"Measured Points" versus Planets

The comet named "Chiron" is all about the Wounded Healer concept, which has become extremely popular Astrologically speaking. Since the concept itself was the invention of Karl Jung, that's what they should have named the comet! Where's Jung in your Chart?

https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Zodiac/Sagittarius/sagittarius.html

I hesitate to include Chiron in a Chart reading. It's currently right on my Sun in Pisces, so I'll see if I can detect an effect.

david starling said:

if it bothers you to picture the Sign Virgo as a Greek goddess, note that two Signs already have deities as symbols: Capricorn was the Babylonian god Ea, pictured in the constellation as the Goat-fish; and the Greek constellation, Sagittarius, is the immortal Greek Centaur-archer, Chiron (now more famous as a huge comet). Apollo was Chiron's mentor, so that's another connection between Apollo's Ascendant and the Sign pictured as a Centaur. It appears that astrologers in general still haven't realized that astronomers have taken it upon themselves to tag a random comet with the same identity as the ancient constellational image of Sagittarius!
Astronomers have also randomly named minor asteroids for Apollo, and for Urania, Muse of both Astrology and Astronomy! Unbelievable!

Click to expand...

It's perfectly natural to me that planets and signs be associated with gods and goddesses, since astrology is all about symbolism and archetypes, and so were the gods. I'll have to think about Artemis as the moon. Some commonalities come to mind immediately--the connection to wildness and nature and being hidden, dancing naked with the nymphs under the stars.

I can see a connection between Virgo and Athena. Athena was born from her father's head instead of from a mother, which strikes me as pretty Mercurial, and she was famously virginal. I'm pretty sure that I've heard Virgo associated with Persephone before too.

There's a lot of overlap with the asteroid's names. For example, there is both a Persephone and Proserpina, when they're pretty much the same entity. Another example is an asteroid named Hades, which is pretty much the same as Pluto in mythology.

It is an interesting point you bring up about Sag and Chiron. Obviously, one is a sign and one a body, so one is how and one is what, but Sagittarius traits seem to focus on Chiron's heroism and wisdom, while Chiron, the asteroid, is all about his predicament of being mortally wounded but unable to die.

Witchyone said:

It's perfectly natural to me that planets and signs be associated with gods and goddesses, since astrology is all about symbolism and archetypes, and so were the gods. I'll have to think about Artemis as the moon. Some commonalities come to mind immediately--the connection to wildness and nature and being hidden, dancing naked with the nymphs under the stars.

I can see a connection between Virgo and Athena. Athena was born from her father's head instead of from a mother, which strikes me as pretty Mercurial, and she was famously virginal. I'm pretty sure that I've heard Virgo associated with Persephone before too.

There's a lot of overlap with the asteroid's names. For example, there is both a Persephone and Proserpina, when they're pretty much the same entity. Another example is an asteroid named Hades, which is pretty much the same as Pluto in mythology.

It is an interesting point you bring up about Sag and Chiron. Obviously, one is a sign and one a body, so one is how and one is what, but Sagittarius traits seem to focus on Chiron's heroism and wisdom, while Chiron, the asteroid, is all about his predicament of being mortally wounded but unable to die.

Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking about Sagittarius and Chiron! Jung meant "wounded healer" on the psychological level, but it was inspired by the Chiron mythology. For Sagittarius, it's about heroism and shrugging off injuries.

There's a controversial interplay between viewing from an entirely geocentric perspective, and informing the geocentric with a heliocentric perspective. The major example is the Ecliptic, our plane of Astrological measurements. Is it Earth's orbital plane, or is it the Sun's? Or, both?

The Heliocentric model can be used to shed light on our Geocentric configuration. In order to recognize a correct 12/12 rulership pattern, we need something to guide us. Ancient lore isn't enough, because the outermost Planets were absent from consideration. I'm using the Heliocentric model in two ways: To determine the 2 Equinoctial rulers and the 2 Solsticial rulers. And, to set the Elemental pattern in place.

With the Cardinal-signs taken as "positional", and the "reference orbit" as the Earth's, Heliocentrically, Venus and Mars are positionally "equivalent" relative to Earth's orbit, because their orbits are adjacent to it. And, they're opposites as we!l, because they're on opposite sides. This equivalency matches up to the word "Equinoctial", which implies sameness.

The Solsticial rulers should be as near and far away from the reference orbit as possible, given some limiting factor. I'm using the ability to recognize a celestial object as a planet (rather than a star) using natural vision. The Moon is closest to Earth's orbit, and Saturn is farthest away, given that limitation.

The Sun is stationary in the center of the Heliocentric model, and obviously fiery, so it should rule Fixed-Fire Leo, when using this model as a cypher. That sets the Elemental pattern, which can be used as a guide in accordance with the Fire/Earth/Air/Water sequence and physical characteristics of the Moon and Venus, to specify the Cardinal-sign ruler for each of those 4 Signs.

With the Sun designated as Fixed-Fire ruler, and the regular order of Fire/Earth/Air/Water, the best matchup for rulership of Solsticial-sign is the Moon, which affects our emotions, and should therefore rule a Water-sign. That leaves the other Solsticial ruler, Saturn, to rule Capricorn.
For the 2 Equinoctial rulers, Venus and Mars (as explained in the previous post), the brightness of Venus is due to its atmosphere, suggesting that it rules an Air-sign, and the color of Mars suggests it rules a Fire-sign.
So now, the 4 Cardinal-sign rulers are accounted for, as well as the Sun's rulership of Leo.

With the Cardinal-sign rulers in place and locating the tropical Sign-boundaries, there are 8 Fixed and Mutables to account for, using some sort of pattern. Since one Fixed-sign ruler is already a product of the Heliocentric cypher, it can be used to check the validity of the chosen pattern.
I chose rate of motion, in accordance with Modality: Fixed inclined to remain in place, Mutable inclined to change position; and, Elements, with Fixed, solid-Earth Taurus requiring by far the slowest ruler, and Mutable-Fire Sagittarius requiring by far the fastest. Virgo, although an Earth-sign like Taurus, is not a Sign of solidity--rather, the equivalent of a materialistic, "heavy-vapor" Sign for purposes of this pattern.
Slower to faster using States of Matter as a metaphor:
Solid (only Taurus)
Liquid (Scorpio + Pisces)
Vapor (Aquarius, Virgo & Gemini)
Plasma (Leo + Sagittarius)
These are first separated according to Modality, and placed in order and the Fixed-Sign coefficient of movement starts with Taurus at a coefficient of #1, Scorpio #2, Aquarius #3, and Leo #4.
The Mutable-sign coefficient starts at Pisces #1, then Virgo, #1.5, and Gemini #3. Virgo, as equivalent to heavy vapor, is higher coefficient than liquid but lower than regular vapor, Gemini.
Letting the Fixed-signs remain at their original coefficients, and initially increasing the coefficient of each Mutable just enough to move it past its Fixed counterpart: Fixed-solid Taurus remains at coefficient #1, with no Mutable counterpart; Fixed-liquid Scorpio remains at #2, so its liquid counterpart, Pisces, using the minimum increase of half a unit, changes to #2.5; Virgo moves a full unit, to 3.5, to move past Aquarius, which stays at #3; and regular-vapor Gemini moves past heavy-vapor Virgo, and ends with a coefficient of #4. Now there's an additional pattern as to how Mutability affected the coefficient, from +.5 to +1 to + 1.5, so the coefficient of Sagittarius increases by a factor of 2, leaving it at #6, by far the highest.

All that's left in assigning rulership according to pattern is matching the rate of motion of the rulers to the coefficients of the signs. The IMPORTANCE of the two additional rulers needed was the prime consideration, not whether they're Planets or "measured points". The quotation marks are because the Planets themselves, and the Moon, are also "measured points" in the context of the zodiac--we're using measured, intersecting points of lines of Celestial Longitude, running through these celestial objects and crossing the Earth/Sun orbital plane--not the celestial objects themselves.
The 2 most important additional rulers are, [IMO], the Ascendant, which is clearly linked to Apollo, god of Sun-rise; and the Age-indicator, linked to Gaia, the Ancient Greek goddess personifying the Earth, which "wobbles" while it rotates, thereby causing the Ages themselves.

So, here are the matchups, faster to slower, using the coefficients:
Apollo's Ascendant/Sagittarius with a coefficient at #6
Mercury/Gemini, coefficient #4.5
Sun/Leo (as was determined using the Heliocentric cypher), coefficient #4
Jupiter/Virgo, coefficient #3.5
Ouranos, male version, and Urania, female version of /Aquarius, coefficient #3
Neptune/Pisces, coefficient #2.5
Pluto/Scorpio, coefficient #2
Gaia's Age-indicator/Taurus, coefficient #1
Notice the larger difference in coefficient from Taurus to Scorpio relative to the .5 separations for the Signs ruled by Planets. This reflects the extreme slowness of Gaia's Age-indicator relative to Pluto; and, the even larger difference in coefficient from Mercury to Sagittarius, just as the Ascendant is MUCH faster than the Planet.

The only surprise for me was Jupiter's rulership of Virgo, which I hadn't previously considered, but on further reflection, now makes sense.
But, Jupiter HAS to have rulership of Sagittarius as well [IMO], and from this conundrum came the 5 TYPES of rulership, available as a result of the 12/12 pattern that these assignments (of what I've dubbed as "Native-rulership"), revealed. Jupiter, according to this pattern, is the "Regulating-ruler" of Sagittarius, just as Mercury is Regulating-ruler of Virgo.

Here are the results. The terminology needs some work, but it's close enough for now.

(#1) Aries:
Domicled ruler••• Mars
Regulator••• Saturn
Motivator••• Sun
Benefactor(s)••• Pluto + NN
Exalted in Aries•••Jupiter

(#2) Taurus:
Domicled ruler(s)•••(Gaia's) Age-indicator + SN
Regulator•••••
Motivator••• Jupiter
Benefactor(s)••• (Apollo's) Ascendant + Chiron
Exalted in Taurus••• Venus

(#3) Gemini:
Domicled ruler••• Mercury
Regulator••• Neptune
Motivator••• Venus
Benefactor••• Saturn
Exalted in Gemini••• Pluto + NN

(#4)
Domicled ruler••• Moon
Regulator••• Mars
Motivator(s)••• Pluto + NN
Benefactor•••••
Exalted in ••• (Apollo's) Ascendant + Chiron

(#5) Leo
Domicled ruler••• Sun
Regulator(s)••• (Gaia's) Age-indicator + SN
Motivator(s)••• (Apollo's) Ascendant + Chiron
Benefactor••• Neptune
Exalted in Leo••• Saturn

(#6) Virgo
Domicled ruler••• Jupiter
Regulator••• Mercury
Motivator••• Saturn
Benefactor••• Mars
Exalted in Virgo•••••

(#7) Libra
Domicled ruler••• Venus
Regulator••• Moon
Motivator•••••
Benefactor(s)••• (Gaia's) Age-indicator +SN
Exalted in Libra••• Neptune

(#8) Scorpio
Domicled ruler(s)••• Pluto + NN
Regulator••• Sun
Motivator••• Neptune
Benefactor••• Mercury
Exalted in Scorpio••• Mars

(#9) Sagittarius
Domicled ruler(s)••• (Apollo's) Ascendant + Chiron
Regulator••• Jupiter
Motivator••• Mars
Benefactor••• Moon
Exalted in Sagittarius••• (Gaia's) Age-indicator + SN

(#10) Capricorn
Domicled ruler••• Saturn
Regulator••• Venus
Motivator(s)••• (Gaia's) Age-indicator + SN
Benefactor••• Sun
Exalted in Capricorn••• Mercury

(#11) Aquarius
Domicled ruler•••••
Regulator••• Pluto + NN
Motivator••• Mercury
Benefactor••• Jupiter
Exalted in Aquarius••• Moon

(#12) Pisces
Domicled ruler••• Neptune
Regulator(s)••• (Apollo's) Ascendant + Chiron
Motivator••• Moon
Benefactor••• Venus
Exalted in Pisces••• Sun

There's a consistent method used to delineate the above rulership combinations, which I'm calling the "12/12 Pattern".

david starling said:

I'm using the Ascendant as a sign-ruler.

Click to expand...

Hello David
I've been long time want to jump into this discussion.
As far as I understand, the "sign" is mean to be understanding "where" the locations of celestial objects in universe. And when I look at the natal chart, ascendant line isn't change whenever I put in two differently locations but the midheaven (and IC, of course) line is move. So the midheaven is where we are at the time of birth and with exact time from GMT, we could find the location. From this, what I understand is ascendant is earth movement on it's own position and in reverse with descendant. Of course all of this lines is important but without Gama energy how can we ruling our individual energy?

The Houses move with the Ascendant, but the Signs stay in place. The Ascendant does change position with longitudinal location on Earth, because it's the intersection of the (eastern) horizon in any given location, with the Sun's path through the zodiac. Not sure what you mean by Gama energy. Can you explain that?

david starling said:

The Houses move with the Ascendant, but the Signs stay in place. The Ascendant does change position with longitudinal location on Earth, because it's the intersection of the (eastern) horizon in any given location, with the Sun's path through the zodiac. Not sure what you mean by Gama energy. Can you explain that?

Click to expand...

Come on David forget it, we are all amateur so don't take it serious. I mean gamma rays.

What I mean is the source of energy is still from the sun and the sun is the only object in our solar system that produce massive gamma rays and what are the relations to the ascendant? Now what makes (theories) you said ascendant as a sign ruler?

SunConjunctUranus said:

Come on David forget it, we are all amateur so don't take it serious. I mean gamma rays.
What I mean is the source of energy is still from the sun
and the sun is the only object in our solar system that produce massive
gamma rays and what are the relations to the ascendant?
Now what makes (theories) you said ascendant as a sign ruler?

Click to expand...

Planets are celestial bodies
TROPICAL Astrological SIGNS
are distinct from the CONSTELLATIONS
with which
over centuries
they were conflated

Originally, SIGN meant simply "a Sign of the SEASON"
because
SIGNS were basically a Calender of the Seasons
which followed the Seasonal Path of the Sun on the Ecliptic

The Ascendant has a rising sign
The rising sign on the Ascendant has a planet as sign ruler

The Ascendant itself is not a Sign ruler

JUPITERASC said:

Planets are celestial bodies
TROPICAL Astrological SIGNS
are distinct from the CONSTELLATIONS
with which
over centuries
they were conflated

Originally, SIGN meant simply "a Sign of the SEASON"
because
SIGNS were basically a Calender of the Seasons
which followed the Seasonal Path of the Sun on the Ecliptic

The Ascendant has a rising sign
The rising sign on the Ascendant has a planet as sign ruler

The Ascendant itself is not a Sign ruler

Click to expand...

Tell SCU about how Pluto is not only not a Sign-ruler, but isn't even iN the Chart according to your version of astrology. So, no surprise at all all that you wouldn't consider the Ascendant a ruler, regardless of how important it is to the Chart.
Also, you don't include Uranus, so his user name has no astrological meaning for you!

I discerned what I'm calling the "12/12 Pattern", which is achieved by including two of the most important factors in Astrology [IMO]--the Ascendant and the Age-indicator, which are by far the fastest and slowest of the major placements. How much do you know about the "Age of Aquarius" concept? I'm an expert on that topic.

SunConjunctUranus said:

Mention it to David, Jup. As I'm just a reader.

Click to expand...

I didn't say anyone's not free to comment. I'm just one Modern astrologer who's using both the Ascendant and the Age-indicator as Sign-rulers. J.A. is a Traditional Siderealist, so I wouldn't expect acceptance of anything new from that quarter.

david starling said:

I didn't say anyone's not free to comment. I'm just one Modern astrologer who's using both the Ascendant and the Age-indicator as Sign-rulers. J.A. is a Traditional Siderealist, so I wouldn't expect acceptance of anything new from that quarter.

Click to expand...

Okay, go ahead with your theories, I'm gonna read it, and how is it going? But sometimes I'm just going to learn from both perspectives, trad and modern. Like this simple analogy: I want to doing a dribble motion "in and out move" BUT I didn't even know how to doing basic "crossover". So that's it, just learning.