Sidereal Astrology: Let's Open the Debate

However, to use any system correctly, we have to first ascertain how it's "lens" works.........ie. the context in which the chart is being interpreted.....But, I've not yet found anything which explains that in a way I can understand.

EJ

Click to expand...

Well personally I don't think you have to use a much different method to interpret a sidereal chart, just know that the signs are in a different place. I think people are running into trouble by suddenly trying to change their entire paradigm, when all that is really required is that you understand that some of the times were incorrect in the tropical system. Basically, your chart is the same, just take those little tropical umbrellas off it!!

It is notable that most of the planets will still be in the same houses...but I think knowing which signs are in which house does make a difference. Seeing the midheaven change in my sidereal chart has made a difference for me.

Hi Everyone.

Here is a very interesting link on wikipedia which lists the Suns transits in signs according to Tropical Zodiac, Sidereal and observed by astronomers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac

Also the astronomical data can be observed on Google Earth using Night Sky.

Though the astronomical data is similar to Sidereal astrology, there are still a lot of differences in the number of days the sun stays in a particular sign.

Also I read somewhere a lot of Tropical Astrology was used by the Romans and a lot was lost after the decline of the Roman Empire. Of course during that time around 285 AD. (The most widely accepted date) is when Sidereal and Tropical Astrologers agree to be the zero point of Aries. So we have a 24 degree shift currently and is considered to be the end of the Piscean Age (dark age) and the dawn of the Aquarian age.

According to this theory The Aquarius Age officially begins around 2450 AD.

Now if you consider Sidereal Astrology the concept of these ages die down, as sidereal will always consider the 0 point of Aries. The fixed stars will always have the same position.

However according to Tropical astrology the original zero point of Aries (vernal equinox) coincides with o degree Aries around 285 AD,which is the start of the Piscean Age. So now we have ages roughly every 2000-2500 years due to the precision of the equinoxes and the current shift of 24 degrees in signs.

Hi

Well whether you use tropical or sidereal astrology the signs do not change on an exact day in the Gregorian calendar...i think it was last year on the tropical ephemeris when the Sun didn't go into Scorpio until the 25th- barely in time for halloween lol. It wouldn't make sense to expect the sidereal ephemeris to conform to exact calendar dates either, since that is an approximation reserved for newpapers.

As far as I can tell, the Romans did little for astrology other than lending the planets names based on their spiffy Gods. Astrology has been around since the Babylonian and Egyptian empires. Off topic slightly- I think it does a disservice to ourselves and others to name recently discovered celestial objects after Greco-Roman myths then expect the influence of the found sphere to conform to the myth/fantasy exactly. I love to be able to just "look up" the answer as much as the next person, but it's really nothing more than intellectual laziness, and is not in the spirit of scientific enquiry. If a baby is named Artemis, she may be beautiful and inspired but that doesn't mean she's going to be a hunter...names have a shaping effect but are not definitive of character ultimately.

I do not think we need to "throw out the baby with the bath water", if you know how to use progressions, and other means of chart analysis etc, there's no reason techniques like that cannot be applied to a sidereal chart.

Cheers!!

Well yes, progressions and many other methods are very much applicable to a sidereal chart. However, I am still solving the mystery of the Tropical zodiac.

I believe sidereal is absolute, indicates where you come from and can be useful for timing and accurate predictions. It is based on constellations and these stars do not move based on the relative position of the earths rotation and revolution.

So whats the significance of Tropical zodiac. Since the signs, house position differ the interpretation will differ and still there are plenty of sites and people who use the Tropical Zodiac.

In fact since the tropical zodiac uses the Sun as the main star, there is a difference between solar day and a sidereal day which is 3 minute and 56 seconds. In fact that is why we have 365.25 days in a year and a leap year exists primarily due to this effect.

So tropical zodiac is based on the Sun which is based on solar time whereas Sidereal is based on the constellations which do not move with respect to the relative motion of the earth and considers Sidereal time which does not have to account for the difference.

So these systems are based on different belief systems which is the cause of all the confusion. Interestingly I might consider the Tropical zodiac as what is in limelight or what gains focus rather than an absolute interpretation.

samsum78 said:

.......So these systems are based on different belief systems which is the cause of all the confusion. Interestingly I might consider the Tropical zodiac as what is in limelight or what gains focus rather than an absolute interpretation.

Click to expand...

Hi again everyone,

I'm still hung-up on the symbolic purpose of the two systems

When the Greeks started the tropical system (around 285 AD, with 0 degrees Aries at 0 degrees Aries sidereal?), they knew about the precession of the equinoxes........and were attempting to circumvent the problem of calculating it without computers.........This resulted in the "birth" of the tropical zodiac, which broke from "tradition" by introducing an earth-based timing system to the steller-based sidereal system.......But, what might that change/birth symbolise?

For example, if the sidereal/stellar zodiac symbolises Humanity's cycle of evolution through the "Great Year", the tropical/solar zodiac is a frozen snapshot of it at a particular point in time/space (285 AD/0 degrees Aries)......perhaps signifying/marking the begining of our development from unconscious to conscious tools of the Cosmos......(with a return to sidereal astrology presumably being a backward evolutionary step).

EJ

I kinda still agree that we are in tune with at least the ages, because it does feel like it. The Piscean Age started around 285 AD and it was very much an orthodox belief system until science showed some of the hidden truths. But even great scientists never were able to prove their theories easily against orthodox religious beliefs.

The East was highly orthodox too with values and some principles that were adopted without really knowing their meaning and tradition being developed on beliefs.

It took revolutions and sacrifice to get independence to most nations.

But technology is showing the way as it has been able to show things to people beyond imagination and is still in its infancy. However in the Aquarian age religion and science will be able to co exist harmoniously and though this has not happened yet, its on its way but usually such things do not happen pleasantly without deeper understanding.

The same with Astrology as during this time many people believed in unproven theories until astronomy proved that earth is not at the center of the universe. Even the sun revolves around the Milky way and milky way galaxy revolves around some thing else (not proven yet).

I do not think Sidereal is going backwards. The vedic system is based on sidereal astrolgy on constellations and it has existed for thousands of years. However interpretation is still an art and many astrologers still find it hard to be specific in their interpretation probably due to too many theories. It is said that the people who derived the system say that the future of each individual can be accurately predicted.

Tropical System may not be the best predictive tool as far as timing is considered but it is still based on the theory of solar time. Since the sun represents the soul, it probably defines how we are evolving and where we are leading towards. What might be interesting between these two systems is when the difference in signs will be 90 degrees or at the beginning of the Sagittariun age.

samsum78 said:

..The Piscean Age started around 285 AD and it was very much an orthodox belief system until science showed some of the hidden truths.....The East was highly orthodox too with values and some principles that were adopted without really knowing their meaning and tradition being developed on beliefs........It took revolutions and sacrifice to get independence to most nations.

Click to expand...

Perhaps suggesting that the tropical system symbolises the emergence/birth of (our awareness of) freewill/individuality...........breaking with the traditional/sidereal view that our lives are governed solely by fate/the will of the gods.

If so, sidereal astrology might focus upon what cannot be changed in our character during this lifetime and upon accurately predicting fated/unavoidable events.......appealing particularly to those who see astrology as a predictive tool rather than a route to self-development.

.......Even the sun revolves around the Milky way and milky way galaxy revolves around some thing else (not proven yet).

Click to expand...

Or perhaps as Jesus said.......I am the Sun/Son; I am the Way. No-one can come to the Father (arrive at the Source) except through Me (the perfected Soul).

.....The vedic system is based on sidereal astrology on constellations and it has existed for thousands of years....It is said that the people who derived the system say that the future of each individual can be accurately predicted.

Click to expand...

My (uninitiated/ill-informed) view of vedic astrology is that it excels in it's accuracy of predictions, but is based upon fate rather than freewill....which seems to support the possibility that the tropical system looks at the native through the "lens of freewill".

...Since the sun represents the soul, it probably defines how we are evolving and where we are leading towards. What might be interesting between these two systems is when the difference in signs will be 90 degrees or at the beginning of the Sagittarian age.

Click to expand...

Makes sense to me, Samsum...........And, if we look at the symbolism of the crucification in the New Testament, (I think) Jesus had his sagittarian thighs broken to finally enable the Soul/Christ spirit to be free of the cross of matter.......until then, the pinned piscean feet and strength of the aquarian/capricorn lower legs promised endless suffering.


EJ

I am first and foremost a Western Tropical astrologer, because it is what I know best and it works for me so well. But, I don't think that Western and Vedic are mutually exclusive. I definitely think that each represents a different perspective on human experience. From what little I know of Vedic, it seems to work more at a spirit and soul level, while Western works on a more earthly, mundane level.
Someday I'd like to learn more about Vedic.
Also, one thing that irritates me is when people trying to disprove astrology bring up the Western/Vedic "inconsistency". There are varying types of geometry, and no one tries to disprove that science by saying, "Eucledean and Non-Eucledean geometries are different in that they don't agree on the nature of parallel lines, therefore the science of geometry is hogwash." No! noone says that.
I don't know why it is so hard for some people to accept that there are multiple perspectives of reality.

Well the main difference in Western Vedic astrology is the tropical/sidereal difference as to the world Western astrology is most famously referred to as Tropical astrology.

The problem in disproving astrology is the fact that when telescopes were discovered the position of the planets were different as to what the astrologers referred. The astrologers did not explain the facts clearly. Many western astrologers believed the earth was at the center of the universe.
Astronomy proved this fact wrong.

The sidereal concept of time is not based on the solar time and that's why the concept of free will may not be very evident in sidereal or vedic astrology as the SUN is the closest celestial star on Earth and this energy has more influence on way things occur on Earth.

The year is 365.24... days based on solar time. Millions of years ago this number was different. So astrology will be different in that case.

A lot has to be clear before people accept facts in astrology.

samsum78 said:

Well the main difference in Western Vedic astrology is the tropical/sidereal difference as to the world Western astrology is most famously referred to as Tropical astrology.

The problem in disproving astrology is the fact that when telescopes were discovered the position of the planets were different as to what the astrologers referred. The astrologers did not explain the facts clearly. Many western astrologers believed the earth was at the center of the universe.
Astronomy proved this fact wrong.

The sidereal concept of time is not based on the solar time and that's why the concept of free will may not be very evident in sidereal or vedic astrology as the SUN is the closest celestial star on Earth and this energy has more influence on way things occur on Earth.

The year is 365.24... days based on solar time. Millions of years ago this number was different. So astrology will be different in that case.

A lot has to be clear before people accept facts in astrology.

Click to expand...

Actually, the main difference between Tropical and Sidereal astrology lies in how the zodiac is demarcated. I am just beginning to study this. There alot of mathematical fine points that I am studying. But this is my understanding of the basics in a very small nutshell.

The Tropical Zodiac begins at the Vernal Equinox, also known as the Aries point, the first day of spring. This is the point where the ecliptic intersects the equator. It is a point in time. The mathematically demarcated signs of this zodiac do not match up with the constellations in the sky.

The Sidereal Zodiac begins at a point in space. It is measured from Spica (Virgo 30), or alternately from Aldeberan and Antares (Taurus 15-Scorpio 15). The signs of this zodiac are pegged more closely to the constellations in the sky.

There are many, many more fine points to each system. And there are valid arguments in favor of each. I think that both are valid, and each one is relevant and symbolizes a different plane of consciousness.

There are so many competing and seemingly conflicting theories in the world of science. I use the example of Euclidean vs. Non-Euclidean geometries. These are two very different theories, yet they are both accepted without de-validating the science of geometry. Maybe someday both Tropical and Vedic systems will both be accepted as different facets of the spiritual science of astrology.

I am slightly swaying away from the topic though it is remotely related

The Sidereal Zodiac begins at a point in space. It is measured from Spica (Virgo 30), or alternately from Aldeberan and Antares (Taurus 15-Scorpio 15). The signs of this zodiac are pegged more closely to the constellations in the sky.

Click to expand...

Its interesting you brought up Aldeberan and Anteras. These are classified as Red giant stars now. This means they have exhausted the helium in the core and only have hydrogen. These royal stars can become supernovas any time and burst into a nebulae and convert to a white dwarf or neutron star or black holes. It will still be thousands or millions of years but Anteras has been a red star for a while so it can happen anytime even in a few thousand years. How will this affect astrology. Most likely the next brightest star takes on in the sign, but will it have royal status and the same effect?

Also since the universe is dynamic and young stars are born supposedly in the largest black hole of the milky way near Sagittarius.

Astrology works based on a solar system but divine energy beyond this universe may be much powerful, which can defy astrology. However one may need to tap it. Probably that's what explains faith.

I'm glad this subject came up. I was spending a good bit of time there for a while trying to understand hindu astrology better. I'll say this, they've got us beat hands down in the prediction department. Ask a hindu astrologer when you will get married and without batting an eyelash, they'll tell you the day you are getting married. If you ask a western astrologer when you'll get married, we'll argue for 3 weeks about which house and planets to use, and still not be able to give an answer. The way we practice astrology is a reflection of our culture.
I have very little knowlege of hindu astrology, but there is one thing I like about it a lot: they seem to have come to a concensous about what techniques work. This leads me into an area of western astrology that I respect,dislike & like all at the same time: we don't substantiate any of our claims with research and we agree on very little besides the basics. Everyone gets to have their say and no one is right or wrong. Even when western astrology is confronted with facts, we ignore the proof and pretend it doesn't exist. I would say that Michel Gauquelin statistically proved that a high percentage of doctors are born with mars in the 12th, yet that is not something that would be mentioned in most astrology cookbooks. Mr. Gauquelin himself lamented that astrologers wouldn't pay any attention to the studies he had done because they contridicted the teachings of classical astrology.

On the other hand maybe that is the beauty of western astrology. It's just one big messy goo with very few widely accepted principles.

I think we could learn a lot from hindu astrology. They have some mind blowing techniques or systems that aren't used at all in western astrology. They can take a period of time and divide it into smaller and smaller periods.
While I have respect and appreciation for the creative messiness of western astrology, I would be more than happy to join a team of astrological researchers and test some of our claims. I think it would be great if we tested some ideas to the point that we could agree on some things.

Hi lilly,

I think we could learn a lot from hindu astrology. They have some mind blowing techniques or systems that aren't used at all in western astrology. They can take a period of time and divide it into smaller and smaller periods.

Click to expand...

This system which you are referring to is known as the Vimoshottari dasa system for timing of events and is based on the 27 constellations or nakshatras. There is a mapping available on the wiki for the vedic and western names. These are fixed stars with respect to the Earth and that's why its an absolute system for timing events. It is based on the life of a human which is considered to be 120 years in this age and should be applied to a Sidereal chart. This is surprisingly accurate except that it requires deeper understanding to be accurate at a finer lever. Without accurate birth time even by a minute it can be off beat because it is sure to cause judgemental errors.

This system is just not adapted in western astrology even though they are the same constellations of the zodiac. However outer planets are not considered here and north node and south node have a lot of importance.

Plus the number of years allotted to a celestial body is something that comes from the scriptures written thousands of years ago, though it has a mathematical base to it. However, I have not understood how a fixed number of years are allotted to a particular celestial body at the first level. But it can be pretty accurate and works in harmony with a sidereal progressed chart.

See, Sidereal/Western has me interested:

Eastern/Sidereal: Cancer ASC

Western/Tropical: Leo ASC.

My youth and how I act is more Cancer to me then Leo. Love family, withdrawn, moddy at times.

Only at about 12 or so did I develop an ego(Leo).

The Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs are merely different systems of measurement.

Imperial and Metric systems of measurement are also different.

But .62 miles and 1 kilometer are still the exact same distance.

Frank said:

The Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs are merely different systems of measurement.

Imperial and Metric systems of measurement are also different.

But .62 miles and 1 kilometer are still the exact same distance.

Click to expand...

That's not exactly true; the tropical zodiac is based on the relationship of the Earth to the Sun, the sidereal is based on the relationship of the Earth to the stars. There is a world of difference.

You can say that the tropical is the mind and subjective experience; you can say that sidereal is based on actions and is karmic. This is one of the reasons why sidereal is better for predictions.

Curtis

CurtisSWN said:

That's not exactly true; the tropical zodiac is based on the relationship of the Earth to the Sun, the sidereal is based on the relationship of the Earth to the stars. There is a world of difference.

You can say that the tropical is the mind and subjective experience; you can say that sidereal is based on actions and is karmic. This is one of the reasons why sidereal is better for predictions.

Curtis

Click to expand...

They are both the 360 circle of the Ecliptic. Just the point where one start 0 degrees differs. So, have Siderial astrologers (both Western and Vedic) decided on just one Ayanamsa?

Awakened_Pisces said:

Simply put, your DSC is your hidden self. It becomes your Sun Sign. Or at least that was my case. Along with the Capricorn DSC in the Eastern chart. Thanks to Joseph, Eastern Astrology and others. I finally realize everything about my past and present. I think it's legitimate, infact all forms of Astrology are legitimate.

To incorporate them all however, is difficult. And that's good. For completing everything is not the same as being whole.

Click to expand...

Hey Awakened Pisces,that's an interesting therory. The DSC is relationships with other people. I agree with your therory,because I am Virgo ASC,and I feel a lot more of Pisces than Virgo. In sidereal...hmmm,I don't feel very Aquarian (I am an Aqua sun myself in tropical astrology). Anyways,I enjoy learning all types of astrology.

My ego is not very huge like a Leo's. My parents think I act like a Leo though.

See Ya,
C_A

I have a convenient way to describe the differences. Tropical has to do with subjective states such as thoughts and feelings; while sidereal has to do actions and the fruitage thereof. This is one of the reasons why sidereal works better for predictions.

One of the reasons why western astrology went with the tropical zodiac is because of the Dark Ages, the population was almost totally illiterate and those who were were of the clergy, which had a very bad opinion of astrology.

Curtis