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  #1  
Unread 09-14-2014, 05:34 PM
AstroNous AstroNous is offline
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Lightbulb Origins of psychological astrology?

I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology. How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.

The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!

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Unread 09-14-2014, 06:02 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

There's a long history in the astrological literature about the quality of the soul, and this is going to be what you are looking for. We find it first (maybe) in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, where he spends a bit talking about how to tell about someone's soul using the position of Mercury and the Moon. I'm sure there is probably something about this in Valens's Anthology as well, I am just less familiar with this work.

As we move into the medieval period, the focus becomes a bit less on Mercury and the Moon and the more common indicator of an individual's soul or personality/psychology is the temperament theory where every individual is some mix of choler/melancholer/phlegm/sanguine and this unique mixture has implications for our physical health and psychological characteristics.

The biggest difference between classical and modern psychological astrology is that modern psychological astrology sees the entire birth charts as representative of the native's psyche, so that everything in a chart has some implications on someone's character. Classically this wasn't the case, and there were only a few select parts of the chart that had any direct correlation with the person that it belonged to.
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Unread 09-14-2014, 07:03 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

In English language astrology, I'd look to the writings of Dane Rudhyar, who was active throughout the mid-20th century. This wasn't psychology as a behavioural scientist would understand it today, but more akin to a mix of philosophy and the human potential movement. Psychological astrology got another boost ca. 1970 from Liz Greene and her associates, and Stephen Arroyo. However, even Greene did not have strong educational credentials in psychology. The psychology in her books tends to derive largely from the work of Carl Jung; and some even harkens back to Freud. So it is hard to say how much of psychological astrology an actual psychologist would recognize today. I note that a practising clinical psychologist usually needs at least a Master's degree in psychology or an allied field, and then s/he has to pass a board certification exam. I doubt that many astrologers have done this.

However, many of us are informed by psychology in the popular press.
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Unread 09-14-2014, 11:08 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroNous View Post

I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology. How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.

The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!

'....The recent revival of the older, pre-20th century forms of astrology in the past few decades
has led to some major differences in how “modern” and “traditional” astrologers practice and conceptualize the subject,
and the purpose was to explore some of the specific points of divergence between the approaches.
The end result was a sweeping two-hour debate that covered several important topics
related to the conceptualization, practice, and philosophy of astrology in the 21st century.....'
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2014/...rology-debate/

Also discusses the role of consciousness in astrological interpretation
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Unread 09-14-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

You're going to have to define what you mean by psychological astrology....

In my opinion, most people who think they are doing psychological astrology are not, because to do psychological astrology, you must have training in both counseling or clinical psychology and training in astrology. Its very rare to have both of those in one person.
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Unread 09-15-2014, 04:11 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

It is also worth mentioning that traditional astrology dealt with the "soul" in a way that we today would define as personality; and the 4 elements translated into "temperaments" that were also close to personality types. But psychology? This is a modern discipline and university subject which has gone through big changes over the course of its history, but today seems closer to "behavioural science" or even neuroscience. So it isn't anything we really find astrologers engaging in at a professional level, so far as I know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

Alan Leo had no education in psychology (and little formal education,) but like the other theosophists, he had a "modern" interest in how the mind worked-- as they understood it at the turn of the 20th century. Theirs was a blend of books on personality, philosophy, and esotericism. It may be a misnomer to call much of what we do "psychology."
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Unread 09-15-2014, 04:37 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Thanks, Zarathu-- yes, there are a few of you legitimate psychologists with degrees, in the astrological fold-- perhaps .66% is about the right percentage.
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Unread 09-16-2014, 04:36 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

I was kind of hoping that the OP would return and share more about what they were asking about psychological astrology.....
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Unread 09-16-2014, 08:24 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

THE CENTRE FOR PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGY

The CPA provides a unique workshop, seminar and professional training programme,
designed to foster the cross-fertilisation of the fields of astrology
and depth, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology
http://www.cpalondon.com/



Centre for Psychological Astrology was founded by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas in 1983.
In 2011 the CPA changed
to a new Plato痴 Academy style of learning. http://www.cpalondon.com/new%20cpa.html Here you can learn psychological astrology,
attend public seminars, study online,
receive mailings and browse the CPA Press astrology books. This is learning for the sheer love and joy of learning
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Unread 09-17-2014, 12:44 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Yeah, well. We can imagine how much current academic psychology is in that program.
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  #11  
Unread 09-17-2014, 08:24 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

You are an individual born on a specific day,time, month, year and in a specific place.
That's what sets you apart and gives you a particular life journey
http://www.psychologicalastrology.com


What is Psychological Astrology?

opinions include the following:

QUOTE

'.... psychological astrology looks at the birth chart as a map of who we are,
our life journey, our complexes
and can help us get a clearer picture of who we really are.
It can help us work out our problems and clarify our goals.
A psychological astrologer, such as John Green,
will help you understand where you are going in life,
why problems recur in your life
and
teach you how to develop yourself better.
This can lead to helping you have a greater understanding of yourself,
your relationships with others and the direction of your life.....'


'...Psychological astrology developed from an understanding of the works of Freud and Jung.
Jung was fascinated with astrology,
and cast horoscopes himself
to "find a clue to the core of psychological truth.
"
Probably the best known exponent of psychological astrology
is Dr Liz Greene, a Jungian analyst,
she set up the Centre for Psychological Astrology in London 1983
with the late Howard Sasportas, a psychosynthesis psychotherapist
to foster the cross-fertilization of astrology
with the fields of depth, humanistic, and transpersonal psychology....'
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  #12  
Unread 09-17-2014, 04:30 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

The problem with Liz Greene's psychological astrology is that we aren't sure she really has a degree in psychology. Last I heard she still wasn't saying where it was from. Make of that what you may.
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Unread 09-17-2014, 07:40 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

The problem with Liz Greene's psychological astrology is that we aren't sure she really has a degree in psychology. Last I heard she still wasn't saying where it was from. Make of that what you may.
Curiouser and curiouser
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Unread 09-20-2014, 04:40 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

No, it wasn't from UCLA, but from an unaccredited and now-defunct diploma mill in Los Angles. http://www.astroamerica.com/greenebio2.html

In 2010 Liz Greene received a Ph. D. from an accredited English university, the University of Bristol, but it is in history, not psychology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Greene
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Unread 09-20-2014, 01:13 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

NOEL TYL offers Lessons that cover every detail of psychologically rich, deep analytical astrology apparently
following the text Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology
- The Professional Manual
(by Noel Tyl, Llewellyn Publications), a 1,000-page manual
. http://www.noeltyl.com/masters.html


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Unread 09-21-2014, 03:22 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

According to Wikipedia, Noel Tyl graduated from Harvard U. in 1958, with a B. A. degree in Social Relations, which was a mix of psych, soc, and anthro. His pre-astrology career was as an opera singer. There's not a lot of actual psychology here-- just some undergraduate courses. This isn't to say that Tyl wouldn't read widely in psychology, but it's a little different than a rigorous degree program in psychology.

Becoming a clinical (practicing) psychologist today in most western countries requires at minimum a Master's degree, a lot of pre-certification clinical hours under senior supervision, plus passing a licensing exam. Does anyone know of any "modern psychological astrologers" who have done this?
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Unread 09-21-2014, 03:34 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Way to go, Zarathu! I take my virtual hat off to you. But how many astrologers who publish "psychological astrology" books or articles have your credentials?
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Unread 11-28-2014, 12:11 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Zarathu wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
In my opinion, most people who think they are doing psychological astrology are not, because to do psychological astrology, you must have training in both counseling or clinical psychology and training in astrology.
and waybread added:
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Psychology "is a modern discipline and university subject which has gone through big changes over the course of its history, but today seems closer to "behavioural science" or even neuroscience. So it isn't anything we really find astrologers engaging in at a professional level, so far as I know. . . . It may be a misnomer to call much of what we do "psychology."
If astrology were a developed research discipline the relevant psychological categories and functions would be an integral part of the astrological curriculum, and a degree in it would be an intro into that research community, a route to effectively contribute to it, and an indication that the holder exceeds a minimum level of knowledge and competence. But it isn't, and present-day astrologers, much less our distant predecessors, can't even say unequivocally what those categories and functions are. At astrology's current level of development what makes an astrologer a psychological astrologer isn't a degree but an orientation, one in which what is sought is psychological information rather than information about events and circumstances. I doubt that the information provided by astrologers, psychological or otherwise, is accurate, but a degree in one or more psychological disciplines, which individually might or might not be relevant to astrology, will not in itself enable such astrologers to provide better information. The problem with looking for astrological correlates of modern psychological categories and functions is that we don't know, absent appropriate and sufficiently rigorous astrological research, what kinds of information astrology actually provides. In my opinion it provides information about psychodynamic states, and about events only to the extent that they're probable outcomes of such states. The ideas of depth psychologists Freud, Jung, Abraham Maslow and Erik Erikson, of lifespan development theorists Daniel Levinson and Gail Sheehy, and of cognitive development theorists Jean Piaget and L.S. Vygotsky are strikingly relevant to astrology. The contents of their theories, appropriately recast and contexted, are the stuff of astrological effects. These effects are time based, and their timing corresponds to planetary periods. For instance Freud's ego, Jung's persona, Levinson's and Sheehy's Age 30 Transition, Maslow's esteem needs, Erikson's Industry vs. Inferiority stage, Piaget's Concrete Operational stage, Vygotsky's Crisis at Age 7 and Grant Lewi's Saturn Return all refer to the same phenomenon, a psychological drive that exists continuously but which intensifies and comes to the forefront at 7⅓-year intervals before receding again into the background. Other drives correspond to other planetary periods.

From this perspective the evolution of psychological astrology is the evolution of astrologers' understanding of the effects astrology actually encompasses, and of how those effects are indicated. That's how I read Kaiousei no Senshi's useful comments in his initial response to the OP, and waybread's inclusion of English-language astrologers Arroyo, Greene and Rudhyar as more recent contributors, to which I would add Grant Lewi and some of his transitist predecessors. However, the lack of academic degrees worried about by waybread, Zarathu and Kaiousei no Senshi would be relevant only if astrology were much more advanced than it actually is (in which case the degrees would be in astrology and would include relevant psychological knowledge).

Last edited by spock; 12-12-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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Unread 11-28-2014, 03:56 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Will the real psychology please stand up? Astrologers don't get to define what it is. Credentialed psychologists do. And we kid ourselves if we think that references to some old humanistic psychologists of the 19th and 20th centuries is going to cut it.

Psychology, like any discipline, moves forward. It builds upon the work of its Great Ones, but it also sometimes critiques and disavows earlier work that proved to be unsustainable. Freud's fabricated research "results" would be a major example. But surely you know this? I'd like to see "psychological astrologers" cite current work in psychology. Journals such as the following may be of interest: http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...umes&jcode=rel
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...umes&jcode=aca
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...umes&jcode=amp

But I don't hold my breath.

For the record, Gail Sheehy's degrees are in English, home economics, and journalism.

I take your point that astrology is theoretically weakly developed. But this doesn't mean it is sensible or wise for non-credentialed people to identify their branch of the field as psychological astrology. It just shows our ignorance.

Liz Greene's credentials are a case in point. She did finally get a Ph. D. late in life from an accredited university, but it isn't in psychology.
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Last edited by waybread; 11-28-2014 at 04:05 AM.
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Unread 11-28-2014, 04:30 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock
However, the lack of academic degrees worried about by waybread, Zarathu and Kaiousei no Senshi would be relevant only if astrology were much more advanced than it actually is (in which case the degrees would be in astrology and would include relevant psychological knowledge).
Hello, I can't speak for waybread or Zarathu, but I don't see the plights of psychological astrology as really any different from, say medical astrology in the modern age (aside from the inherent differences in the ability to verify). I, personally, am more likely to consider the opinion and practices of someone who has formal education in medicine or a sub-discipline of it over someone who does not. In the past, most university trained doctors were astrologers, so their texts on the subject were basically their polished up case files. Similarly, I am more likely to trust the opinions and practices of someone with a degree in psychology if I were to study psychological astrology.

If I'm reading your post correctly, it seems like you are putting most of the focus on the astrological part (that if astrology were more academically accepted, they would be astrologers who do psychology, not psychologists who do astrology). However, my main focus is on the part of the astrologer who is able to take their education and profession and apply that to their astrological work.

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  #21  
Unread 11-28-2014, 10:27 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

I think we should avoid using words like "psychological" unless we mean "belonging to the academic field of psychology". we can invent our own terms to specify our orientation...

When I was at university, we had frequent debate seminars with psychology students on the clinical "track", and sometimes we also exchanged courses. I even spent a semester visiting the daytime hospital with them (treating schizophrenic patients). Their coursework was about the patients, and mine was about how psychology informed and influenced the way they perceived and interacted with them. How using a professional, symptom-oriented vocabulary and adopting a pre-defined professional attitude changes the way we perceive another person. There was a debate at the end of the semester and it was very interesting for all of us to exchange our impressions and viewpoints.

Before psychology laid claim to the psyche, it was in everything, it participated in and manifested through the whole world. Today, we would convey the same idea by saying that "the world of experience is produced by the man who experiences it" (Neisser). It is possible to know ourselves through various ways, through art, philosophy, etc. Psychology is not the one and only "legitimate" discourse on the human psyche.

and I don't think that astrology should adopt the "glasses" through which psychology views the human being, the field does its job pretty well without the help of astrology. I think that astrology should go on developing its own, unique view of the psyche, and in the meantime interact with psychology, philosophy, art, religion, etc.

It can bring so much more if psychologists/artists/etc combine these disciplines in their own, unique way (that's what Zarathu is doing, for example), rather than study some pre-set "psychological/artistic/etc astrology". When philosophy, art, astrology and psychology (and other fields) challenge and/or complete each other, it helps us develop the flexibility of perspective that is a must if we want to grow in understanding...
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  #22  
Unread 11-28-2014, 11:14 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post

Other than me? Glen Perry, PhD. But then, I'M NOT A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, I'm a counseling psychologist....I have a Masters in Counseling Psychology....
Unfortunatey,....in clinical practice a conflict of perspective exists between ones 'religious beliefs and commitments' and the 'scientific and professional objectives of contemporary psychology'......it even goes so far, as to undermine the credibility of a practicing clinical psychologist.

I know from personal, first hand experience that qualified practioners in the field of psychology have huge difficulties surviving in practice, if they are vocal about their beliefs.....religious or otherwise.

This might explain the lack of practicing psychologists / astrologers.
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Unread 11-28-2014, 05:23 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Great post, Therese.

I think that either modern psychological astrology needs to drop its pretenses to being psychological, or else astrologers should get the academic qualifications to come by the term honestly and credibly. For sure-- we could use more people with a B. S. (B. Sc.) in psychology and a Master's degree in psychology, counseling, or a closely allied field.

It didn't help that Liz Greene got her first "Ph. D." from a now-defunct diploma mill in LA (not UCLA or USC) with a "dissertation" topic only loosely affiliated with psychology. Apparently that was sufficient for her to hang out her shingle as a practising psychologist in the UK in 1971. http://www.astroamerica.com/greenebio2.html

It's OK to bash the academics or to praise the early psychological astrologers like Greene for their contributions to astrology. It's good for us to keep apprised of recent developments in psychology in lay-person's terms. But these are different issues than borrowing a term to which few of us can legitimately lay claim. It just makes us look like a bunch of dummies to claim something without evidence to support us.

Zarathu is one with rights to the term. Therese? How many others?

Astrology can legitimately lay claim to a much older delineation of personality: temperament.
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Last edited by waybread; 11-28-2014 at 05:26 PM.
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Unread 11-28-2014, 06:12 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

*No, I am not a psychologist, we shared courses within the framework of an interdisciplinary doctoral program in the human sciences. And no, I don't have my phd yet, either. absolutorium done, thesis overdue, lol.
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Last edited by Therese; 11-28-2014 at 06:28 PM.
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Unread 11-29-2014, 11:55 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Will the real psychology please stand up? Astrologers don't get to define what it is. Credentialed psychologists do.
Really? The Online Etymology Dictionary offers this: "psychology (n.): 1650s, "study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probably coined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greek psykhe- "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche) + logia "study of" (see -logy). Meaning "study of the mind" first recorded 1748, from Christian Wolff's "Psychologia empirica" (1732); main modern behavioral sense is from early 1890s." As for the current sense of the word, putting "psychology: definition" in the google search field yields: "the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context; the mental characteristics or attitude of a person or group; the mental and emotional factors governing a situation or activity."

Academic psychologists didn't create the word psychology, nor has it been patented so as to forbid all usages not certified by them. Rather, they use it in the title of their disciplines as a descriptive indicator of what they do. People who use the word in that context understand that the word is being used in a more specialized manner than its general sense, one which includes "the study of" as an antecedent and the means of study as a further specification. Psychology doesn't even mean the same thing, in terms of its fully specified meaning and context, in every academic discipline that includes it in its title. The subject matter (and means of study) of developmental psychology, cognitive psychology, evolutionary psychology, educational psychology, personality psychology, etc. are not coextensive. Each studies certain aspects of the mind from a particular perspective. Developmental psychology, for instance, is interested in those mental processes that develop over time. Cognitive psychology studies the mind from an information-processing perspective. Psychological astrology is the study of time-based mental processes, with "time-based" referring more specifically to planetary periods. It's obviously not as advanced in the understanding of its subject matter as any of the established academic psychology disciplines are of theirs, but that doesn't mean psychological astrologers shouldn't be allowed to use a word with a generally understood referent (i.e., the mind) to suggest what they do. Psychology in all of the contexts just mentioned is being used as a tag, like the title of a book, one that hints at or implies what's inside. The fully detailed specification of the contents can only be gotten at by reading the book, on the one hand, or mastering the discipline on the other.

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Psychology, like any discipline, moves forward. It builds upon the work of its Great Ones, but it also sometimes critiques and disavows earlier work that proved to be unsustainable. Freud's fabricated research "results" would be a major example. But surely you know this? I'd like to see "psychological astrologers" cite current work in psychology.
Astrology, too, moves forward and builds upon the work of its Great Ones, albeit at a glacial pace due to not having yet crossed what might be termed the empirical threshold. A major impediment to crossing that threshold is astrologers' characteristic (mis)use of words. Virtually all treat a given word as if it belonged to a particular planet. (Your treating the word psychology as if it belonged to a particular discipline is a comparably erroneous usage.) It would be a major advance if a sufficient number of astrologers realized that a particular word, like ambition, doesn't go with Saturn regardless of meaning. Rather, it's an observed meaning or effect that recurs at Saturn intervals, of which one of the senses of ambition, something along the lines of a desire to succeed at a profession, is an example, that goes with Saturn. In the short run this would give astrologers less to say, because they would no longer be able to make a given chart (even an erroneous one) fit a given event (even an erroneous one). But in the long run it would give us far more to say, because over time we'd be able to say more, and with more accuracy, about what predictably coincides with a given configuration, as well as which configurations and kinds of configurations (not all!) even have terrestrial correspondents. And what we'd be able to say would be largely psychological, because I believe astrological effects are psychological (albeit not coextensive with the psychological effects any given academic discipline studies). That's why, although I have no problem with psychological astrologers using the word psychology to indicate that astrology as they practice it has to do with the mind rather than external events, I don't use that term to describe myself. To me it's redundant, the equivalent of saying wet water.

Quote:
I take your point that astrology is theoretically weakly developed. But this doesn't mean it is sensible or wise for non-credentialed people to identify their branch of the field as psychological astrology. It just shows our ignorance.
Actually, I think your argument demonstrates ignorance of the relationship between observations, words, meanings, and legitimate usage, an ignorance characteristic of astrologers.
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