conscious mind or your will. I view your conscious experience as the tip of the iceberg personally and I think that your conscious experience has been determined by your subconscious (influences which you are unaware of, in simplistic terms).

In my opinion, your fear of death from those ages probably stemmed from a subconscious influence and your conscious desire to overcome it probably also came from a subconscious influence. That's what I'm saying. What you consciously will is determined by influences that you have no awareness of nor control over.

Like I said though, free will is an illusion most people need. I think that's fair to say.

And regarding how the universe does not deny requests... That logic can be applied in a variety of insidious ways, such as 'she/he was asking for it'. Do individuals request the mass devastation of a hurricane, etc? Further, how does an infant request their life experiences? A lot of psychologists mention how your ego develops around age 7 (your first Saturn square) and somehow experiences up to that age are highly influential in your identity throughout life. I don't think the universe is so simple or giving as to say that any every request from any person is granted.
Our consicous mind defines the edges of who we are. You have prolly heard that the subconscious mind is like a sponge and knows no good and bad. There is no filter. It takes consicous effort to reprogram it in a certain direction.
Mass destruction is another topic. We go into collective consciousness. I don't know. Maybe they did ask for it on some level. After all it's all experiences.

And I think the universe is that simple in a way. Which goes to the self fulfilled prophecies. If you believe you will fail, you prolly will. Something inside wanted you to experience this. Only humans perceive things as good and bad. We created this perception. But if you try to push it further, it's all just experience. And maybe we can be mindful of what we want to experience.
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  #404  
Unread 08-01-2019, 09:58 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Our consicous mind defines the edges of who we are. You have prolly heard that the subconscious mind is like a sponge and knows no good and bad. There is no filter. It takes consicous effort to reprogram it in a certain direction.
Mass destruction is another topic. We go into collective consciousness. I don't know. Maybe they did ask for it on some level. After all it's all experiences.

And I think the universe is that simple in a way. Which goes to the self fulfilled prophecies. If you believe you will fail, you prolly will. Something inside wanted you to experience this. Only humans perceive things as good and bad. We created this perception. But if you try to push it further, it's all just experience. And maybe we can be mindful of what we want to experience.
I'm confused. Are you saying the conscious mind (which is how you define yourself or an individual exclusively?) is independent of the subconscious or collective unconscious? I'm just unconvinced personally, but I will say for the record that I think and behave as if I have free will. I just acknowledge my conscious waking awareness has probably been completely determined by 'fate'.

I don't believe the conscious is independent of all else. I believe the opposite actually.

I'm also confused by how the conscious mind defines the edges of who we are, but the subconscious mind is still us (as per one of your earlier posts).

What do you think about children and infants within the context of free will? Do you think they have as much free will as an adult, given how their psyches and emotional control and even physical control are still developing? Do you think an infant requests to be abandoned by its mother? Further, how does one's free will interact with another's in your ideology? Just curious. What if individuals' wills go against each other?

Further, why are you interest in astrology at all? Do you think predictions can be made accurately if the native has the 'free will' to change it?

Last edited by moonkat235; 08-01-2019 at 10:19 AM.
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  #405  
Unread 08-01-2019, 10:54 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm confused. Are you saying the conscious mind (which is how you define yourself or an individual exclusively?) is independent of the subconscious or collective unconscious? I'm just unconvinced personally, but I will say for the record that I think and behave as if I have free will. I just acknowledge my conscious waking awareness has probably been completely determined by 'fate'.

I don't believe the conscious is independent of all else. I believe the opposite actually.

I'm also confused by how the conscious mind defines the edges of who we are, but the subconscious mind is still us (as per one of your earlier posts).

What do you think about children and infants within the context of free will? Do you think they have as much free will as an adult, given how their psyches and emotional control and even physical control are still developing? Do you think an infant requests to be abandoned by its mother? Further, how does one's free will interact with another's in your ideology? Just curious. What if individuals' wills go against each other?

Further, why are you interest in astrology at all? Do you think predictions can be made accurately if the native has the 'free will' to change it?
No, I'm not saying the conscious mind is seperate from the subconscious one. I just think they work together. The conscious mind processes what the subconscious one brings. It's like an endless source that helps us define ourselves. It gives us information, challenges, events and the conscious mind decides how to process them and what to take out of them.

I don't think kids have free will in the sense that an adult does, but then it goes back to what is fate and how does it work. If fate is simply a setting up of events for the future, then maybe our soul chose this experience of a certain family and/or being abandoned. The soul has a memory and if we believe the South Node deals with past lives, then this is where our childhood is too. I personally don't feel okay believing I was a victim of circumstances and never chose to be born in this family or born at all, cos I do feel this when it gets heavy but it brings me only more pain, and I rather not have it.

I've never had a prediction done so I can't say honestly cos I never experienced it. But I've seen mostly people trying to fit a chart to an event that already happened. So I don't even think it's possible to make a prediction. It's one thing to have an idea what energies will be at play, which to me isn't exactly a prediction. It's another to say "You will be 27 when you meet your spouse, and 30 when you will have your first kid." that's something I don't see. Why is that?

TO answer your question, astrology helps me understand myself better. My chart is challenging and I've always been drawn to the occult anyways, psychology and mysteries,so astrology was just another tool for me. Like tarot, or meditation, or reiki..
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  #406  
Unread 08-01-2019, 11:06 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
No, I'm not saying the conscious mind is seperate from the subconscious one. I just think they work together. The conscious mind processes what the subconscious one brings. It's like an endless source that helps us define ourselves. It gives us information, challenges, events and the conscious mind decides how to process them and what to take out of them.

I don't think kids have free will in the sense that an adult does, but then it goes back to what is fate and how does it work. If fate is simply a setting up of events for the future, then maybe our soul chose this experience of a certain family and/or being abandoned. The soul has a memory and if we believe the South Node deals with past lives, then this is where our childhood is too. I personally don't feel okay believing I was a victim of circumstances and never chose to be born in this family or born at all, cos I do feel this when it gets heavy but it brings me only more pain, and I rather not have it.

I've never had a prediction done so I can't say honestly cos I never experienced it. But I've seen mostly people trying to fit a chart to an event that already happened. So I don't even think it's possible to make a prediction. It's one thing to have an idea what energies will be at play, which to me isn't exactly a prediction. It's another to say "You will be 27 when you meet your spouse, and 30 when you will have your first kid." that's something I don't see. Why is that?

TO answer your question, astrology helps me understand myself better. My chart is challenging and I've always been drawn to the occult anyways, psychology and mysteries,so astrology was just another tool for me. Like tarot, or meditation, or reiki..
Thank you for your point of view. Our perspectives are just at odds and potentially damaging to the other so Im gonna let this go. I dont see myself as just a victim of fate though. Im not sure theres a point in having discussions like these.

Actually though on the issue of predictions and timing, traditional astrology and Vedic I think attempt to make the predictions you claim youve never seen done regarding meeting a spouse at x age etc.
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  #407  
Unread 08-01-2019, 11:43 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Thank you for your point of view. Our perspectives are just at odds and potentially damaging to the other so Im gonna let this go. I dont see myself as just a victim of fate though. Im not sure theres a point in having discussions like these.

Actually though on the issue of predictions and timing, traditional astrology and Vedic I think attempt to make the predictions you claim youve never seen done regarding meeting a spouse at x age etc.
I know many people who see fate in a different way, it's just a percpective I think . Someone who didn't have the best life wouldn't be happy to know it's fate, cos then it brings the question "Am I destined to suffer? Is this how my life will be?" you know?

And I gave this prediction as an example, but still I haven't seen much accurate predictions done with Vedic or traditional.
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  #408  
Unread 08-01-2019, 01:59 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

We are all struggling to understand the reason for our existence and why in one way not the other, how much role fate plays in our lives because we tend to mix different sytems, different theories, different fields etc., I say stick to one system and work it out till you are satisfied completely, if you don't get answers and then move to another system.

I personally have a problem with the arrogance of scientific reasoning and scientific minded people. Science as we know is an offshoot of the medieval renaissance, scientists almost all forgot their roots while some don't even know how science came into existence how science was practised along with natural, occult and religion and make fun of the people who have such views as if these people are not evolved and plain stupid.

That is why I stick to old wisdom, old traditions, and occult. I can say with conviction if you mix systems you will end up nowhere.


edit: if any of you wondering why this comment, it may help you to know what science is doing in the areas you are interested but don't consider it as an authority till you can validate it yourself. These scientists wanted to demote Pluto from a planet because of stupid reasons, that is how stupid scientists are, dogmatic and ego driven.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 08-01-2019 at 02:11 PM.
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  #409  
Unread 08-01-2019, 02:23 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
I know many people who see fate in a different way, it's just a percpective I think . Someone who didn't have the best life wouldn't be happy to know it's fate, cos then it brings the question "Am I destined to suffer? Is this how my life will be?" you know?

And I gave this prediction as an example, but still I haven't seen much accurate predictions done with Vedic or traditional.
I am sure you would ask those questions and feel upset if you believed fate had overriding power. This is why its unnecessary to continue. Your implication that those who believe in fate and still feel positive havent suffered as much or enough is erroneous in many ways.
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  #410  
Unread 08-01-2019, 02:33 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
We are all struggling to understand the reason for our existence and why in one way not the other, how much role fate plays in our lives because we tend to mix different sytems, different theories, different fields etc., I say stick to one system and work it out till you are satisfied completely, if you don't get answers and then move to another system.

I personally have a problem with the arrogance of scientific reasoning and scientific minded people. Science as we know is an offshoot of the medieval renaissance, scientists almost all forgot their roots while some don't even know how science came into existence how science was practised along with natural, occult and religion and make fun of the people who have such views as if these people are not evolved and plain stupid.

That is why I stick to old wisdom, old traditions, and occult. I can say with conviction if you mix systems you will end up nowhere.


edit: if any of you wondering why this comment, it may help you to know what science is doing in the areas you are interested but don't consider it as an authority till you can validate it yourself. These scientists wanted to demote Pluto from a planet because of stupid reasons, that is how stupid scientists are, dogmatic and ego driven.
Traditionalistic astrology rejected the old ways and tried to formulate a materialistic reason for why astrology works. It was based on climate and rays of light. It led to the development of Modern materialistic science. Some "Traditional" astrologers today sneer at Modernistic astrologers who consider the archetypal deities, part of astrology going back over 5000 years ago, to be astrologically important in interpreting the meanings of the planetary significations.
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  #411  
Unread 08-01-2019, 02:38 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Traditionalistic astrology rejected the old ways and tried to formulate a materialistic reason for why astrology works. It was based on climate and rays of light.
What old ways you are talking about? Did climate and rays of light not exist in the times of ancient astrologers?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #412  
Unread 08-01-2019, 02:49 PM
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What old ways you are talking about? Did climate and rays of light not exist in the times of ancient astrologers?
Did gods and goddesses not exist in the times of ancient astrologers?
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  #413  
Unread 08-01-2019, 02:56 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Did gods and goddesses not exist in the times of ancient astrologers?
You seem to be a master at distracting, if you want to convey modern astrology is superior because it has backing by psychology then don't bother. I don't want to go restate all my arugments again and again.

The point I made was to call out the dangers in mixing occult and science and getting lost on the way as some users seem to talk about conscious and subsconcious. I know about polynesian shamanism which talks about subconscious minds.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #414  
Unread 08-01-2019, 03:34 PM
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You seem to be a master at distracting, if you want to convey modern astrology is superior because it has backing by psychology then don't bother. I don't want to go restate all my arugments again and again.

The point I made was to call out the dangers in mixing occult and science and getting lost on the way as some users seem to talk about conscious and subsconcious. I know about polynesian shamanism which talks about subconscious minds.
Not "psychology", just Jung and Freud, who were steeped in the ancient occult wisdom. Jung translated it into modern-day terminology. Both are largely discredited by today's professional-pschology hierarchy.
I'm curious as to whether you include Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio. That's forbidden in what has become labeled as "Traditional" astrology.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 04:04 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Not "psychology", just Jung and Freud, who were steeped in the ancient occult wisdom. Jung translated it into modern-day terminology. Both are largely discredited by today's professional-pschology hierarchy.
I'm curious as to whether you include Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio. That's forbidden in what has become labeled as "Traditional" astrology.

I don't know about it, you mean to say they are discredited because they are influenced by occultism? All human knowledge has some roots in occultism but people like to feel special they can't accept that their knowledge is already existent in some old wisdom. Science is a sect or some elite club which thinks they alone know the secrets of universe, what can be more delusional than that!

All the funding in science in understanding about univese should be cut down and instead put into some good use like how to clean the planet from astronomical quantities of wastes.

I don't consider Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio and comparing a bada** god like Hades to a feminine sign like Scorpio, how modern you have to get to even consider that?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 04:14 PM
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I don't know about it, you mean to say they are discredited because they are influenced by occultism? All human knowledge has some roots in occultism but people like to feel special they can't accept that their knowledge is already existent in some old wisdom. Science is a sect or some elite club which thinks they alone know the secrets of universe, what can be more delusional than that!

All the funding in science in understanding about univese should be cut down and instead put into some good use like how to clean the planet from astronomical quantities of wastes.

I don't consider Pluto as a ruler of Scorpio and comparing a bada** god like Hades to a feminine sign like Scorpio, how modern you have to get to even consider that?
Good! So, you do consider the "mythology" associated with the planets as important. Now, how do we explain why, in "Traditional" astrology, a masculine planet can rule a feminine Sign in the case of, say, Jupiter ruling Pisces?
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Unread 08-01-2019, 04:28 PM
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Of course, there's the bada** "male" planet Saturn ruling a "feminine" Sign, Capricorn. And the "Bull" a "feminine" Sign with a male symbol, being ruled by a female planet, Venus, which also rules a "masculine" Sign, Libra? Ptolemy's explanation for why the Moon and Sun rule only one Sign each, was that the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a "feminine" Sign, and the Moon was "too feminine" to rule a "masculine" Sign.

Last edited by david starling; 08-01-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 04:49 PM
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I like that you used "Hades" instead of "Pluto", because the place known as Hades had a queen. In ancient Sumeria she was known as Ereshkigal, and in ancient Greece, Persephone. In ancient Egypt, Isis ruled the underworld along side of Osirus. So, that would be the gender matchup, if you insist on gender correspondence between Signs and Rulers.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 04:54 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Good! So, you do consider the "mythology" associated with the planets as important. Now, how do we explain why, in "Traditional" astrology, a masculine planet can rule a feminine Sign in the case of, say, Jupiter ruling Pisces?
I knew you would ask this but thought you would ask why Mars for Scorpion then. And yes I do believe in mythology and myths are incredibly powerful and I'm heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell.

To your question, the rulership of signs in traditional astrology is mainly done with the symmetry seen in thema mundi with good enough logic but I think it worked out neatly considering the mode, element, temperament, and gender in accordance with the rulers where a sign can find its maxium expression.

For eg., Jupiter is a diurnal, moderately hot and moist, masculine planet, associated with air and sanguine temperament.

Pisces is a mutable, feminine, nocturnal sign associated with phlegmatic temperament.

If you put some other planet keeping one or two elements it will cause imbalance or push the elements to extremes or incompatibilty between elements or temperaments to the extremes. Only luminaries were given extreme expression in their signs in both element and temperament along with same gender.

Symmetry is beauty, beauty is truth.

On a side note I think in the book by Robert Svoboda on Jyotisha he talks about mythic story of assinging rulership based on how those planetary gods came quickly and grabbed the signs, like first come first served. It is very difficult to say if the myth influenced the reasoning behind thema mundi or thema mundi gave birth to the Indian myth but it does not matter.

It worked out perfectly.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

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lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I like that you used "Hades" instead of "Pluto", because the place known as Hades had a queen. In ancient Sumeria she was known as Ereshkigal, and in ancient Greece, Persephone. In ancient Egypt, Isis ruled the underworld along side of Osirus. So, that would be the gender matchup, if you insist on gender correspondence between Signs and Rulers.
True but it is very difficult to say when a myth travelled from one culture to another, there are no experts any more. Arguing about who came first is totally waste of time. All cultures had same kind of gods and goddesses and when some influence came another culture either new features were added to them or left intact depending on the people.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 05:01 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Of course, there's the bada** "male" planet Saturn ruling a "feminine" Sign, Capricorn. And the "Bull" a "feminine" Sign with a male symbol, being ruled by a female planet, Venus, which also rules a "masculine" Sign, Libra? Ptolemy's explanation for why the Moon and Sun rule only one Sign each, was that the Sun was "too masculine" to rule a "feminine" Sign, and the Moon was "too feminine" to rule a "masculine" Sign.
I think I answered in my explanation on the rulerships.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Yes, I understand and appreciate symmetry. The 7/12 pattern has it, the 10/12 Modernistic pattern does not. But there are important archetypal deities missing in 7/12, which are present and accounted for in "Modern". I felt compelled to go beyond the 10/12 pattern for reasons of symmetry, but my 12/12 pattern is probably too "Modern" for you.
What I really like about Modernistic astrology is that you're allowed to be creative, and think for yourself. In "Traditional", you're stuck with the opinions of relatively few authors, whose work managed to survive over the many centuries.

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Unread 08-01-2019, 05:25 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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But there are important archetypal deities missing in 7/12, which are present and accounted for in "Modern". I felt compelled to go beyond the 10/12 pattern for reasons of symmetry, but my 12/12 pattern is probably too "Modern" for you.
The problem with archetypes is there is no end to them some are concrete, very realistic, some are subtle but it depends on the amount of influence. If an archetype has more power people accept it and take it into consideration.

You know why Pluto is blamed for addictions? Because the power of Mars is shifted to Pluto and addiction stems from powerlessnes in one's life. Your actions are not giving any result you want, you will be in so much pain you will soothe yourself with addictions.

If you see the mythology Mars is the god of war, a true form of power while Hades is ruler of underworld, totally two different forms of power. Modern astrology found Hades enticing enough to assign him to be the ruler of Scorpio because Scorpio is a dark mysterious sign, this is all nonsense.

In traditional astrology addictions are primarily because of ill dignified Venus and it is very logical considering the planet is all about pleasure. Pleasure taken to an extreme with no control is addiction. Where is the need for archetypes that are missing as you say?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

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To get back on topic , the ancient Greeks had the Three Fates. The first was Clotho, "the spinner", who wove the life. The other two measured its length and ended it. So, the question would be, was this now relatively unknown goddess Clotho, the one who determined the actual events of one's life, or just the quality of one's character (as in "showing what you're made of")? Then, that quality would determine how you use your free-will to deal with life's challenges. And, no one should be blamed for having less than admirable character, or credited for accomplishments made possible by being of high character. That was Clotho's doing.
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Unread 08-01-2019, 05:33 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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To get back on topic , the ancient Greeks had the Three Fates. The first was Clotho, "the spinner", who wove the life. The other two measured its length and ended it. So, the question would be, was this now relatively unknown goddess Clotho, the one who determined the actual events of one's life, or just the quality of one's character (as in "showing what you're made of")? Then, that quality would determine how you use your free-will to deal with life's challenges. And, no one should be blamed for having less than admirable character, or credited for accomplishments made possible by being of high character. That was Clotho's doing.

You are not only a master but a grandmaster at dodging and distracting
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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