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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #126  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:27 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Also, one planet may rise while another sets
which corresponds to an opposition between the oblique ascension of one body
and oblique descension of the other.
Or, one body may transit the upper meridian
while the other transits the lower meridian
which corresponds to an opposition in right ascension.
These two types of parans ROBERT HAND refers to as opposition parans.

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  #127  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:29 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Finally, one body may transit the meridian circle, upper or lower,
while another rises or sets.
These can be found whenever the right ascension of one body
squares the oblique ascension or oblique descension of another.
These ROBERT HAND refers to as square parans.
No other type of paran can be formed


For example, an opposition in oblique descension is not a paran
nor is one in oblique ascension.
No can one have a paran when an oblique descension is conjunct an oblique ascension.
Squares in right ascension are also not parans.
Because there are only four angles to be transited
there are no paran trines or sextiles
only squares and oppositions.


Another point:
parans may have little resemblance to traditional aspects.
Planets in a square paran may be in zodiacal trine!
Planets in an opposition paran, usually oblique ascension to oblique descension
may be in a zodiacal quincunx!
Paran conjunctions may be several degrees wide in longitude
but exact in oblique ascension, oblique descension or right ascension.
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  #128  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:35 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Although there are differences in the details
both astrological tradition and research
tells us that the planets acquire greater impact on the chart
when they are near an angle
i.e. the Ascendant, the Midheaven, the Descendant or Imum Coeli.
the peak of a planet's energy Tradition suggests
is near the angles in the angular houses.

Whatever the detailed truth may be
it is clear that planets have a fourfold rhythm of intensity.
Each planet peaks in influence four times a day as it rises, culminates, sets
and makes its lower culmination.
Now let us suppose that two planets are situated
such that they will both have transit angles simultaneously
possibly the same angle in simultaneous rising
or different angles, as with one rising while the other sets
or culminates.

It would seem logical to suppose that if this siutation arises
the two planets' peaking cycles
would be at least somewhat coordinated.
Might this not link the energies of the two planets in a manner similar to an aspect?
For example, if on a certain day Saturn rises with Mars culminating peak
causing a Mars and Saturn peak of energy to coincide
thus linking Mars and Saturn.
This is not merely a hypothesis but one of the most ancient of all astrological inclinations.
The Babylonians used these angle linkings
long before aspects on the ecliptic.
One has to remember that Babylonian astrology was an observational one
and that the horizon and meridian circles
are much more easily seen outdoors than the ecliptic.

Ptolemy discusses these linkings in Almagest at great length. Unfortunately, not too much has been stated about the influence of these linkings
but there are enough ancient records left
to indicate that they were considered to be important.
They were called in Greek "parantellonta" in plural
and "parantellonton" in singular.
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  #129  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:39 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

.....it is not clear what differences there might be among the various types of parans.
The importance of parans for this discussion is
that they take latitude and declination into consideration

The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude,
ut that together they cross the great circles
the horizon and meridian
that define the angles.

It is important to note
The planets in question do not need to be actually on the angles
in a chart to be in a paran.
They only need to be in such a relationship that
if the earth were rotated until these planets came to the angles,
they would both cross the angles together.

It has also been demonstrated
that paran relationships between natal and transiting bodie
sin other words, paran transits
can be important.

Another fact about parans is that they depend upon the latitude of location.

The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude
but that they cross the great circle of the horizon or meridian
Thus paran transits are affected by changing geographic latitude.
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  #130  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:41 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
You are welcome!

I have 2 questions ... just for sure:


When two or more planets are simultaneously on THE SAME, adjacent or opposite angles
they are said to be in paranatellonta.


1) does it mean, that it counts also for conjunction of the planet & star & angle?
(=planets are in conjunction and also in paranatellonta)



2) what about orbs? I've read an older topic, where dr.farr metioned this:

I use the following orbs (of longtitude, and of parallel in declination), based on star magnitudes:
1st mag = 3 degree orb; 2 degree orb of parallel
2nd mag & 3rd mag = 2 degree orb; 1.5 degree orb of parallel
4th & 5th mag = 1 degree orb; 1 degree orb of parallel


Can I use this settings as default? Or do you have any other suggestion about orbs?


I'm sending my tropical chart, where:
https://i.imgur.com/wmpgHgc.gif
- Jupiter Sag 819' conjuncts IC Sag 530' (249'orb)
- Jupiter Sag 819' conjuncts Antares Sag 932' (113' orb)
- Antares Sag 932' "conjuncts"(?) IC Sag 530' (358'orb)


What about this situation? I suppose that Antares and IC are "out of the allowed orb", so there is no paranatellonta between Jupiter and Antares?
(and if the orb would be tighter <3 => would it be paranatellonta?)
How To Find Parans
The mathematics of finding parans is a bit complicated
involving extensive spherical trig.
However, some of the major computer services have added them to their list of options.


The usual format is to give the sidereal time
or the right ascension of the Midheaven
at the time each of the bodies would rise, culminate, set and make the lower culmination

Thus there are four S.T.'s or RAMC's per planet.
If any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of any planet is conjunct
any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of another planet
they are in paran.
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  #131  
Unread 11-21-2019, 10:48 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Declination, Parallels, and Parans
What is a parallel?
We know what it is mathematically
but we are not too clear about why it has significance.
It has already been pointd out that declination is not the vertical dimension of longitude.

It is the vertical dimension of right ascension.
So why do parallels have significance?
The answer according to ROBERT HAND is connected with parans

Because of the geometry of planetary transits over the angles
one cannot say that if Saturn rises while Mars culminates
Saturn will necessarily culminate while Mars sets.

In other words, a paran on one pair of angles
does not mean that there will be parans on other pairs of angles at the same time.

There is an exception to this, however.
If two bodies are also in parallel of declination
when they are in paran, they will always transit the angles in pairs
and be in paran on any pair of angles.

Contraparallels also synchronize
the rising, culminating, setting, and lower culmination patterns
of pairs of planets, but not as perfectly as parallels.


ROBERT HAND believes therefore
that parallels of declination are of the same family of linkage
that parans are
and are not related to zodiacal aspects at all.
Otherwise there is no reasonable explanation for parallels
and contra-parallels.

Note that eclipses of the Sun are also parallels
and that the Sun conjunct Moon while parallel Moon will transit all angles simultaneously.
Thus an eclipse is both a zodiacal and a paran aspect.
ROBERT HAND says maybe this is part of the reason eclipses are so powerful
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  #132  
Unread 11-22-2019, 01:58 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Thus there are four S.T.'s or RAMC's per planet.
If any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of any planet is conjunct
any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC's of another planet
they are in paran.
Thanks for comprehensive set of informations JUPITERASC!

I will dig into it during next days and I will see, how it goes

This "S.T.'s or RAMC's of any planet" vs "S.T.'s or RAMC's of another planet" method seems very reasonable ... and I hope also do-able
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  #133  
Unread 11-22-2019, 02:02 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Oh, what a nice chart you have kaktuzz. Cheers!
Cheers passiflora! :P
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  #134  
Unread 11-22-2019, 02:29 PM
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Re: Traditional astrology chart - Online calculator

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaktuzz View Post
Thanks for comprehensive set of informations JUPITERASC!

I will dig into it during next days and I will see, how it goes

This "S.T.'s or RAMC's of any planet" vs "S.T.'s or RAMC's of another planet" method seems very reasonable ... and I hope also do-able
That's good news kaktuzz - have fun - many thanks
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