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  #326  
Unread 07-28-2019, 07:10 PM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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"Modern": If you don't see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.
"Traditional": Even if you see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.
^I thought this summed it up pretty well.
Of, course, knowing it's coming doesn't always mean you'll be able to handle it, but at least you can give it your best shot.

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  #327  
Unread 07-28-2019, 07:18 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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^I thought this summed it up pretty well.
Of, course, knowing it's coming doesn't always mean you'll be able to handle it, but at least you can give it your best shot.
Yes, agree.
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Unread 07-28-2019, 07:18 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

This is another case of talking passed each other.

On the issue of authority -

What makes the authors of the current available ancient texts axiomatic, when they themselves state that they are culling from previous sources? Why do you point blank say that "all the ancient astrologers are still authorities"?

On the issue of free will vs. fate -

Can you point to something concrete that demonstrates that the fate/free-will problem is encoded in the basic tenets and doctrines?

Quote:
but it is up to if you want to stick to the descriptions given by one particular astrologer for a particular placement or you want to mix all the descriptions from all the ancient astrologers.
Or, you can learn the basic tenets and doctrines (and not just follow the descriptions in a closed mix-and-match system) to come up with relevant prognostications for the time that you are actually practicing in.
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Unread 07-28-2019, 07:33 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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if a traiditional astrolger says there is more free will than fate I would not take him seriously as a traditional astrologer because you are going away from the central doctrine laid out by ancient astrologers.
The philosophy of an influential astrologer doesn't speak to the whole of his contemporaries or the entire tradition. Ptolemy was a reformist of astrology yet today we see him as one of the incontrovertible paragons of the tradition. (I actually remember one poster on here who was very angry at Ptolemy since he was the "inventor" of "traditional astrology" or something to that effect). Morin was another one for overhauling. Blind allegiance to tradition wasn't even the tradition for "traditional" astrologers. And this goes beyond the techniques and into their metaphysics etc.

I will reiterate my opinion that free-will is nestled in fate.
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  #330  
Unread 07-29-2019, 02:35 AM
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Should fate be feted, or ignored? Or, both? Or, neither?

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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:59 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Is Saturn the key-indicator regarding the timing and nature of what fate
holds in store? (Houses and Aspects included.)

Also, since fate is about what happens in the future, does living in the Now make it irrelevant?
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Unread 07-29-2019, 05:41 AM
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Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Practitioners of both "Traditionalistic* astrology and "Modernistic" astrology, are dependant upon the contributions of the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians. That includes the 12 equal Signs, and most of the Sign-imagery, as well as the use of the Ecliptic as the plane of measurement.
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  #333  
Unread 07-29-2019, 11:24 AM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

@lostinstars, why do you see someone's awful actions as fated?

It was curious how you presented the example with Hitler. It was destiny that he was denied , but often times when people are denied sething, it's because they are meant for something more. And often,if we come from fear , we put ourselves in such situations, aka self sabotage. Hitler had the potential to be a great leader, but he didn't commit those crimes cos he got rejected from University. He did it cos that's how far his consciousness went to. He was spiteful and paranoid and fearful. So he just acted out on it. I don't want to say that the millions he killed were meant to die, because that's cruel. Maybe it's one of those things where evil must happen for a greater good,altho I don't see this in that case.

But back then, people were still in such a low consciousness where they would fear everything unknown and try to destroy it. So in a sense it was meant to happen because he couldn't go through his own barriers. I think we are past that point of polarization and seperation.

Truth is he still had free will to keep applying , but he chose something else. So was that fated? Or was it just a consequence of his choices? Many people get rejected something for years but they never stop trying. Life is so colorful that I don't think we can ever pinpoint it.

I'm not denying that there is a greater plan for all and for us as a race, but sometimes what looks to people as fate is merely trial and error as we are evolvingm. And that's hard to accept from some people because what's done is done and you can't change it, so it's easier to believe it's fate when it was all us.

Removing fate from the equations just puts a greater pressure on us as a collective and as imdividuals. So it's normal as we evolve more to deny that in a sense.

I do believe there is fate, as I'm the outcome is always the same. If you are meant to die you will die, but will you die being tortured or will you die peacefully in your home surrounded by family, you know?

If you are meant to have a child, you will, one way or another. But will it be with someone who will leave you, or will it be with the love of your life?

I don't thing those things are fated. I think they are based on our choices. The more we make a choice out of love, the more the outcome will be loving. Actions we take now impact the future and set a path for us that we call fate. At any given time with awareness we can change the path aka destiny. But awareness ain't easy. It's very hard to achieve.

It's very complex but the world will always have mysteries that we will never figure out. And what we don't know is what we need to surrender. So in a sense both are true and both are false.

Neither is wrong neither is right.

But one this is certain in life and that's change. Many acient natioens believed in God's , nowadays not many do, becauae we don't need them. We became the gods in a sense. We don't sacrifice goats to make a god merciful so that we have crops and something to eat. We have control over that and on whatever we have control, we don't need destiny cos we make it ourselves. But on the things we don't have control, that's where destiny steps in.

And I think there will always be a part where we have no control, for the purpose of humbling us, and teaching us we don't know everything,for the purpose of being open to learn more.

We can only read in astrology what we already see in an individual and explain it with their chart. But we cannot make predictions of how this individual will turn out or how their life will turn out.


I will actually be very curious for you to read my chart with your perspective and techniques ,maybe this way j will understand better where you are coming from.
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  #334  
Unread 07-29-2019, 01:28 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post


I got married,

was hospitalized,

became a father

and many other things years before astrology entered my life
...all events marked by the astrological clock.
Anyway, you are welcome to your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by ardentika View Post


There isn't one astrological combination
that shows all of those life events.

Traditionally, CHRONOCRATOR techniques
for example usisng various TIME LORDS

are designed to specifically highlight ALL of those life events
in ancient times astrologers calculated TIME LORDS activity
without the aid of a computer
however
today
we have
software program DELPHIC ORACLE written by ZOIDSOFT
and
using the birth chart of George W Bush as an example
DELPHIC ORACLE calculates dates for eminence given Valens aphorisms
for the zodiacal releasing of the lot of spirit.

Using Time Lords in Delphic Oracle 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUilP6YuTGk

another clear illustration of TRADITIONAL TIME LORDS technique
this time using Johnny Carson natal
eminence and time lords explained - Hellenistic Astrology
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or-JF98q73Y&t=5s

Using the birth chart of Johnny Carson as an example
to examine the topic of eminence / fame in the nativity
and when one is likely to reach that peak if so indicated
using the technique of zodiacal releasing from the lot of spirit.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #335  
Unread 07-29-2019, 01:34 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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What makes the authors of the current available ancient texts axiomatic, when they themselves state that they are culling from previous sources? Why do you point blank say that "all the ancient astrologers are still authorities"?
People who study, practise and contribute to a field in my opinion can be called authorities. I'm no expert in the history of traditional astrology, I got the book by Chris Brennan. Once I'm done reading the book I will be in a better position to answer who was actual an authority and who was just a scribe.

All ancient astrologers are still authoriites because they studied astronomy, observed skies and recorded things. If you ask me how do I know, Arabs would not have developed Lots without having the basics, nor the mathematics to understand, practise and contribute to astrology.

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On the issue of free will vs. fate -

Can you point to something concrete that demonstrates that the fate/free-will problem is encoded in the basic tenets and doctrines?
When heavens moved things happened on the planet and in the lives of humans. Heavens influenced or caused events on earth. Humans can't make heavens move, so events are fated.

edit: If you can explain things happened in history based on planetary placements alone with no human agency that is also a good proof that things are fated.

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Or, you can learn the basic tenets and doctrines (and not just follow the descriptions in a closed mix-and-match system) to come up with relevant prognostications for the time that you are actually practicing in.
Not clear on what exactly you mean but I believe you need to have a philosophical framework or basis else you would not know where you are deviating from the tradition or in any field for that matter.
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  #336  
Unread 07-29-2019, 01:44 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Blind allegiance to tradition wasn't even the tradition for "traditional" astrologers. And this goes beyond the techniques and into their metaphysics etc.

I will reiterate my opinion that free-will is nestled in fate.
It is not blind allegiance but from personal experience and the validity of the ancient wisdom. I personally think intelligence of humans is overrated, berating something just becaues it is old is very silly.

You mean fate is responsible for your free will or the other way?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

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  #337  
Unread 07-29-2019, 01:54 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Not clear on what exactly you mean but I believe you need to have a philosophical framework or basis else you would not know where you are deviating from the tradition or in any field for that matter.
Essentially I'm highlighting a letter of the law vs. a spirit of the law approach with that statement.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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@lostinstars, why do you see someone's awful actions as fated?
I called Hitler's actions fated because I came across this article sometime back.

https://astrologicalmind.wordpress.c...e-natal-chart/

Every action you do has some consequence in your life but some actions are only meant for fate to unfold. When someone's actions influence on a global scale it is neither the person's ingenuity nor the person's caliber, he is an agent of fate.

That is why I said before Einstein is so overrated. His work was necessary to push the boundaries of science to understand about universe as well give birth to hydrogen bomb. Everyone has a role to play in the way fate unfolds, calling someone a genius or dumb has no significance.

I believe strongly with conviction that you can explain significant events in history with planetary placements.

I'm not ready to do readings yet, I will let you know once I'm ready.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Essentially I'm highlighting a letter of the law vs. a spirit of the law approach with that statement.
Ok, I get it now. I think there is some danger in it because spirit of a law could be different from one person to another based on several factors. Letter of the law can be objective and better.
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  #340  
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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It is not blind allegiance but from personal experience and the validity of the ancient wisdom. I personally think intelligence of humans is overrated, berating something just becaues it is old is very silly.

You mean fate is responsible for your free will or the other way?
I agree that dismissing something out of hand because it's old is stupid and short-sighted - throwing out the baby with the bathwater so to speak. But what passes for the tradition of western astrology isn't Holy Writ. Some adherents of traditionalism display a dogmatism which connotes that ancient wisdom is perfect, and I don't share that view. An innovation could also come from a deep understanding of a subject and knowing the laws that underlie it. Evolution of a craft, and not just a mere deviation (which is more abundant).

Fate is the dominant, within the confines of fate you have choice in the sense that you can make of your materials what you will. Say you have a Mars/Jupiter conjunction in Aries on the Midheaven. You were born in a social milieu that allowed you the opportunity to become a career soldier, entrepreneur, or a pioneering explorer/adventurer. The aspect will manifest one way or another, but there is a range that is possible. It is in this range where your are accorded choice.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:30 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Ok, I get it now. I think there is some danger in it because spirit of a law could be different from one person to another based on several factors. Letter of the law can be objective and better.
I can respect that view, and there are a lot of people in agreement that it is better for the majority to adhere to orthodoxy because it will result in less mistakes from a constituency who may not have the sufficient virtues (whether it be moral or intellectual) to live faithfully, if they were given the opportunity to freely interpret the law for themselves.

But, we know that fundamentalism has its dangers as well. ISIS is a current day example a strict letter of the law approach. And even then in physics it is demonstrated that the observer affects the outcome of experiments. We can't escape subjectivity and it can be dangerous to rely on an objective reading of law since there are many factors that makes the process insidiously subjective - on philological grounds and your interpretation of the meanings of words (you might think you are reading a word objectively but when you trace the etymology of a word it connotes a different meaning and resonance from your "objective" understanding), cultural, age, psychological state etc.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:34 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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But what passes for the tradition of western astrology isn't Holy Writ. Some adherents of traditionalism display a dogmatism which connotes that ancient wisdom is perfect, and I don't share that view. An innovation could also come from a deep understanding of a subject and knowing the laws that underlie it. Evolution of a craft, and not just a mere deviation (which is more abundant).
Very valid point. What innovation you are talking about in the case of traditional astrology? If you say psychology, then we do not need to discuss further on this point at least because I stated my position several times on this thread.

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Fate is the dominant, within the confines of fate you have choice in the sense that you can make of your materials what you will. Say you have a Mars/Jupiter conjunction in Aries on the Midheaven. You were born in a social milieu that allowed you the opportunity to become a career soldier, entrepreneur, or a pioneering explorer/adventurer. The aspect will manifest one way or another, but there is a range that is possible. It is in this range where your are accorded choice.
Fate may give you a choice on the path you would take but not on what you would become. That is why it is very difficult to see what a person will become even though there could be few possibliites. But you can explain only by looking back at your life matching with transits. I intend to do some research on key figures and friends but this may take really really long time.
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  #343  
Unread 07-29-2019, 02:55 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I can respect that view, and there are a lot of people in agreement that it is better for the majority to adhere to orthodoxy because it will result in less mistakes from a constituency who may not have the sufficient virtues (whether it be moral or intellectual) to live faithfully, if they were given the opportunity to freely interpret the law for themselves.

But, we know that fundamentalism has its dangers as well. ISIS is a current day example a strict letter of the law approach. And even in physics it is demonstrated that the observer affects the outcome of experiments. We can't escape subjectivity and it can be dangerous to rely on an objective reading of law since there are many factors that makes the process subjective - on philological grounds and your interpretation of the meanings of words (you might think you are reading a word objectively but when you trace the etymology of a word it connotes a different meaning and resonance from your "objective" understanding), cultural, age, psychological state etc.
I think we are digressing from the topic. There is nothing wrong in being dogmatic nor holding fundamental beliefs as long as no body gets hurt. Subjectivity always creeps in that is why we should stick to objective laws and methods. That is why I keep insisting that astrologers should only read what the chart says but not add their subjective opinion.

I'm not a huge fan of quantum mechanics, if subjectivity is everything why people are still struggling to improve their lives?

This is Saturn in me talking, the time is not yet here for humans to behave like gods. If there are some around they must be from the future.

The fact that planetary magic works is a testimony to the little control we have over our lives.
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Sorry to jump in again, but did everyone give their definition of fate and free will on the thread? Because I've been trying to figure it all out. Also @lostinstars, are you saying that the planets are agents of fate, as in they cause fate to unfold?

I figure the planetary configurations could just be correlates/markers for experiences. Further, in people's definitions of fate, is time a component then? I saw David say that quote about fate is the future, but living in the now might be the way out. Given my limited knowledge of physics, I'm just uncertain time is such an objective thing.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 02:59 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Very valid point. What innovation you are talking about in the case of traditional astrology? If you say psychology, then we do not need to discuss further on this point at least because I stated my position several times on this thread.
Kepler's introduction of the non-ptolemaic aspects which paved the way for interpreting birth charts using more intricate geometrical patterns, the various house systems that all are based on different astronomical criteria, the various triplicity systems as outlined Ptolemy and Lilly, the introduction of the 3 outer planets, Ptolemy's efforts to create an astrology based more on naturalistic grounds than mystical, Heliocentric astrology from the Magi astrologers, the increasing of lots, astrocartography (mentioned before), and this interesting theory that has yet to be really proved or tested -
A new perspective on the exaltation.

None of this is "psychological" per se. Some of these have been accepted into more mainstream practice, while the jury is still out on some of them. Time will tell. I really think there is a space for those focused on expanding the field into newer territory, and for those who focus on unearthing the ancient insights which accords for greater wisdom on this mysterious art. Sectarianism just seems to be a waste of time to me.

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Fate may give you a choice on the path you would take but not on what you would become. That is why it is very difficult to see what a person will become even though there could be few possibliites. But you can explain only by looking back at your life matching with transits. I intend to do some research on key figures and friends but this may take really really long time.
Interesting project, but you might want to expand your predictive repertoire with more than transits. Fortunately you'll encounter a lot of interesting techniques the more you dig into the past.
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Unread 07-29-2019, 03:00 PM
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Sorry to jump in again, but did everyone give their definition of fate and free will on the thread? Because I've been trying to figure it all out. Also @lostinstars, are you saying that the planets are agents of fate, as in they cause fate to unfold?

I figure the planetary configurations could just be correlates/markers for experiences. Further, in people's definitions of fate, is time a component then? I saw David say that quote about fate is the future, but living in the now might be the way out. Given my limited knowledge of physics, I'm just uncertain time is such an objective thing.
Yes to me planets are agents of fate. Living in the now may not stop things from happening to you but you may not perceive them so intensely. This is totally a different topic.
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Yes to me planets are agents of fate. Living in the now may not stop things from happening to you but you may not perceive them so intensely. This is totally a different topic.
Sorry, but this whole thread is about fate/free will. What are your definitions of those terms? I just had a conversation recently that intrigued me on these concepts.
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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I think we are digressing from the topic. There is nothing wrong in being dogmatic nor holding fundamental beliefs as long as no body gets hurt.
That's a can of worms that will further deviate from the topic of free will vs. fate, but I've always found that argument shallow.


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I'm not a huge fan of quantum mechanics, if subjectivity is everything why people are still struggling to improve their lives?
It's not a matter of being a fan or not (I don't take such a premise on board because I "like" it). I'm not sure why you juxtapose subjectivity with the ability to improve their lives. We aren't only our conscious awareness, and we are filled with contradictory impulses that often work at cross purposes. I won't go further since you want this to remain focused on the thread topic.
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  #349  
Unread 07-29-2019, 03:12 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Kepler's introduction of the non-ptolemaic aspects which paved the way for interpreting birth charts using more intricate geometrical patterns, the various house systems that all are based on different astronomical criteria, the various triplicity systems as outlined Ptolemy and Lilly, the introduction of the 3 outer planets, Ptolemy's efforts to create an astrology based more on naturalistic grounds than mystical, Heliocentric astrology from the Magi astrologers, the increasing of lots, astrocartography (mentioned before), and this interesting theory that has yet to be really proved or tested -
A new perspective on the exaltation.

None of this is "psychological" per se. Some of these have been accepted into more mainstream practice, while the jury is still out on some of them. Time will tell. I really think there is a space for those focused on expanding the field into newer territory, and for those who focus on unearthing the ancient insights which accords for greater wisdom on this mysterious art. Sectarianism just seems to be a waste of time to me.
If it is strictly mathematical and objective then I don't see why it should not be considered as innovation in traditional astrology. But whether to consider outer planets or not is up to an astrologer. I would not consider them for the sole reason that you are transferring attributes from traditional rulers to the new planets and if I do I can't hold the descriptions given by ancient astrologers as accurate. Then the whole corpus of knowledge is useless to me except techniques. And if a technique considers only seven planets on what basis I would decide which seven to consider if I add additional three. But if they are totally new techniques then I will be open to them.

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Interesting project, but you might want to expand your predictive repertoire with more than transits. Fortunately you'll encounter a lot of interesting techniques the more you dig into the past.
Yes, I agree, there are many interesting techniques. That is why it will take really long time.
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JUPITERASC (07-29-2019)
  #350  
Unread 07-29-2019, 03:19 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
would be useful if you would state the gist of that conversation
because
if you had read entire thread
then you would have noticed that
lostinstars has already frequently on this thread
stated personal beliefs on fate/free will et al
Alright, let me attempt to define fate with an analogy, but it's not my own.

Say there is a room with an ant walking across the floor. The ant is the human. Fate is the room and whatever is driving the ant to walk across the floor.

Side Note: Time might not be linear. A circle looks like a line when you can only see a segment of it. So this is not a perfect analogy.

Anyway, the ant walks across the room and thinks the room/environment is changing, but really it's the ant's perspective of the room that is changing. The room itself is still the same.

So, I was curious if this was the definition lostinstars was using for what fate is. My apologies for missing their definition. I had thought they'd said certain events and experiences were 'fated', but what does that mean exactly?
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