Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
In my opinion, rectification is invariably a "SWAG" ("Scientific Wild-*** Guess," a phrase I first saw used by nuclear engineers to describe their design methodology). That said, I used what was basically the method described in the original post to attempt rectification of my parents' birth charts, coming up with something that was "within the realm of reason." I won't go into the details, but in my mother's case, transiting Saturn sitting almost exactly on her Ascendant at the time of her death, and in my father's case, transiting Sun and Venus directly on his Midheaven at the time of his second marriage (both times accurately recorded) looked like signature events. Not enough by itself to take to the bank, but a good start.
Interesting example of rectification using PRE-NATAL EPOCH
aka TRUTINE OF HERMES :smile:
at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=877545&posted=1#post877545
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member


Chris Brennan with useful comments on reliability of times of birth

THE ASTROLOGY PODCAST
LIVE STREAMING TEST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7NPihS6xjU
and
how checking using basic rectification is procedure he continually researches :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
With many thanks to petosiris :smile:
for the following example rectification using THRASYLLUS method

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=894943&postcount=343


OM8y0cf.png


Another example, with the newly elected Mexican President - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Lopez_Obrador,_Andres_Manuel

According to the AA source, the birth occurred at 2:00, quite unlikely, like most rounded off births. Let's use Thrasyllus' method again.

1) We determine the ascensional degrees from the Sun to the Moon. We mark 81 as the solar gnomon.
2) We determine the ascensional degrees from the degree opposite the Sun - this is 23.
3) We multiply 23 by 12 and again by the hour of the nativity, with the fractions. Since the birth occurred at the beginning of the ninth hour - 23 x 12 x 8 - 360 x 6 = 48 which is less than the solar gnomon.
4) We add 7 minutes to the time of birth and with 23 x 12 x 8.12 - 360 x 6 = 81 and we get the ''real'' Ascendant.

Jupiter is Lord of the Year and in the place of Good Daimon with Fortune. The Lightbringer also profects to its exaltation. Note that he was not elected with the same profections 12 years ago. Since the Ruler of the Peak was in the place of the Bad Daimon in the 2005 solar revolution, in this Revolution she is with Jupiter to the degree making a phase.

Since the rising time of Libra is 32.5, doubled it makes the stellium operative. And since the rising time of Gemini is 33 and of Virgo is 31.25, it makes the Jupiter square Mars productive of rank, politics and authority (as are the rising times of Virgo and Capricorn for that partile trine). And since half of the rising time of Gemini is 16.5 and 4 times the years of Jupiter = 64.5, it makes it even more operative.

And since the year is multiple of 5, which is the special interval point of Venus (inferior trine), it makes the profection of Jupiter and Fortune even stronger than the last one, and according to Valens ''The configurations of the stars and their aspects with each other (especially the aspects with the Lot of Fortune) are effective in the chronocratorships which are in harmony. (The whole is seen and arises from the aspects of the Lot of Fortune and from its ruler'' - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
hello there.
i will appreciate it someone can help me with this.
I was almost certain that birth time was 7:10-12 p.m however was qtold by someone
that its actually 6:30 p.m. I have attached both charts.
I am a doctor by profession.
Attained higher qualification as well.
Currently working in a job that i no longer want to
but do not have any other opportunity at this moment so cannot leave.
I am currently residing in my motherland
(different from my birth country).
If any further information is required i’d happily
Plenty of information on this thread for you regarding natal chart rectification
if you read over the many examples :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
A Ptip from Ptolemy :smile:

In Ptolemy,
masculine planets make male babies, feminine planets make female babies.

But as sexist as trad goes, masculine planets are also taken as generally better, more active,
and generating their good or bad effects earlier in life.

Morning planets can indicate first-born siblings
compared to evening planets indicating younger siblings,
because of this.

It is also used by Ptolemy to judge sexuality
(if Sun, Moon, Mars and Venus are predominantly masculine in a female chart in most of these ways, they make lesbians,
in a male chart, an ''adulterous male'', and vice versa with feminine planets,
homosexual in a male chart, an ''adulterous female'' in a female chart).

He also says that Venus under the rays (or combust)
makes the woman play ''the part of mistress'', though I haven't checked that out.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.

ANIMODAR RECTIFICATION :smile:



1. Examine the preceding syzygy, whether it was a new moon or a full moon.


2. If the preceding syzygy was a new moon, observe its degree at the time of the nativity.


3. If the preceding syzygy was a full moon by night, we observe the degree of the syzygy. By day, we observe the degree opposite the syzygy, which is the degree of the luminary above the horizon (in that case the Sun).


4. Observe the degree at the approximate time of the nativity, and give a point to any of the following planets with rulership over the degree at the time of birth (see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3A*.html#note9)

OJUpA8e.png


5. Give a point to any planet in the same sign as the degree or in sign with some aspect (sextile, square, trine or opposition) to it.


6. If one star is familiar with the degree in all or most of these ways, whatever degree of its sign it is passing at the time of birth, the same numerical degree is rising (Asc) or culminating (Mc) at the time of birth.


7. If two or more stars are predominators, observe the one that is closer to the approximate time. If it so happens that we do not have the nearest hour of birth, we can establish it through combination of accidental qualities.
The foregoing rectification is for time with approximate hour.
 

theV

Well-known member
Recieving a contract from abroad in 24 of June at 14:00. The moon is in Pisces 23 and the Sun is in cancer 2 degree and the Ascendant was in Libra 17 degree which makes sense since I have pisces in the 9th, Cancer in the 12th which rules foreign affairs, and Libra in the fourth home.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Recieving a contract from abroad in 24 of June at 14:00. The moon is in Pisces 23 and the Sun is in cancer 2 degree and the Ascendant was in Libra 17 degree which makes sense since I have pisces in the 9th, Cancer in the 12th which rules foreign affairs, and Libra in the fourth home.
First we need to locate the Moon in the unrectified chart, let us call it the ‘base chart’. Is it above or below the horizon?
Next we need to calculate the distance from Moon to Ascendant (if the Moon is under the horizon) and from Moon to Descendant (if the Moon is above the horizon)
After that we refer to the table provided by Lilly (If the Moon is above the horizon every twelve degrees between Moon and Descendant is incremented by a day, beginning with 258 days gestation. If the Moon is below the horizon each 12 degrees between Moon and Ascendant is incremented by one day, beginning with a gestation period of 273 days – you can refer to the article The Moon and Gestation here at Altair Astrology for more detail)
Once we have the number of days of gestation we need to find the day. Convert the birth date into the Julian day and then subtract the gestation period, then convert this Julian Day back to the Georgian date. The Calendar Converter at fourmilab can do this, but most astrology software should have this function.
Once we have the date we can refer to an ephemeris and see if the Moon is indeed near the Ascendant degree of the base chart.
If it is, then we can use the rectify function of our astrology programme to enter the Moon’s position as the Ascendant for the day found.
What is the Moon’s position for the conception chart? We note this, then we recalculate our base chart with this degree as the Ascendant and note what the birth time would be for this new position. In fact this chart is now our new ‘base chart’ and we can use it for checking primary directions.
That is the Trutine of Hermes
a useful rectification technique from antiquity

generally known as the Prenatal Epoch :smile:

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.
....Known as "Trutine of Hermes,"
from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:
.....The place of the Moon at conception
becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point....
But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law
for while the
Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch
the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch
was the place of the Moon at birth
....a very remarkable interchange of factors E.H. Bailey.
I am trying to use Lilly's way of rectifiying using the conception day, But I am confused what is my exact conception day is. I am following his method stated in this article:

https://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.c...e-trutine-of-hermes-in-lilly-merchants-chart/
Lillys rectification source is known as THE TRUTINE OF HERMES
aka PRENATAL EPOCH
and the following detailed instructions
on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
the purpose is determining/establishing the Ascendant :smile:
I am trying to rectify using my prenatal epoch. My moon is below the horizon and is increasing in light which means according to this
Moon below the earth and increasing in light.

Period of gestation is 273 days plus "x".

"Count is to AC, because increasing and is 115 degrees. This divided by 13 equals 9 days the period is lengthened. Hence "Epoch Date" falls 9 days before "Index Date."

So I am supposed to count from the ASC to the Moon 13 degrees and see how many days are there?
Instructions for calculation of TRUTINE OF HERMES that Lilly used
are stated in great detail

at the link I provided http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
where it is titled THE PRENATAL EPOCH
HOWEVER
the Trutine of Hermes is aka The Prenatal Epoch :smile:
Certainly the method requires time to process
and so it is simply a matter of taking time to read, study
and then follow those instructions
@ JupiterAsc Yes, I do understand the instruction. But I am not sure whether I calculated the degree well. I started from 6 degree leo and counted + 13 degree until I reached Sagittarius. But I ended up in 8 degree sagittarius starting from 6 degree leo. I don't know now if it is 9 days or 10 days
if you not only understood, but also followed correctly
the instructions at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
then all you can do is revise your calculations
because the instructions are very clear and detailed

First image is the possible conception day when the moon was in 25 degree cancer. and the second possible concetion day makes the moon in 7 degree leo close to my actual ascendant.
I put Sagittarius as the ascendant to both conception chart according to this article:

https://altairastrology.wordpress.c...rectification-trutine-of-hermes-and-animodar/
I recommend to study and read the article at the link I provided
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
titled THE PRENATAL EPOCH - simply another name for THE TRUTINE OF HERMES
the instructions are comprehensive, detailed regarding all eventualities :smile:
so take time to process these
The ASC and the Moon are 119 degree apart. 119 divide on 13 gives off 9 which means 9 days added to 273 it is 282. The day of conception would then be 23 NOV 1994.

Quote:
"In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased."

"Always remember that since the Moon at birth becomes AC or DC at Epoch and vice versa,"

We put the natal moon as the ASC of epoch chart and the epoch moon would be in cancer which means the natal asc is cancer.
So I checked my paper copy of AMERICAN EPHEMERIS for 23 November 1994
and
on that date, Moon was indeed in Tropical Cancer :smile:
but only until 4PM GMT
because at that time
Moon ingressed Tropical Leo on the day in question
nevertheless
presumably you have already created a chart
for your location
that shows your Pre-natal Epoch chart Moon
is same degree as your natal ascendant
Yes, JupiterAsc. The chart below shows the Epoch ASC in the degree of the natal Moon
which makes the Epoch Moon still in Cancer.

Thus, making my ASC in CANCER AND NOT LEO!!!!!
MEANING I WAS BORN ON 2:54 AND NOT 3:45!
clearly then, a definitive example

of successful PRENATAL EPOCH aka TRUTINE OF HERMES rectification :smile:
so now
your rectified natal chart
as rectified by yourself
following a bona fide ancient rectifrication technique
could be uploaded to this thread
which in my opinion would make an excellent rectification sticky
more appropriate for traditional board because Prenatal Epoch
aka Trutine of Hermes
is an ancient traditional technique
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
sourced from the following thread link:smile:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1017195#post1017195


11-30-2019, 06:00 AM
petosiris
user_online.gif

Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,621


Re: Animodar
I have found a method that is more physical than this and does not involve the preceding syzygy or numerology.

Quote:
36. Nativities
When the moment of nativity is known, it can be examined instead of the moment of conception, the hours must be determined with knowledge of accidental qualities, and with one of the planets in perfect configuration with the Hour-Marker or the Midheaven at every conception and nativity
So, let the Ascendant or the Midheaven be in perfect conjunction, sextile, square, trine or opposition with one of the seven planets regardless of other factors.

We might theorize why this is so - conceptions and births of humans are powerful moments in nature that require the strongest influence of a planet on angles.
UPDATE :smile:
Yes, nowadays I ignore the syzygy and focus on the planet which makes the closest exact aspect to the Asc (and Dsc) or the Mc (and Ic). A major technical difference between this and the Ptolemaic Animodar is that mine requires a planet to be at the angle or in aspect, while Ptolemy seems to allow it to be disjunct, only requiring the numeric degree it has passed within its sign to be the same (it is like an exact semi-sextile or inconjunct modern ''aspect''). This does not seem physical to me, but rather numerological and uncharacteristic of Ptolemy's intentions of astrology.

So I recommend that one follows a more limited approach with regard to aspects, but more broad approach with regard to rulers. Often, the two methods (the Ptolemaic Animodar and the Petosiris Animodar) will give the same results, since they are based on similar physical reasoning.

I recommend one step - a planet in conjunction, sextile, square, trine or opposition with an angle. Take for example the chart of Ptolemy's second biggest fan (after me) - Girolamo Cardano - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cardano,_Girolamo

There is no planet in aspect with an angle at 18:29 when the Ascendant is at 6° 22' Taurus. But noticing that Jupiter is nearby, we can put him exactly at the Ascendant giving us 18:20 time, or a 9 minute rectification. Jupiter rising rather than declining may better explain his life and fame.
consider using the foregoing
instead of the following

1. Examine the preceding syzygy, whether it was a new moon or a full moon.
2. If the preceding syzygy was a new moon, observe its degree at the time of the nativity.
3. If the preceding syzygy was a full moon by night, we observe the degree of the syzygy. By day, we observe the degree opposite the syzygy, which is the degree of the luminary above the horizon (in that case the Sun).
4. Observe the degree at the approximate time of the nativity, and give a point to any of the following planets with rulership over the degree at the time of birth (see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3A*.html#note9)

OJUpA8e.png


5. Give a point to any planet in the same sign as the degree or in sign with some aspect (sextile, square, trine or opposition) to it.
6. If one star is familiar with the degree in all or most of these ways, whatever degree of its sign it is passing at the time of birth, the same numerical degree is rising (Asc) or culminating (Mc) at the time of birth.
7. If two or more stars are predominators, observe the one that is closer to the approximate time. If it so happens that we do not have the nearest hour of birth, we can establish it through combination of accidental qualities. The foregoing rectification is for time with approximate hour.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

A detailed introduction to birth chart rectification

which is used to find your birth time and Ascendant
when it is otherwise unknown or uncertain :smile:


How to Rectify Your Birth Chart and Find Your Correct Birth Time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkQZ9o0oIxI



Many techniques in astrology require an accurate birth time to work
and this is why rectification can be crucial
or even necessary
for people who don't know what time they were born.
In this video we try to provide
a pretty detailed introduction to the subject
and outline our specific approach
which emphasizes how to find the correct rising sign
by using whole sign houses
and some related techniques.
This is the video version of episode 169 of The Astrology Podcast
featuring astrologers Chris Brennan
Leisa Schaim
and
Patrick Watson.
There is a full written outline
and a higher quality audio version of this episode available
on the podcast website
 

david starling

Well-known member
Here's a general question: Can a method for rectifying the Angles be tested, by using Charts with birthtimes of KNOWN accuracy, and applying the method AS IF the birthtime were UNKNOWN to see if the result is accurate?
 

petosiris

Banned
Here's a general question: Can a method for rectifying the Angles be tested, by using Charts with birthtimes of KNOWN accuracy, and applying the method AS IF the birthtime were UNKNOWN to see if the result is accurate?

Yes, you can test techniques in this way. A second person gives only a rising sign (for conception) or an approximate time (or with no alternatives for animodar). I've rectified a couple USA charts within 1-2 minutes (with non-rounded times) with conceptions when given only a rising sign and date from astrodatabank.
 
Last edited:

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Yes, you can test techniques in this way.
A second person gives only a rising sign (for conception)
or an approximate time
(or with no alternatives for animodar).
I've rectified a couple USA charts within 1-2 minutes
(with non-rounded times)
with conceptions
when given only a rising sign
and date from astrodatabank.
by the way, re: astrodatabank
keep in mind that
Even AA Rating Charts in Astro-Databank
of People Born After 1930
Are Highly Likely to be Wrong :smile:
https://www.ayurastro.com/articles/...stro-databank-are-highly-likely-to-be-wrong#/
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

Anyway, there are like some 50+ surviving manuscripts of Ptolemy's work,
and no, Ptolemy did not write them,
rather other people copied them from other manuscripts, including the original manuscript.
All manuscripts have variations
and deviations from one extent to another,
including the chapters being arranged out of order
and amendations and deletions to the text.

So, now we can see how doctrines and concepts get messed up in translation
and misunderstanding over the centuries
(and even recent days apparently).

As I mentioned on another thread
Ptolemy retells a method of calculating a Conception Chart
and from this Conception Chart, Ptolemy claimed
one could determine the Native's future rank or station in life,
whether the birth would be a single birth, or a multiple birth (like twins)
and whether the child would be born deformed or have birth defects.

Someone copying Ptolemy's manuscript re-arranged the order of the chapters
to make it appear that Ptolemy was using the Natal Chart
to determine the Native's rank and station in life
....instead of the Conception Chart.

Fast forward a few centuries,
and you have Jewish and Arab astrologers pulling out their hair
....or maybe their beards
...trying to figure out why they keep failing when using Ptolemy's...on a Natal Chart
....because they don't understand that Ptolemy was using a Conception Chart.....

snipped
.......So here we all are
.....centuries later
.....still trying to figure out how to determine a person's rank and fame in life....

snipped
......From 1900 BCE to 1700 CE, the Human Race actually got really dumb
before they started to get smart
(or I suppose less dumb), and they still ain't really all that....
snipped
.....Like Math and Science, in Astrology, you can get the right result for the wrong reasons.
I have...issues with the conception chart.
Because I don't think, based on personal experience, that it actually works.
I tested it with all three,
and I'd have to go back a couple of years to my arguments with JUPITERASC
about the prenatal Epoch to find my replies...
But it worked in none of the times.
My third was conceived on Dec. 25th 2004.
If I remember correctly, her "conception chart" was off by at least a month.
Good idea to read Abu Bakr
and then deduce as to whether the techniques he describes
to find the time of projection of seed into the womb
aka Pre-Natal Epoch aka Conception Chart
are applicable or not
- in particular to the charts you are studying
i.e.
PERSIAN NATIVITIES
Vol II Ben Dykes Translation

ABU BAKR
On Nativities :smile:
page 85
Chapter 1.2 On the projection of seed into the womb.
Page 89
Chapter 1.3 On the native's stay in the mother's womb
page 91
Chapter 1.4 On knowing the namudar and the hour of the projection of seed into the womb
First Method
Second Method
Another way concerning the native's stay in the mother's belly [Ben Dykes notes that '
….This seems to be a way of determining
whether the birth was premature or not, to help in judging the date of conception.
See Appendix C....']
page 93 to page 101
Chapter 1.5 Detailed planetary disposition of the months
Ben Dykes notes that:

'...Here we see more clearly
that this is the astrological equivalent of genetics, since the native's attitudes and abilities
will be signified while already in the womb
and not through teaching or experience after birth.
This must be why Abu Bakr reports
that these months are considered by some to be more important than the nativity
– at least in terms of the native's behavior and character....'
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Hi!
Jupiterasc, I send you a private message here.
Thanks
on another thread
you said
and I quote from your other thread :smile:

Hello!
I have a same problem, in Western astrology I have Leo ascendant, and Pisces moon.
In Vedic I have Cancer ascendant and aquarius moon.

Some astrologer says when we see the personality , we see the western astrology .
But when we see the future ( what will be come in the future in the family or job, or in love) that' s better in the vedic astrology.

Can you help me something?
I' m new here in this forum.
How can I write a question in the forum like you this post?

I want to take this question is this astrologer forum :

What was Stan Kirsch rising sign?
Can you help me?
Thank
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
*

a recent example from past few days
of a member checking their chart
using method at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
which has often been discussed on this thread
Decreasing in light....

so I did my rectifcation all wrong...

I need to try again:whistling:
So I remade my epoch chart with the proper rules....
well done for persevering, you are clearly genuinely interested :smile:
and so
the following chart
is your Epoch chart
when using method at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
prenatal_epoch.png









des is at 2 degrees sag....

recitfying my chart forward to 2 degrees gemini rising...

which indicates
that according to this particular rectification method

birth occurred approximately sixteen minutes later
than the original given time
which is entirely possible

 

Maryb3

Well-known member
Thanks for the excellent post.
My eldest daughter had two different times born. Sag.
I finally figured it out when Uranus was square.
My other daughter has Gemini ascendant.
Both are 26 degrees.
Lol ! Both showed up within two days at my home.
Uranus was 26 Pisces.
Sudden !

I have noticed this is her ascendant. When Pluto crossed ! Her life completely changed and she did too.
 
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