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Unread 11-14-2019, 11:19 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

This mental voyage took several years to reach its current state of completion, but I'll just describe what worked without describing the complications in getting there.
First, I studied the well-known sidereal Ages relative to the Western historical timeline. I preferred to stay within the limits of recorded history, so, I began with the middle portion of the sidereal Age of Taurus, when written language and the inventions and monument-building that accompanied it began in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, c.3500 B.C.E., with the rise of the 1st Dynasty of Ancient Egypt at about 3100 B.C.E.

Like so many others, I was using the Year 2000 as the start-date for the sidereal Age of Aquarius (this was in the early 1980s), and 2150 year Ages, giving an Age of sidereal Taurus beginning around 4300 B.C.E. No internet, so I spent a lot of library hours reading about ancient history, and making correlations. I theorized that the development of cultures should correlate to the Ages, and found quite a few good correlations. But, I also noticed that cultures which developed in one Age, didn't fall apart when that Age ended, they often remained as background to new cultures that developed in the next Age. This is the "overlapping of Ages" phenomenon, which many of those studying the Ages have also noticed.
Then, a wake-up call from a radio interview with the first Western siderealists I'd become aware of, and one of them said, (paraphrasing), "there aren't any tropical Ages, and all you tropical astrologers have no business co-opting our Age of Aquarius".

I thought about it and found myself agreeing with him. The astronomical point that tells us about the ending of the Piscean Age and the beginning of the Aquarian Age, is available as a transiting point ONLY in the sidereal zodiac, which is affixed to the constellations. It can't transit the tropical zodiac because it's already in use, locating the First Point of tropical Aries.

I decided to see if there even WAS a way to find a transiting Age-indicator for the tropical zodiac. I first reasoned that, if a tropical Sign-boundary is pointing at the Age-degree in the sidereal zodiac, maybe a sidereal Sign-boundary could do that tropically. So, I considered the 2 types of zodiacal wheels together, superimposed upon on another. Holding the sidereal wheel stationary, the tropical wheel rotates around it in retrograde fashion, and there's a convergence of spokes (Sign-boundaries) when each new sidereal Age begins. The one tropical spoke that is supposed to matter, meaning the one that points out the sidereal Age, is the first boundary of tropical Aries, known in modern astronomy as the Vernal Equinoctial Point, used as the first point in astronomy's Right Ascension measuring system.

But, as I saw it, it wasn't just a convergence of spokes of the two zodiacal wheels. It was also a convergence of measured, astrologically created, 30 degree intervals. Much is made of the convergence of the both the spokes and the Signs of the same name at the beginning of the Age of sidereal Pisces. But, all the emphasis has been placed on one spoke of the tropical wheel, regarding the Ages. So, I expanded it to what I called the "Age Interval" (now, the "Age Window") which in this case included BOTH boundaries of tropical Aries, first AND last. So, now I had a measured, astrological reason for the overlap of Ages--a foreground Age (which I refer to as "the Age of..."); and, a concurrent background Age. For example, the Sidereal Age of Aries had a Taurian background Age, etc. And, that helped account for the overlap of cultures as well.


All right, so as I now label it, tropical Aries became the "Age Window" for the sidereal zodiac. And then, the BIG question I asked myself--in a quid pro quo manner, with the tropical wheel held stationary, and the sidereal wheel rotating through it with Direct-motion, WHICH SIDEREAL-SIGN should be the Age Window that transits the tropical zodiac telling tropicalists about their own zodiac's astrological Age?

Well, I saw no analytical answer to the question because, technically, siderealism didn't appear to have a "First Sign" like Aries is for tropicalism. So, I decided to trust the intuitive abilities of so many tropical astrologers, who were convinced that an Aquarian Age was next up. Logically, if both zodiacs have an upcoming Age of Aquarius in the same time-frame, that would explain why the sidereal Age of that particular Sign would resonate so powerfully for tropicalists. So, I deliberately chose sidereal Sagittarius as the tropical Age Window, for the sole reason that it would provide a tropical Aquarian Age. And, I liked the corresponding correlative results regarding Osirian Ancient Egypt, which became a manifestation of the tropical Age of Scorpio, the Greco-Roman culture, with Zeus/Jupiter becoming king of the gods during the tropical Age of Sagittarius, and our own historical culture, so contentious, ambitious, and materialistic, which fit tropical Capricorn far better than tropical Pisces, in my own Piscean opinion.

Since this was my working model for several years, I'll stop now and take a break, before describing what came next that convinced me that my trust in the intuition of tropical astrologers was justified.


Last edited by david starling; 11-14-2019 at 12:02 PM.
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Unread 11-14-2019, 01:59 PM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Super cool. Lucid. Would be handy if there were illustrations for the 3 paragraphs starting with I thought about it and found myself agreeing with him.
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Unread 11-14-2019, 02:14 PM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Good morning!

Thank you for taking the time to write this out. I look forward to reading it a couple more times before responding to it.

Very cool David!
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Unread 11-15-2019, 10:07 AM
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Smile Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

PART 2

Since I had the Tropical Age Window affixed to the sidereal Sign Sagittarius, there was no way to know for certain exactly when the tropical Aquarian Age begins. Each sidereal astrologer chooses the exact position of the sidereal Sign-boundaries relative to the tropical Sign-boundaries, which is known by the Vedic term "ayanamsa". So, exactly when the two zodiacs converged around 2000 years ago, give or take few centuries(!), is a matter of opinion. This is why there are so many different start-dates proposed by so many different tropical astrologers for the beginning of the SIDEREAL Age of Aquarius.

I really wasn't satisfied with that uncertainty for the start of the TROPICAL Aquarian Age. Tropicalists know where their Signs are, without having to choose the exact setting. But, moving the Age Window as attached to a sidereal Sign only +/- ONE DEGREE, changed the ingress of the tropical Age-indicator, (the leading point of the Age Window), into tropical Aquarius by +/- 71.6 YEARS. So, using this model, an Aquarian Age beginning in the Year 2000 was just a guess. We tropicalists don't have to guess when a planet ingresses a tropical Sign, and my feeling was that we shouldn't have to guess when our Age-indicator ingresses tropical Aquarius. Unfortunately, I had no idea how to accomplish that.

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Unread 11-16-2019, 04:58 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Hi David,

I am going to try and discuss this. There are things as you already are aware that I agree with, and others that I disagree with. I will try to keep an open mind though.

First though, I want to say kudos, for putting yourself out there. For writing on something that is original, and taking the time to put pen to paper, so to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
This mental voyage took several years to reach its current state of completion, but I'll just describe what worked without describing the complications in getting there.
First, I studied the well-known sidereal Ages relative to the Western historical timeline. I preferred to stay within the limits of recorded history, so, I began with the middle portion of the sidereal Age of Taurus, when written language and the inventions and monument-building that accompanied it began in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, c.3500 B.C.E., with the rise of the 1st Dynasty of Ancient Egypt at about 3100 B.C.E.

Like so many others, I was using the Year 2000(I disagree with the date, I put it with the rise of the industrial revolution, but I don't want to distract on this, just mention) as the start-date for the sidereal Age of Aquarius (this was in the early 1980s), and 2150 year Ages, giving an Age of sidereal Taurus beginning around 4300 B.C.E. No internet, so I spent a lot of library hours reading about ancient history, and making correlations. I theorized that the development of cultures should correlate to the Ages, and found quite a few good correlations. But, I also noticed that cultures which developed in one Age, didn't fall apart when that Age ended, they often remained as background to new cultures that developed in the next Age. This is the "overlapping of Ages" phenomenon, which many of those studying the Ages have also noticed.I too have noticed the overlapping, my reasoning came from looking at the constellations and seeing that the constellations also overlap in the sky. Some of them have wider overlaps than others. Some are quite abrupt. It signified, in my mind, that if the overlap was small the age came in quickly leaving behind the remnants of the old age fast, and others where the overlap was lengthy, the ideals of the former age lingers while the new age develops.
Then, a wake-up call from a radio interview with the first Western siderealists I'd become aware of, and one of them said, (paraphrasing), "there aren't any tropical Ages, and all you tropical astrologers have no business co-opting our Age of Aquarius". I find it somewhat comical, that anyone could be somewhat arrogant, concerning something, that has not been pinpointed accurately. If it is solely siderealist's business, then siderealist's should have a definitive start and end date for each age.
I thought about it and found myself agreeing with him. The astronomical point that tells us about the ending of the Piscean Age and the beginning of the Aquarian Age, is available as a transiting point ONLY in the sidereal zodiac, which is affixed to the constellations. It can't transit the tropical zodiac because it's already in use, locating the First Point of tropical Aries.
I am not understanding the above.
I decided to see if there even WAS a way to find a transiting Age-indicator for the tropical zodiac. I first reasoned that, if a tropical Sign-boundary is pointing at the Age-degree in the sidereal zodiac, maybe a sidereal Sign-boundary could do that tropically. So, I considered the 2 types of zodiacal wheels together, superimposed upon on another. Holding the sidereal wheel stationary, the tropical wheel rotates around it in retrograde fashion, and there's a convergence of spokes (Sign-boundaries) when each new sidereal Age begins. The one tropical spoke that is supposed to matter, meaning the one that points out the sidereal Age, is the first boundary of tropical Aries, known in modern astronomy as the Vernal Equinoctial Point, used as the first point in astronomy's Right Ascension measuring system. 0 degrees Aries.

But, as I saw it, it wasn't just a convergence of spokes of the two zodiacal wheels. It was also a convergence of measured, astrologically created, 30 degree intervals. Much is made of the convergence of the both the spokes and the Signs of the same name at the beginning of the Age of sidereal Pisces. But, all the emphasis has been placed on one spoke of the tropical wheel, regarding the Ages. So, I expanded it to what I called the "Age Interval" (now, the "Age Window") which in this case included BOTH boundaries of tropical Aries, first AND last. So, now I had a measured, astrological reason for the overlap of Ages--a foreground Age (which I refer to as "the Age of..."); and, a concurrent background Age. For example, the Sidereal Age of Aries had a Taurian background Age, etc. And, that helped account for the overlap of cultures as well.


All right, so as I now label it, tropical Aries became the "Age Window" for the sidereal zodiac. And then, the BIG question I asked myself--in a quid pro quo manner, with the tropical wheel held stationary, and the sidereal wheel rotating through it with Direct-motion, WHICH SIDEREAL-SIGN should be the Age Window that transits the tropical zodiac telling tropicalists about their own zodiac's astrological Age?Interesting, you are asking, which tropical age would enlightenment happen for the discovery of the tropical ages, if I am understanding this correctly. Interesting question.

Well, I saw no analytical answer to the question because, technically, siderealism didn't appear to have a "First Sign" like Aries is for tropicalism. So, I decided to trust the intuitive abilities of so many tropical astrologers, who were convinced that an Aquarian Age was next up. Logically, if both zodiacs have an upcoming Age of Aquarius in the same time-frame, that would explain why the sidereal Age of that particular Sign would resonate so powerfully for tropicalists. So, I deliberately chose sidereal Sagittarius as the tropical Age Window, for the sole reason that it would provide a tropical Aquarian Age. And, I liked the corresponding correlative results regarding Osirian Ancient Egypt, which became a manifestation of the tropical Age of Scorpio, the Greco-Roman culture, with Zeus/Jupiter becoming king of the gods during the tropical Age of Sagittarius, and our own historical culture, so contentious, ambitious, and materialistic, which fit tropical Capricorn far better than tropical Pisces, in my own Piscean opinion. Okay, you are maintaining my interest.

Since this was my working model for several years, I'll stop now and take a break, before describing what came next that convinced me that my trust in the intuition of tropical astrologers was justified.
Thank you David, I will go read your other post now.
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Unread 11-16-2019, 05:04 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
PART 2

Since I had the Tropical Age Window affixed to the sidereal Sign Sagittarius, there was no way to know for certain exactly when the tropical Aquarian Age begins. Each sidereal astrologer chooses the exact position of the sidereal Sign-boundaries relative to the tropical Sign-boundaries, which is known by the Vedic term "ayanamsa". So, exactly when the two zodiacs converged around 2000 years ago, give or take few centuries(!), is a matter of opinion. This is why there are so many different start-dates proposed by so many different tropical astrologers for the beginning of the SIDEREAL Age of Aquarius.

I really wasn't satisfied with that uncertainty for the start of the TROPICAL Aquarian Age. Tropicalists know where their Signs are, without having to choose the exact setting. But, moving the Age Window as attached to a sidereal Sign only +/- ONE DEGREE, changed the ingress of the tropical Age-indicator, (the leading point of the Age Window), into tropical Aquarius by +/- 71.6 YEARS. So, using this model, an Aquarian Age beginning in the Year 2000 was just a guess. We tropicalists don't have to guess when a planet ingresses a tropical Sign, and my feeling was that we shouldn't have to guess when our Age-indicator ingresses tropical Aquarius. Unfortunately, I had no idea how to accomplish that.
You used the word HAD. Which implies to me, that you have had a eureka moment. I look forward to reading the continuing voyage. Cool.
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Unread 11-18-2019, 02:26 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Following along with interest as well, David. I don't have much in the way of commentary currently but will certainly in the future.
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Unread 11-18-2019, 08:35 AM
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Smile Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

PART 3

I had about decided that the Ages weren't meant to be known with certainty, when I made a chance discovery on a star chart I'd recently purchased. I took Astronomy 1A in college, or the label "Line of Apsides" wouldn't have meant anything to me; and, there it was, shown on the chart which included all of the zodiacal constellations, running through the middle of the constellation Sagittarius. In this context, it's the center-line of Earth's elliptical orbit.

I had already naturally assumed that the astrological Ages were Earth's own contribution to an astrology Chart, not something beaming down on us from the constellations. And, that the Age Window was the way to access our home planet's astrological influence.
As it turns out, this is NOT the way these Ages have been perceived by anyone I've read. So, here's my reasoning, from before I began searching for a tropical method for determining the Ages--(1) The transiting of the Age-indicator through the zodiac is due to a terrestrial movement, known as the Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. (2) The sidereal Age Window is set with its first boundary (the leading point in the direction of motion) on the line of intersection of the Earth's equatorial and orbital planes. (3) The measured, 30 degree, Age Window itself is the "part that represents the whole" of the Ecliptic, which is Earth's orbital plane as viewed from Earth, divided by astrologers themselves into the 12, 30 degree, measured Signs of the zodiac.

This means that the Line of Apsides qualifies as yet another terrestrial feature that can be used for locating the Earth's Age Window. It's the tropical counterpoint to the use of the line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes to locate the Age Window as it transits the sidereal Signs.
It also means that the tropical Ages are independent of the various placements of the sidereal Sign-boundaries.

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Unread 11-19-2019, 05:36 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
This mental voyage took several years to reach its current state of completion, but I'll just describe what worked without describing the complications in getting there. First, I studied the well-known sidereal Ages relative to the Western historical timeline. I preferred to stay within the limits of recorded history, so, I began with the middle portion of the sidereal Age of Taurus, when written language and the inventions and monument-building that accompanied it began in the Tigris-Euphrates valley, c.3500 B.C.E., with the rise of the 1st Dynasty of Ancient Egypt at about 3100 B.C.E.
Excellent choice of timing, David!
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
Like so many others, I was using the Year 2000 as the start-date for the sidereal Age of Aquarius (this was in the early 1980s)
The misled optimism of the inaccurately informed, but the hopeful optimistic hippie generation. (E.g. the musical Hair).
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
...and 2150 year Ages.
Much more accurate. Circa 1 AD is when the sidereal and tropical zodiacs aligned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
No internet, so I spent a lot of library hours reading about ancient history, and making correlations. I theorized that the development of cultures should correlate to the Ages, and found quite a few good correlations. But, I also noticed that cultures which developed in one Age, didn't fall apart when that Age ended, they often remained as background to new cultures that developed in the next Age. This is the "overlapping of Ages" phenomenon, which many of those studying the Ages have also noticed.
YES, even more than cusps in the tropical astrology, the influence of one age merges into the next age. I would surmise that this is a strong human tendency to conserve and revere history, much as Herodotus, the Greek historian of Egyptology, powerfully affected the culture of Arian Greece. As the geniuses of the Piscean Renaissance revived the brilliance of the Arian Greeks. On the other hand, the Age of Aquarus started making its debut even in the 19th Century, despite the very Piscean Romanticism of that era, exploded with the Industrial Revolution, the expansion of electricity, Marconi's wireless, Jules Verne's remarkable predictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
Then, a wake-up call from a radio interview with the first Western siderealists I'd become aware of, and one of them said, (paraphrasing), "there aren't any tropical Ages, and all you tropical astrologers have no business co-opting our Age of Aquarius".
I have to agree that there are simply no "tropical ages" - the placement of the Vernal Equinox of the Tropical Zodiac within the Sidereal Zodiac determines the Age. To reiterate, the Ages cannot be discretely defined - there is always considerable merging - or transition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
Then, a wake-up call from a radio interview with the first Western siderealists I'd become aware of, and one of them said, (paraphrasing), "there aren't any tropical Ages, and all you tropical astrologers have no business co-opting our Age of Aquarius".

I thought about it and found myself agreeing with him. The astronomical point that tells us about the ending of the Piscean Age and the beginning of the Aquarian Age, is available as a transiting point ONLY in the sidereal zodiac, which is affixed to the constellations. It can't transit the tropical zodiac because it's already in use, locating the First Point of tropical Aries.
I do agree with much of this, but I'm not quite sure I accept all of this, especially the expression "affixed to the constellations". What I do accept is that the sidereal zodiac is a 360 circle around the Earth, of which the 0 point aligned with the 0 point in the tropical zodiac (0 Aries) circa 1 A.D., at which time each 30 section of both the Tropical and Sidereal was "officially" named - the most indicative of this being the constellation Scorpio, which happened to appear in the 8th 30 sector in the first century AD - and is the one constellation that obviously resembles its name.

I do not accept that these apparent constellations of distant stars affect our Solar System or our astrology at all - these constellations would appear quite differently - vanish - from any other point outside our Solar System. The constellations we see from Earth are simply symbolic inherited from the beginning of the 20th Century - and they are not any influence - they simply signify for us angles from our current Vernal Equinox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
The one tropical spoke that is supposed to matter, meaning the one that points out the sidereal Age, is the first boundary of tropical Aries, known in modern astronomy as the Vernal Equinoctial Point, used as the first point in astronomy's Right Ascension measuring system.
Exactly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
But, as I saw it, it wasn't just a convergence of spokes of the two zodiacal wheels. It was also a convergence of measured, astrologically created, 30 degree intervals. Much is made of the convergence of the both the spokes and the Signs of the same name at the beginning of the Age of sidereal Pisces. But, all the emphasis has been placed on one spoke of the tropical wheel, regarding the Ages. So, I expanded it to what I called the "Age Interval" (now, the "Age Window") which in this case included BOTH boundaries of tropical Aries, first AND last. So, now I had a measured, astrological reason for the overlap of Ages--a foreground Age (which I refer to as "the Age of..."); and, a concurrent background Age. For example, the Sidereal Age of Aries had a Taurian background Age, etc. And, that helped account for the overlap of cultures as well.
David, could that not be called, for simplification, the cusping, transition or the merging of Ages?
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
All right, so as I now label it, tropical Aries became the "Age Window" for the sidereal zodiac. And then, the BIG question I asked myself--in a quid pro quo manner, with the tropical wheel held stationary, and the sidereal wheel rotating through it with Direct-motion, WHICH SIDEREAL-SIGN should be the Age Window that transits the tropical zodiac telling tropicalists about their own zodiac's astrological Age?
I think perhaps we're "overcogitating" the system at work here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling
Well, I saw no analytical answer to the question because, technically, siderealism didn't appear to have a "First Sign" like Aries is for tropicalism. So, I decided to trust the intuitive abilities of so many tropical astrologers, who were convinced that an Aquarian Age was next up. Logically, if both zodiacs have an upcoming Age of Aquarius in the same time-frame, that would explain why the sidereal Age of that particular Sign would resonate so powerfully for tropicalists. So, I deliberately chose sidereal Sagittarius as the tropical Age Window, for the sole reason that it would provide a tropical Aquarian Age. And, I liked the corresponding correlative results regarding Osirian Ancient Egypt, which became a manifestation of the tropical Age of Scorpio, the Greco-Roman culture, with Zeus/Jupiter becoming king of the gods during the tropical Age of Sagittarius, and our own historical culture, so contentious, ambitious, and materialistic, which fit tropical Capricorn far better than tropical Pisces, in my own Piscean opinion.
Okay, from a fellow Piscean who has been through such conundrums - overcogitation - obsessive brain fever. I've done the same, and it doesn't end up in anything good. Remember that Neptune is stationary right now, and that is the ULTIMATE in brain fever. Let go for now.

I'll leave you with my conclusions after decades of contemplating this mind-boggling topic:
  • Tropical and modern sidereal astrology should be two dimensions of the same thing.
  • There is no such thing as a "tropical age". The tropical vernal equinox determines the sidereal age.
  • Sidereal astrology is based on the established 25,800 year precession cycle determined by science (which is astroNomically variable as per NASA).
  • Modern sidereal astrology should be based on 12 approximately equal 2150-year periods - i.e., 25,600 precession / 12 signs. Each of these 2150-year periods can involve extensive overlaps due to human conservation of tradition and remarkable anticipation of the future.
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Unread 11-19-2019, 06:28 AM
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Smile Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Ancar, I came up with this Age Window idea, and extending it to the tropical zodiac, with Direct-motion Ages, when Neptune was in the visionary Sign, Sagittarius. I'm just writing the article on it now.
The time-line stays the same for the sidereal Ages, but changes for the tropical Ages (as I'll explain in the next part of the article), because for those, I'm using the Anomalistic year, in ADDITION to the Tropical and Sidereal years. I emailed The Mountain Astrologer magazine a couple of years ago, about tropical Ages in particular. They seemed open-minded about it, and said they'd require a mailed, written outline before they decided whether it had merit.

Btw, I just got Ray Grasse's book, Signs of the Times, but haven't read it yet, just watched the YouTube video. I hadn't heard of him before you recommended it. Turns out, he's involved with the magazine. It would be cool if I could get his opinion on both the Age Windows, which converge with a Sign at the beginning of the next Sign's Age, and the use of the Anomalistic year for tropical Ages.

The first point of the Age Window is about the Age-effect on individuals, the center-point on societies, and the third (and last point) on traditions. This also ties into the modern concept of the First, Second, and Third Worlds, in which the First World champions Individualism, the Second World, Socialism, and the Third World, Traditionalism. All three of these Age-effects are occurring simultaneously, and the third point is always one Sign behind the first point, with the center point agreeing in Sign with the third point, until the first point is at the halfway mark through the foreground Age-sign.

I'm not introducing anything new--I'm just organizing and explaining what I've believed for decades.

Last edited by david starling; 11-19-2019 at 07:24 AM.
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

David,

Now that I'm rereading the thread again today, I feel quite remiss I about a few things I wrote, and would like to amend them.

First, I think the work you've done and are presenting here is brilliant and amazingly advanced and informed. I have every hope that Mountain Astrologer will accept your astounding work. (And yes, Ray Grasse is one of the editors of and contributors to the Mountain Astrologer.)

Second, re-reading my line about "brain fever", I see that is a foolish self-projection on my part. That was wrong, and I apologize to you for adding that!! I wish so much I could take that back. (I could edit it out, but that's not honest and would render your reply confusing - won't do that.) But still so sorry and embarrassed I wrote it. Stationary transit Neptune is sitting exactly on my Mars right now, and transit Uranus is square my Mercury and Ascendent. I am the one with brain fever! NOT YOU! Your thinking is coolly logical.

And I'm afraid that you're advancing beyond my capacity to respond intelligently and constructively - I'm going to sit back, study and learn from YOUR work now. I would never critique of the likes of Einstein, Niels Bohr, Wolfgang Pauli, Robert Hand, or Ray Grasse - nor you - at this point, I am the student, you are the teacher. I've said my piece - expressed my understanding and approach to the Great Ages. You "take the baton" and run with it now. I'm excited to see your amazing development of this complex theory.

Sincerely,
Ancar
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Unread 11-19-2019, 07:52 PM
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Ancar, I've had "brain fever" myself! I have so much Air in my Chart, versus Pisces, which says, "enough already"! The one part of this that really took over my mind in an obsessive way, was doing the astronomical calculations. I remember staying up late, studying the astronomy and doing the math. You flatter me! I just used Aquarian logic along with Piscean intuition, and Virgoan analysis. And, a BIG assist from that Neptune transit in Sagittarius. One thing flowed into another, in a natural way. I hope you'll keep on critiquing it from your own vantage point, because each Chart can only see part of the whole picture, and you're one of the few who can grasp the full importance of the astrological Ages.

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Unread 11-20-2019, 03:09 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

I will be ordering Grasse's book too. Thanks Ancar, sounds interesting.
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Unread 11-23-2019, 08:58 AM
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PART 4

I went back to my Astronomy 1A texrbook, and to the library(!) for other books concerning the Line of Apsides. Like the line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes, which is used to determine the sidereal Ages, here are two points that can be used for the tropical: One is the point where Earth is closest to the Sun, Earth's Perihelion; and, its opposite, the Aphelion, where it's farthest. I decided to go with only one Age Window, centered on the Point of Perihelion, and concentrating on its approach to tropical Aquarius, just as most are using one end of the line of intersection, the Northern hemispheric Vernal Point, and concentrating on its approach to sidereal Aquarius.

So, extremely similar methods for both zodiacs, with the same result being an Aquarian Age. Both Age Windows are located using astronomical measurements. In both cases the locating points are terrestrial in nature, sidereally a function of Earth's axial tilt (Obliquity), and tropically, Earth's elliptical orbit. In both cases, the reason for the transits of the Age Windows through the respective zodiacs is Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. And, in both cases, the Age Window, which can be described as the "part that represents the whole of the Earth's Ecliptic" which we divide astrologically into twelve, equal, 30 degree lengths of arc, moves in and out of convergence with the 12 Signs over the course of the Ages; with convergence signaling the beginning of a new foreground Age, following the leading boundary in the direction of motion.

Now, for the differences:

The sidereal Age Window is boundary-located on the boundary-line between Winter and Spring in the Northern hemisphere. Whereas the tropical Age Window is centered on the center-line of Earth's elliptical orbit, at the point of Earth's Perihelion.
The Vernal Point (VP) moves has Retrograde-motion through the sidereal zodiac, at the rate of one degree every 71.6 years. Whereas, the Point of Perihelion has Direct-motion through the tropical zodiac at the rate of one degree every 58.1 years. This means a sidereal convergence of the Age Window with a Sign occurs once every 2148 years, at the current rate of Precession of the Equinox, (which varies slightly over the course of the Millennia). And, tropically, a convergence every 1743 years, at the current rate of the Progression of the Perihelion.

Sidereally, the variation in when a convergence is believed to occur is due to the variation in Sign-boundary locations, which are a matter of opinion. I'm not a siderealist, so I won't choose a particular ayanamsa (the degree of difference between a sidereal Sign-boundary and the tropical one of the same name). Many Modernistic, Western siderealists are using the star Aldebaran, the "Eye of the Bull" in the constellation Taurus, to center the sidereal Sign known as Taurus, which yields a convergence with sidereal Pisces, and therefore the beginning of the sidereal Aquarian Age, in 2369. Others, mainly tropicalists who are using the sidereal zodiac for the Ages only, have the convergence of the sidereal Age Window with sidereal Aries, signaling the beginning of the foreground Age of sidereal Pisces, occurring in the Year One of the A.D. dating system.
This means a difference between these two zodiacal settings as to when the Age of Pisces began, of over two centuries, with the same discrepancy as to when the sidereal Age of Aquarius will begin. There are also several setting which begin the sidereal Age of Pisces in the 100-200 B.C. range, and have a corresponding Aquarian Age start that has already begun. In fact, most tropicalists consider this to already BE the beginning of the sidereal Age of Aquarius, while most siderealists have it starting about three centuries from now.

Tropically, it's a different story, since both the Signs and the Age Window are located using astronomy and there's no ambiguity as to Sign placements. There is, however, a complicating factor: There's a +/- two degree, irregular fluctuation, between the "Mean" location of the Age Window, which is the aforementioned median movement of constant Direct-motion at one degree per 58.1 years; versus the "True" location, from one year to the next. The Mean, constant Direct-motion has a convergence of the tropical Age Window with tropical Capricorn in 2149, making that the Mean start-date for the tropical Age of Aquarius. Which is an interesting coincidence, since with the Year One beginning for the sidereal Age of Pisces, that's also the start-date for the sidereal Age of Aquarius. Incidentally, the Retrograde-motion of the sidereal Age Window doesn't fluctuate, so the Mean and True value are one and the same.
However, the Moon's orbit around the Earth causes the +/- two degree fluctuation in tropical measurement; and, for example, in 2020, the leading point of the Age Window will be at 29 degrees, 26 minutes tropical Capricorn for the True setting, then swing back to 27 degrees the following year--back and forth, over and over, with no regular pattern I've yet discovered.
I haven't confirmed it yet, but the first True start-date for the tropical Aquarian Age, the year of the Convergence of the Age Window with tropical Capricorn, looks to be in 2047, for that one year. Then, it "un-starts" the following year, and starts again some number of years later. So, even in the case of the tropical zodiac, the beginning of the Aquarian Age plays hard to get.
I'll be doing some more research on the True settings, and list them soon.

Last edited by david starling; 11-30-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Unread 11-23-2019, 01:41 PM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

I will return David, going to read it a few times.

I do enjoy, your writing style and your sense of humour! You are readable, I am not sure if I am a believer yet, but I am enjoying the voyage!
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Unread 11-23-2019, 06:56 PM
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I will return David, going to read it a few times.

I do enjoy, your writing style and your sense of humour! You are readable, I am not sure if I am a believer yet, but I am enjoying the voyage!
Thanks Opal! One of my goals is to help explain the controversy over when the sidereal Age of Aquarius begins. I would suggest to tropicalists that they accept the sidereal zodiac as a companion to the tropical, rather than a competitor--two legitimate angles of view, rather than, if one's right, the other must be wrong. And, same advice for sidereal astrologers.
With that in mind, one should draw both types of Natal-charts for oneself, to know how one's Chart relates to the Ages. Of course, without a tropical version of a transiting Age-indicator, like the one I've been presenting, only a sidereal Chart can be used for that purpose.
So, if you believe the Aquarian Age is already underway, use the setting of the sidereal Signs that makes that possible, even though it differs from the settings used by most siderealists, who have differing Sign-placements as well.
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Unread 11-24-2019, 04:08 AM
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For those not clear on why I'm saying the sidereal Ages can't be tracked in the tropical Chart--it's because the astronomical point being used to show that a sidereal Aquarian Age is coming up next, is already being used tropically to locate the first point of tropical Aries. And, of course, tropical Aries can't transit its own zodiac.
I'm also saying that I see no reason why the Age phenomenon can't be addressed tropically, as well as sidereally.
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Unread 11-27-2019, 01:46 PM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

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PART 4

I went back to my Astronomy 1A texrbook, and to the library(!) for other books concerning the Line of Apsides. Like the line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes, which is used to determine the sidereal Ages, here are two points that can be used for the tropical: One is the point where Earth is closest to the Sun, Earth's Perihelion; and, its opposite, the Aphelion, where it's farthest. I decided to go with only one Age Window, centered on the Point of Perihelion, and concentrating on its approach to tropical Aquarius, just as most are using one end of the line of intersection, the Northern hemispheric Vernal Point, and concentrating on its approach to sidereal Aquarius.

So, extremely similar methods for both zodiacs, with the same result being an Aquarian Age. Both Age Windows are located using astronomical measurements. In both cases the locating points are terrestrial in nature, sidereally a function of Earth's axial tilt (Obliquity), and tropically, Earth's elliptical orbit. In both cases, the reason for the transits of the Age Windows through the respective zodiacs is Earth's "wobble" as it rotates. And, in both cases, the Age Window, which can be described as the "part that represents the whole of the Earth's Ecliptic" which we divide astrologically into twelve, equal, 30 degree lengths of arc, moves in and out of convergence with the 12 Signs over the course of the Ages; with convergence signaling the beginning of a new foreground Age, following the leading boundary in the direction of motion.

Now, for the differences:

The sidereal Age Window is boundary-located on the boundary-line between Winter and Spring in the Northern hemisphere. Whereas the tropical Age Window is centered on the center-line of Earth's elliptical orbit, at the point of Earth's Perihelion.
The Vernal Point (VP) moves has Retrograde-motion through the sidereal zodiac, at the rate of one degree every 71.6 years. Whereas, the Point of Perihelion has Direct-motion through the tropical zodiac at the rate of one degree every 58.1 years. This means a sidereal convergence of the Age Window with a Sign occurs once every 2148 years, at the current rate of Precession of the Equinox, (which varies slightly over the course of the Millennia). And, tropically, a convergence every 1743 years, at the current rate of the Progression of the Perihelion.

Sidereally, the variation in when a convergence is believed to occur is due to the variation in Sign-boundary locations, which are a matter of opinion. I'm not a siderealist, so I won't choose a particular ayanamsa (the degree of difference between a sidereal Sign-boundary and the tropical one of the same name). Many Modernistic, Western siderealists are using the star Aldebaran, the "Eye of the Bull" in the constellation Taurus, to center the sidereal Sign known as Taurus, which yields a convergence with sidereal Pisces, and therefore the beginning of the sidereal Aquarian Age, in 2369. Others, mainly tropicalists who are using the sidereal zodiac for the Ages only, have the convergence of the sidereal Age Window with sidereal Aries, signaling the beginning of the foreground Age of sidereal Pisces, occurring in the Year One of the A.D. dating system.
This means a difference between these two zodiacal settings as to when the Age of Pisces began, of over two centuries, with the same discrepancy as to when the sidereal Age of Aquarius will begin. There are also several setting which begin the sidereal Age of Pisces in the 100-200 B.C. range, and have a corresponding Aquarian Age start that has already begun. In fact, most tropicalists consider this to already BE the beginning of the sidereal Age of Aquarius, while most siderealists have it starting about three centuries from now.

Tropically, it's a different story, since both the Signs and the Age Window are located using astronomy and there's no ambiguity as to Sign placements. There is, however, a complicating factor: There's a +/- two degree, irregular fluctuation, between the "Mean" location of the Age Window, which is the aforementioned median movement of constant Direct-motion at one degree per 58.1 years; versus the "True" location, from one year to the next. The Mean, constant Direct-motion has a convergence of the tropical Age Window with tropical Capricorn in 2149, making that the Mean start-date for the tropical Age of Aquarius. Which is an interesting coincidence, since with the Year One beginning for the sidereal Age of Pisces, that's also the start-date for the sidereal Age of Aquarius. Incidentally, the Retrograde-motion of the sidereal Age Window doesn't fluctuate, so the Mean and True value are one and the same.
However, the Moon's orbit around the Earth causes the +/- two degree fluctuation in tropical measurement; and, for example, in 2020, the leading point of the Age Window will be at 29 degrees, 26 minutes tropical Capricorn for the True setting, then swing back to 27 degrees the following year--back and forth, over and over, with no regular pattern I've yet discovered.
I haven't confirmed it yet, but the first True start-date for the tropical Aquarian Age, the year of the Convergence of the Age Window with tropical Capricorn, looks to be in 2033, for that one year. Then, it "un-starts" the following year, and starts again some number of years later. So, even in the case of the tropical zodiac, the beginning of the Aquarian Age plays hard to get.
I'll be doing some more research on the True settings, and list them soon.
So, you have it going in then retrograding tropically?
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Unread 11-27-2019, 07:35 PM
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So, you have it going in then retrograding tropically?
It jumps back and forth. Looks like 2047 is the first True ingress into Aquarius, then back into Cap. Like dipping a candle, the tropical Aquarian Age will take form gradually. But, once the candle is lit, it will fulfill its promise of a much better world, under Uranian rulership. A transformation of the Reality-paradigm this massive and all pervasive has to occur gradually.
I don't have it going in and out of Aquarius, the astronomy does!
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Unread 11-27-2019, 10:52 PM
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PART 5

All of the tropical Ages come into full effect once the Mean ingress into the new Age occurs. For the Aquarian Age, that's 2149. Even then, there will be nutation back into Capricorn, but Uranian authority will remain dominant from that point on.

The Modality comes into play as to when the major, intrinsic results are manifested. For Cardinal-sign Ages, which are innovative by nature, there's tremendous resistance from the background Age, which holds the results back. This is because a Cardinal-sign is of a new seasonal quadrant, and the momentum of the entirety of the old quadrant is very powerful. What we have now, is the true nature of the Age of Capricorn, in its culminating phase.

But, a Fixed-sign Age has a background Age of the same quadrant; and, coupled with Fixed-sign intensity, it's therefore able to manifest its major results as soon as it takes full effect. Again, in this case, 2149 and onward.

The Mutable-sign Ages culminate in the middle Decant, with absorption from previous, Fixed-sign Age developments in the first Decant, and preparation for the transition into the next, Cardinal-sign Age in the last. The most representative culture of the Age of tropical Sagittarius was that of ancient Greece, which arose in the middle Decant, from about 800 to about 200 B.C.E.

The cause of the Age manifestations is the aggregate Age-influence on everyone's Natal-chart at the same time, and each succeeding tropical "Age-degree" is a generational progression. Following the Mean, Direct-motion of the tropical Age-indicator, the 27th tropical Age-degree was reached in 1975, and the 28th will begin in 2033.

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Unread 11-28-2019, 02:42 AM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

Interesting, I have been thinking of the numbers. As Sidereal Aquarius enters at 30 degrees, the Tropical Aquarius would enter at 0.01 degrees or 0.00 but that is hardly a number, but is it.

So, we would have 2 decanates in motion. For the center decanate, they would be one, sharing the same, but for the others 1st and 3rd, they would have a different flavour.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 05:40 AM
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The constant, continuous Retrograde-motion of the sidereal Ages makes them indrawn and contemplative compared to the continual, ultimately Direct-motion tropical Ages. This especially applies to the sidereal Age of Pisces.

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Unread 11-28-2019, 01:27 PM
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Kiril, what zodiac are you using for Natal-charts? The Ages are the aggregate effect of Age-influence in everyone's Chart. The constellations themselves are Signs, not influences. If you're using an equal-Sign, sidereal zodiac, just pick your ayanamsa and locate the V.P., or whatever point you're using as an Age-indicating influence, and that will tell you what Sign and degree the Age-indicator is in. If you're using unequal Signs, to match the lengths of the constellations for the Ages, that means the length of time the Sun is in a Sign varies accordingly.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 01:42 PM
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Re: A Voyage of Discovery: Astrological Ages for the Tropical Zodiac

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Kiril, what zodiac are you using for Natal-charts?
The Ages are the aggregate effect of Age-influence in everyone's Chart.

The constellations themselves are Signs, not influences.
the constellations are the constellations
signs are signs

perhaps you are highlighting
Tropical signs are named after constellations

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If you're using an equal-Sign, sidereal zodiac, just pick your ayanamsa and locate the V.P., or whatever point you're using as an Age-indicating influence, and that will tell you what Sign and degree the Age-indicator is in. If you're using unequal Signs, to match the lengths of the constellations for the Ages, that means the length of time the Sun is in a Sign varies accordingly.
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Unread 11-28-2019, 01:58 PM
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No, the constellations as pictured by the ancient Babylonians and modified by the Hellenists tell siderealists what named SIGN an indicator is in. The Ascendant point, Sun, Moon, planets, Nodes, and the Age-indicator are the indicating influences, with qualities imparted to them by the Signs. The constellations don't transit a sidereal zodiac. They're activated by the transiting influences.

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