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  #26  
Unread 10-10-2019, 04:19 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

PlutoLibScoAsc, it also occurs to me that there are many Christian denominations, ranging from the very strict to the more liberal. You may find, if you move away from your present home, that another Christian denomination is more accepting of various beliefs.

In some of these other Christian traditions, love of God and Jesus, good works, and faith are what matter most.

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  #27  
Unread 10-10-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The only real biblical prohibitions in astrology come from Isaiah 47:13 and the book of Daniel, and even there, the tone of the Bible is more mocking astrologers' uselessness than outright forbidding astrology. If you can find some other proof-text, please let me know. More generally Leviticus 19:26 and Deuteronomy 18:9-14, 2 Kings 21:6 prohibit divination. A lot of the prohibitions of occult practices do not mention astrology, but mostly they condemn consulting mediums who communicate with the dead.

I don't think there are any specific prohibitions in the New Testament. Many Christians feel that the New Testament replaced the Old Testament.

The catechism of the Catholic church does expressly forbid astrology. This is based upon the first commandment: "You shall have no other Gods before me." I think this is a serious concern. If we are worried about the future, should we consult an astrologer or put our faith in God's plan for our lives?

Then I have seen some really odd interpretations by Evangelical ministers, who seem to think that astrologers today worship stars.

It is important to note that the biblical prohibitions against divination were written before horoscopic astrology was invented, like prior to 400 BCE. Babylonian astrology was what the Jews knew about, and the Babylonians thought that the planets were gods or omens from the gods. These planetary gods were worshipped extensively in Babylon.

Today, however, we can talk about the planets Mercury and Venus without any association with ancient gods.

Moreover, much of the astrology that is practiced today is not divination (i. e., prognostication, foretelling the future) but is basically analyzing someone's character through a natal horoscope interpretation. If I explain someone's personality traits and life issues by reading his birth chart. That is not divination.

If I predict what will happen to him in the coming year, that is divination.

Interestingly, the Catholic church during the early Middle Ages in Europe ran the major universities, and astrology/astronomy was a major part of their curriculum, including divination. I think their rationale was that God created the heavens and the order of planetary movements. The astrologer simply tries to interpret God's will for people.

Graybeard mentioned the 3 magi and the book of Revelation. Revelation has a lot of encrypted astrological lore in it. John's visions can be matched against constellations. The tree of life is probably the constellation Ophiuchus.

Eventually you will make up your own mind as to the relationship between your faith and fascination with astrology.

With all good wishes for your journey, W.
Thank you, waybeard. This is really informative and I really appreciate.
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  #28  
Unread 10-10-2019, 05:14 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Originally Posted by PlutoLibScoAsc View Post
I think people are alone, can be alone even when they believe in God. Believing in God and not feeling alone is just not true. Believing in God can't make you lonely or feel alone, that is just make believe. Or we are just different being with different characters, mind and emotions.you don't but I do. Like when you are alone in a country, having dinner alone and that is lonely, I feel lonely. Not like God is going to sit there and have dinner or have a chat with me. Or send his angel and have a chat with me on the table. It is alone and lonely. That is just reality. Believing in God but he never talks to in words as in exchange of conversation.
It all depends on perspective. Your view of reality, your view of God, can be changed.
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  #29  
Unread 10-10-2019, 10:13 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

What works for me is to think of God as this Divine Presence. Your church may teach that God is omnipresent. This is different from "the old man with the beard" (Sorry, Greybeard!) who lives up in the sky. I find it hard to relate to the anthropomorphic God. If the Creater of the universe really is God, then God cannot be limited by our human notions of the body, gender, kingship, fatherhood, and so on.

What I can relate to is a surrounding Divine Presence. It is there when I let go of my worries, and let myself apprehend it. This Divine Presence is around you and within you.

James 4:8.

Astrologically look to your 9th and 12th houses, Jupiter and Neptune. The 9th house and Jupiter relate to more formal theology. The 12th house and Neptune relate more to mysticism.

Then the 8th house relates to mysteries of life, death, and rebirth.

The signs and any planets in these houses will give you more clues.

From the Jewish blessing over the child on the Sabbath evening:

May God bless you and keep you.

May God show you favor and be gracious to you.

May God show you kindness and grant you peace.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #30  
Unread 10-10-2019, 10:22 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

For me, with Uranus in the 9th, and Neptune in the 12th, I see God, as a cosmic energy, a combination of all cosmic forces, that shower their graces upon us, based on our first taken breath. All cosmic energies. As above, so below.
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  #31  
Unread 10-10-2019, 10:28 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Maybe you should watch Carlin's routine on "religion.

Or become an atheist. Religion seems to cause you no end of internal conflict.

The world is as it is. You will not live to see it change. The question is not how to change the world, or human nature, but to somehow come to peace within yourself in the face of a cruel and unjust world.

And you must do it alone. No one can do it for you.

The earliest artifacts of mankind are weapons. They were mostly used for hunting, but also for war. The warrior is esteemed in every culture.

But where is the battle? It could be a war between Cambodia and Zimbabwe. But may I suggest that the only war that matters is the war within your own being.

The only way to win that war is by surrender. In surrender there can be no war. Peace ensues.

The Buddha said "Be your own lamp. Rely only on yourself."

The word "Islam" means "surrender to the will of God". Pisces is the sign in which the ego dies and liberation is attained. This involves recognition of our powerlessness...and surrender to the higher power.

Paul asks (Rom. 9:21-22) "who art thou that repliest against God?" "Repliest" can be taken as "argues".
Carlin for Prophet! He has the gift of perception.
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  #32  
Unread 10-10-2019, 10:32 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
What works for me is to think of God as this Divine Presence. Your church may teach that God is omnipresent. This is different from "the old man with the beard" (Sorry, Greybeard!) who lives up in the sky. I find it hard to relate to the anthropomorphic God. If the Creater of the universe really is God, then God cannot be limited by our human notions of the body, gender, kingship, fatherhood, and so on.

What I can relate to is a surrounding Divine Presence. It is there when I let go of my worries, and let myself apprehend it. This Divine Presence is around you and within you.

James 4:8.

Astrologically look to your 9th and 12th houses, Jupiter and Neptune. The 9th house and Jupiter relate to more formal theology. The 12th house and Neptune relate more to mysticism.

Then the 8th house relates to mysteries of life, death, and rebirth.

The signs and any planets in these houses will give you more clues.

From the Jewish blessing over the child on the Sabbath evening:

May God bless you and keep you.

May God show you favor and be gracious to you.

May God show you kindness and grant you peace.
Well Stated Waybread.
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  #33  
Unread 10-10-2019, 11:38 PM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Jesus said "...know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
Hi greybeard,

How do we know what John says is true?

John says Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. The other three say differently.

They all can't be right. Either John erred or the other three erred.

It says something that Yahweh doesn't even know when his "only begotten son" (haha) died.
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  #34  
Unread 10-10-2019, 11:43 PM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Another name for The Bible is "The Book of the Ages"

It is a Book that gives us the tools of survival through the ages of the zodiac, it is an astrological book.
Hi Opal,

The Old Testament has nothing to do with astrology. It's function is to justify and nothing more.

Specifically it justifies the rule of one family, consolidates power among a few and the control of land.

The New Testament teaches people how to be good slaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
From the Old Testament

Deuteronomy tells of the foods and animals we shall not eat. The foods are the same as Kosher and Halal. If you read the foods, you will see that they are animals and sea creatures that are necessary to the cleansing of the Earth after let's say a Nuclear Destruction.
Deuteronomy was written by Jeremiah and Hilkiah, not by Yahweh.

Their goal was to consolidate their power and stranglehold over people.

For thousands of years there were many temples and many altars and many places to sacrifice and Yahweh never said a word about it, and now we are to suddenly believe that there can only be one Temple, and one altar and one place to sacrifice?

Be real.

Quote:
When Moses came down of the Mount, the people were worshipping the golden bull Taurus, also the name of an area in the ancient Middle East. Then they started revering the Ram as sacred. Aries.
That is not what happened.

First, his name is X-Moses, not Moses. There is no such name as "Moses."

The word "moses" is Egyptian and rendered m-s-s in Egyptian just like it is in Hebrew.

The word "m-s-s" means emanating from or emanated from and was always without exception and without fail prefixed with the name of a god:

Ptahmoses, Rameses, Tutmoses, Tothmoses, Dedemoses, Anmoses, Ankhmoses, Amanmoses etc etc etc.

The reason no one can find any evidence of "Moses" in Egypt is because no one in Egypt was ever named "Moses" because the name is always without exception and without fail prefixed with the name of a god.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah were Yahweh fanatics and would have totally been offended by the name Amanmoses and struck it from the text leaving only "moses."

That's not the first time that's happened. It was Enki, his half-sister Ninhursag and his son Ningishiddza who created humans, but the Hebrews replaced their names with the generic plural for gods -- elohim -- in the text.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah had orgasmic fantasies when King Hezekiah destroyed the four temples King Solomon built to Chemosh, Milcomm, Dagan and the wife of Yahweh...Ashera.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah had orgasmic fantasies when Hezekiah's grandson King Josiah tore down the shrines at Dan and Beth-El.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah had orgasmic fantasies when King Josiah destroyed a holy relic.

That holy relic was a copper snake on a pole.

Yahweh commanded X-Moses to make a copper snake and mount it on a wooden pole, so that if a Hebrew was bitten by a poisonous snake, he'd only need to look at the copper snake to be healed.

And King Josiah destroyed it.

Think about that for a second.

What audacity to destroy a holy relic your god commanded your most revered hero to make.

Do you not understand the conflict between the Mosaic Priests and the Aaronid Priests?

I don't think you do.

Second, you need to study more.

When Saul dies, the Mosaic Priests, the priests descended of X-Moses, run the Temple and they did not support David, but the Aaronid Priests, the priests descended of Aaron, did.

When David gains power, he expels the Mosaic Priests from the Temple and gives control to the Aaronid Priests.

The Aaronid Priests then go to Shiloh and murder all of the Mosaic Priests, except one who escaped.

The grandson of the one who escaped is alive when Solomon dies and the 10 tribes revolt and form the Kingdom of Israel.

He thinks King Jeroboam is going to build a temple and make him the chief priest restoring him and the Mosaic Priests to their former position of glory, except that doesn't happen.

Jeroboam builds two shrines, one at Dan and the other at Beth-El on the opposite end of the kingdom and puts to cherubs in the form of a winged-bull made of olive wood and plated with gold there.

The symbolism is obvious: a throne platform for Yahweh so that he sits over the entire kingdom protecting it.

To add insult to injury, Jeroboam doesn't appoint him or any Levites as priests and instead appoints priests from the other tribes.

This is an angry bitter hateful old man who hates Aaron and everything about Aaron and the Aaronid Priesthood.

The molten image symbolizes the shrines at Dan and Beth-El. The text says "These are your gods who brought you up from Egypt" even though there is only one molten image.

He's mocking Jeroboam and his shrines at Dan and Beth-El.

But, he does something else, too.

X-Moses says, "Who stands with Yahweh" and the Levites rush to the side of X-Moses, draw their swords and then murder 3,000 people for worshipping the golden bull.

Then, X-Moses says, "You are now the priests of Yahweh."

Get it?

The sole purpose of the passage is to justify Levites, and only Levites, and no others as the sole priests.

Again, he's thumbing his nose at King Jeroboam and the appointment of non-Levites as priests.

Aaron made the molten image, but suffers no punishment.

Why?

You can denigrate Aaron but you cannot say anything that would disqualify him from the priesthood.

You see that again in Snow White Miriam, which is a story that will never be taught in Sunday school.

Aaron and his wife Miriam are complaining about the wife of X-Moses and then Aaron says, well, Yahweh talks to us, too, so X-Moses ain't all that.

Yahweh suddenly appears and says wrong answer. I talk to X-Moses, but I only appear to you in dreams.

Then Yahweh turns Miriam into a leper.

Get it?

The E writer says the wife of X-Moses was a Midianite. That would mean she's African as in a Black woman. Turning Miriam into a leper would make her almost pure white.

A fitting punishment, word-play, pun, irony, whatever you want to call it.

Why doesn't Aaron get punished?

Again, you can denigrate Aaron, but you can't do anything that would disqualify Aaron from the priesthood and being a leper disqualifies one, not to mention you can't go anywhere near a temple or altar if you're a leper.

If you don't understand the conflict between the E writer and the J writer, you'll never understand the Old Testament.

The conflict was power.

Quote:
The Bible as we know it was only written in the 1400's.

Nope. Wrong answer. The final document was written around 500 BCE.

When we find the original E text, we will know the real name of X-Moses.
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  #35  
Unread 10-10-2019, 11:44 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi greybeard,

How do we know what John says is true?

John says Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. The other three say differently.

They all can't be right. Either John erred or the other three erred.

It says something that Yahweh doesn't even know when his "only begotten son" (haha) died.
Hi AJ Astrology,

What do you think of the bible's inclusion of astrological references throughout? Opal mentioned it as 'The Book of the Ages'. Any thoughts?

Do you think the details and inconsistencies of timing discredits all teachings and philosophies encompassed within? What if you approach biblical references within personal and or literary frameworks, creating meaning and value rather than attempting to find an 'objective' 'right-way' interpretation?
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  #36  
Unread 10-11-2019, 12:43 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

AJ,

What does The Bible say about making judgements on others? You would seem to be following me around and stating ludicrous things about me personally.

I haven’t read most of your post, it reeks of disdain.

I have read a lot of The Bible, and I see a lot of astrology in both the Old and New Testaments. You don’t, and I really have no desire to convince you. If you have such disdain for what I write, as that is what you show, I would suggest that you refrain from reading my posts. I believe they have an ignore option if my writing bothers you so.

I will not change to your limited way of thinking. You should maybe work on your people skills, you come across as very rude and rather uneducated and very fixed in your opinionated writing.
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  #37  
Unread 10-11-2019, 12:45 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

The Bible as we have it today, King James Version was written in the mid 1400’s. Educate yourself.
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  #38  
Unread 10-11-2019, 12:50 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Hi Opal! I like what you've written. I think astrological references encompassed within the Bible are pretty fascinating!

Do you mainly use the King James Version when analyzing astrological references. I did notice that Genesis 1:14 edited in more modern versions actually takes away some references. Do you study Hebrew or Greek at all?
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  #39  
Unread 10-11-2019, 12:56 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Sol o mon, Son of Man reigned when the pole star was in the constellation of Cepheus.
Also Opal, just curious about this quote. I don't know much. This is all new information, but how did you come to this conclusion? Thanks!
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  #40  
Unread 10-11-2019, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Also Opal, just curious about this quote. I don't know much. This is all new information, but how did you come to this conclusion? Thanks!
Hi Moonkat,

I am just heading out the door. I have a meeting tonight. Thank you and have a great night!
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  #41  
Unread 10-11-2019, 01:11 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

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Hi Moonkat,

I am just heading out the door. I have a meeting tonight. Thank you and have a great night!
You too! Talk to ya later!
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  #42  
Unread 10-11-2019, 01:59 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Meh, who cares about the date the KJV of the Bible was written. Regardless, there seems to be interesting astrological references and symbolism. No need for people to be fighting for intellectual superiority when we could all be having an interesting dialogue on the topic... Why the need to escalate irritation?
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  #43  
Unread 10-11-2019, 06:47 AM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Bible and Astrology

It said waybread posted last, but I don't see it. Guess it was lost when the site went down.

Opal, if you have a moment though I'm still curious on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Do you mainly use the King James Version when analyzing astrological references. I did notice that Genesis 1:14 edited in more modern versions actually takes away some references. Do you study Hebrew or Greek at all?
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  #44  
Unread 10-11-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Hi Opal! I like what you've written. I think astrological references encompassed within the Bible are pretty fascinating!

Do you mainly use the King James Version when analyzing astrological references. I did notice that Genesis 1:14 edited in more modern versions actually takes away some references. Do you study Hebrew or Greek at all?
I wish and regret that I am not a linguist. I do read of all world mythologies. I am not an expert in the field of study, but I do have books on many of them. I do have a void in specific Hebrew myth. Now that I have noticed that, thank you, I will have to rectify it!

I like the quote you chose.

Genesis 1:14

“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:”

I had not noticed the word “signs” before, interesting.

I am going back to bed. I have a busy day tomorrow, I want to read the first Chapter again before I finish answering.

Regarding Solomon, it comes from more than one book that I have read on Solomon. I will look at my books when I get the chance and let you know which ones you would find most interesting.
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  #45  
Unread 10-11-2019, 06:12 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Astrology begins with reality as it is. It does not propose a "God". It takes what is, the entire cosmos, or our universe [which means "one-turning"], and then tries to see what it can learn through use of analogy.

We should understand that all religions (those which are institutionalized at the least) are designed and built as implements for social control.

What Moses did was b....LAter

Last edited by greybeard; 10-11-2019 at 06:17 PM.
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  #46  
Unread 10-11-2019, 06:29 PM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

The 'universe' means 'one-turning'? That's curious.

I was thinking on the nature of time and if it is possibly a wheel/circle. Like a circle looks like a line when you only see a segment of it, etc. (not my own idea) I was thinking of this in application to the astrological Ages, but I don't have concrete thoughts.

Even though astrology does not propose a 'god', I keep thinking of a definition that is suitable for what people say when they refer to an all-knowing, all-present entity that compasses everything.

CT linked an article a while back on random thoughts discussing Carl Jung's concept of self. It's the totality of the individual's psyche, so then I was thinking of the Bible saying we're 'made in God's image' and whether it would be more apt to say God's psyche is the totality of the universe.

Anyway, just a thought.
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  #47  
Unread 10-12-2019, 04:47 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Not curious at all if, like the ancients, one takes the time to watch the sky. That which turns as one...uni-verso.
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Unread 10-12-2019, 05:12 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

So this guy Moses was a nation-builder. But to glue his structure together he needed an authority higher than man. So that dietary strictures prohibiting the eating of a frog became mandates from On High. Judaism became the national religion, the great social lubricant and adhesive.

Organized, or institutionalized, religion is a tool for social control.

Astrology doesn't care if you believe or not. It allows you to eat frogs.

So I will choose the path of astrology, and studying and pondering the universe - that which turns as One - will try to sort out this thing we call God.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-12-2019 at 05:30 AM.
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  #49  
Unread 10-12-2019, 06:06 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

Greybeard, Jewish scholars have put a lot of thought and study into the topic of kosher dietary laws. It's not a simplistic topic. There are several different main lines of thought on it, proposed by rabbis and scholars of ancient languages.

I actually kept a kosher kitchen for about 18 years, as my ex husband is Jewish. (I converted prior to our marriage and have been religiously inactive since our separation and divorce.) What I found was that keeping kosher was a kind of mnemonic device that constantly oriented me towards my chosen faith, its sense of the sanctity of daily life, and its people.

But if you've never had a religious experience and dismissively think that all religion can be reduced to a tool of social control, you will never understand religion.

Although Judaism today is not much into astrology, there were numerous Jewish astrologers or scholars who wrote about astrology in the past. The Jewish-Roman author Josephus argued that Abraham, an Aramean, invented astrology.

Opal and Moonkat, you might be interested to learn about biblical criticism. This doesn't mean condemning the Bible, but rather "getting under the hood" to ferret out the different authors, when they lived, their social influences, and so on. This is typically based on expert knowledge of ancient languages and philology, but there are laypersons' discussions in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_criticism

Where ancient scribes contradicted one another, the compilers let both of them stand in many cases. They didn't want to exclude anything that might be scriptural.

I don't take the Bible literally, although a few facts have been verified archaeologically and through other textual sources. The Bible is full of metaphor and is also a work of literature.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #50  
Unread 10-12-2019, 06:17 AM
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Re: Bible and Astrology

(continued) There is no horoscopic astrology in the Bible, but there is a lot of encrypted star lore, or cultural astronomy.The book of Revelation is the best example, where the different images and visions refer to different constellations, most of them not zodiacal.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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